Factory Ammunition- What's really on the inside!!??

As a custom ammunition mfg, I do a lot of custom load developments for rifles. Sometimes I get calls from hunters/shooters that have tried multiple factory ammunition brands/types to get their rifles dialed in. Sometimes, no matter what they feed it, it's not good enough. They want something better. A few weeks ago I got a similar call for 2 rifles. One a 7 STW and one a 257 Weatherby. The factory ammunition was very inconsistent and did not shoot well in either of these custom rifles. The customer asked me to pull the factory bullets, and use the high end brass to load for my ammo. No problem! Whenever I pull bullets on factory ammunition, I weigh their powder charges to see how (in)consistent it is. I am using a high end Sartorius digital scale accurate to .02 grains. Here is what I found!

7 STW- 140 grain Accubond factory ammo. I pulled 28 rounds and weighed the powder charges.
The average powder charge on 28 rounds was 80.08 grains. The high was 80.52 grains and the low was 79.74 grains. That's a .78 grain extreme spread.

257 Wby 110 grain AB factory ammo. I pulled 25 rounds and weighed each powder charge.
The average was 66.56 grains. The high was 67.24 and the low was 66.08. That's a 1.16 grain extreme spread on 25 rounds!

The 7 STW had a .78 grain powder extreme spread and the 257 Wby had a large 1.16 grain powder extreme spread. So, what does this high extreme spread mean? When loading precision ammunition to tune the ammunition to the rifle, you often load your test loads up in about .3 grain increments. For example, Load A may be 44.0 grains, load B may be 44.3 grains, Load C may be 44.6, Load D 44.9, and Load E 45.2. These 5 test loads have a 1.2 grain spread from start to finish. Within these A-E test loads, you can find a sweet spot where the rifle likes to shoot. Generally, a .3 grain increase in powder charge will increase the bullet velocity about 25-30 fps. So a full grain of powder will generally increase your bullet velocity about 90-100 fps. This .3 grain increment is small enough to see where the rifle wants to shoot well to find the sweet spot. If the factory 7 STW ammunition on 25+ rounds already has a .78 and the factory 257 Wby ammo has a 1.16 grain spread, that will not allow the rifle to stay within a given accuracy node. This will open up the groups and cause inconsistent shots. Plus, the .78 grain spread on the STW ammo will cause about 65-80 fps spread. The 1.16 grain powder difference on the 257 Wby ammo will cause about 96-120 fps spread. That's a lot!!!

Also, what I noticed on the 257 Wby ammo is a lot of charges were on the high side and on the low side. The average charge was 66.56 grains, but most of the powder charges were closer to the max and the min charges, not the average. There were not many close to the average charge. Also, when I have done these in the past, the smaller the opening (diameter of the round), the worse (or higher) the spread is on the powder charges. The 257 Wby held true to this also.

If you look at these 2 targets below, I am going up in .3 grain increments in powder charge with these test loads. In the first target, you can see a noticeable decrease in group size with Load C. This was a 1.032" group shot at 300 yards. The second target is a 243 Win. You can see the top right group about 1" at 300 yards, also. I like using these test targets, because it shows a perfect load work up with the normal signs of what the rifle likes when shooting. You can see some openness, then the groups start to string a little, then you find your sweet spot and the group tightens up. This sweet spot is what you load to. When your scales are accurate to .02 grains, that's accurate to 1 kernel of powder. When the powder charges have a difference of .78 and 1.16 grains, this alone will open up your groups and make for inconsistent ammo. When you pull the bullets and weigh the powder charges, you can see what's really on the inside!!!!

Wow, great write up Chad!

Thanks for sharing.

I suspected there would be a greater variation than hand reloaders can control but that is far beyond what I would have thought. Thanks for the info, Chad.

Thanks for the insight. I had no idea that factory ammo was that inconsistent. I wonder if the 'good stuff' like Federal premium or Black Hills or Nosler Premium has anywhere near that much powder variance.

One of the companies you listed above is this ammo!!!

I am going to go out on a limb and say it was Nosler.

I just want to add that first target is a factory rifle and the owner is a really cool dude.

Chad's ammo with out a doubt extremely consistent

good info

Great info Chad thanks.

Chad, that is what I have found. I pulled down some Win." W-mart" 30-30, I found out of the 20 projectiles only 5 were 150gr most were lighter and 2 were 154. Powder weight was all over with only 5 were the same.

Great study!

Whst velocity are you getting with your loads with the .257 wby 110 grain bullet?

You gotta wonder about all those articles that have been written about this rifle, or that, where they publish the results using a number of different factory loads. It's been a long time since I read a gun rag, and the way my memory performs as I get older I might not recall in a week...but sometimes factory ammo performs very well indeed. But I suspect that it might be learned that those particular cartridges were loaded with spherical powders if I were to dig up a bunch of these articles. It seems like a safe bet, anyway. I've never been a believer in trying to meter coarse extruded powders.

RR, you got it right. I don't know why they use the extruded powders for metering by volume. You can not get a consistent weight doing that. There are plenty of slower burning spherical powders that will work well.

The top target is with a 257 Wby shooting the 115 grain Berger. The 110 will be moving a little faster, about 30-50 fps maybe.

Good write up Chad, agree with you and RR about extruded powders.


Something else it may be a different powder lot to lot with factory ammo.

All same lot verified.

I've only compared pulled bullets since the powder (mix) is unknown and therefore tough to decide what all the other variables mean. I can't ID industrial powder or primers. Who knows their primers? Yeah, someone does.

A friend bought a new Ruger Blackhawk .357/9mm convertible (not easy to get any more), waited months during the shortage. Finally came in. Wouldn't shoot for crap. Ended up selling it off without using any 9mm at all or changing ammo (either mine or another store bought). Since he had no other .357 he gave me the left-overs. I wanted the brass.

I pulled them and found these super hard cast goofy kinda pointed hollow base for some unknown reason poor excuses for projectiles.

A monkey could crap a better bullet. They're in my "To Melt" area. I wanted the brass.

Great write up.


Now I know why I cant shoot straight!!

Good stuff Chad!

We know there are some chamberings that just seem to shoot well, even on factory ammo. Two prime examples are the .308 Win and the 6.5 Creedmoor. They are very easy to load, but some guys just don't have the time or the space. Hornady has made some great 6.5 Creedmoor ammo and lately made some bad shooting ammo. Have you pulled that ammo apart?

Seems the vast majority of .308's will shoot Federal Gold Metal Match well, some shoot it very small. Have you pulled apart FGGM before?

Would you agree the likelyhood of a short action shooting factory ammo well is higher than a long action shooting factory ammo well?

One thing is that the short action calibers 308 and 243 were both developed and originally loaded with ball powders. It would not be surprising to find that most manufacturers still use ball powders to load them. Alliant powder is owned by the same parent company as Federal Ammunition so I wouldn't be surprised to find they use spherical powders. Here's an interesting Wikipedia entry on ball powder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_propellant

Great write up Chad. All the more reason why I roll my own!

I load my own.

Me too.

This is why.

Great info Chad and exactly how I load for my rifles.

Well, when it seems that the major manufacturers appear to powder the cases using a shovel, Chad's report isn't all that unexpected.
Thanks for proving that at least in this case, they hold to what I've experienced.

What do you guys recommend as far as scales go? I have a Frankford Arsenal digital, Hornady digital, and Lee balance. I've lost a little confidence as I see 3 different weights on different scales. All 3 are cheapos. Im thinking I need to invest a little more in a good scale and was thinking of steering away from digital.

Chad, this is a question for you. If you have a factory round that you can compare to a base round (known to be good). Couldn't you just weigh the factory rounds to the baseline to gauge without taking it apart? Or do you have to weigh each individual piece to verify?

There is some variation in bullets and brass so it would be hard to make a decision based on overall weight.

No. Mainly, the brass. The brass case weight will vary by 1-2 grains easily. The bullet weight will be very consistent, and may only vary by .3-.5 grains. So to know how much variance there is on the powder inside, the only way to know is to take it apart. The ammo that is made with a ball or spherical powder will have the most consistency in powder charge weight. This is why on my bulk and bulk match 308 Win ammo, I run a ball, spherical, or a very small extruded powder. This will meter the best and give you the tightest powder charge consistency from round to round.

I have a manufacturing background and my head is exploding. I'm thinking about process; In-line QA checks, equipment calibrations, sample data points. The cost savings alone not overloading powder into high numbers of rounds over months and years would be astronomical.

RCBS Chargemaster will change your life! Yes, it's still digital, but it is pretty darn accurate. When I was throwing a powder charge a few tenths under what I wanted, then placing the pan on the scale and trickling the rest of the way, 50 rounds took 45 minutes. With the Charge Master, 50 rounds takes 25 minutes.

Unless, of course your budget allows, then get a Promethius.

I love my Chargemaster and use the scale only sometimes when loading a few rounds, or just some test rounds.I used beams for a long time, but wind and I guess calibration made several of them read differently.
But I'm just a MOP shooter.. Minute of pig. One of these days, I need to spend some time with FiremanJG.

Wow, that aint cheap. But I supposed I've dropped $75 on 3 cheapos and should have just saved a bit more for 1 good one.

My charge master is better than my hornady one. Although on varget it still has issues. I want a Prometheus....

It amasses me that Factory loads are not more consistent on the powder charges.
I like jumping .2 grains between loads when working them up. Just the way I was taught. Fire 1 round then A 3 round of the test load. Let the barrel cool & then fire 1 round then the 3 shot test load group again, and so on till all the test loads have been fired. Just my way.

Overthrows are common with cylindrical powder. If you know a guy with a lathe an insert in the end of the auger makes everything better. Went from 25 overthrows out of 50 before insert, to 5-10 out of 50 afterwards.

I have also heard the McDonald's straws work well

My digital scale was $800+, IIRC.

I tried it. Didn't really help much. Brass 3/4" long, turned down to .308" O.D. and a 1/4" bore down the center isa huge help.

I pulled more bullets from some more factory ammo, and saw similar results again. I didn't write anything down since I was in a hurry, but same high spread.

Like someone else asked have you pulled apart and "normal" size cartridges? Seems like in large cases like 7mm STW and 257 WBY there would be much more room for error. How about a 30-06 family cartage and a 308 family cartridge?

In a competition world factory ammo may not stack up, and a LR shooting it may not, but for what the vast majority of ammo is sold for I'm sure it fills the bill just fine.

One thing I noticed when I switched from factory to hand loading was the lot to lot differences. I would have to re-sight my gun every year when I bought a new box of REM 130 grain core locks. I haven't re-sighted the same gun since I started hand loading for it, not even when I changed lots of powder or bullets, I check it but its still on.

There is a guy over on Predator Masters that makes inserts for the Chargemaster. I got one, and so did a couple of my friends. It went from 10-15 overthrows in 50 rounds to 1 or 2 per 50. Best $12 I ever spent. It totally changed my machine. Both my friends had similar results.

I thought others would post their pulled results. Silly me.

Can you share his contact info? That sounds like a good route to go.

This is the guy I bought my insert from, aluminum or brass. Also makes another that will fit inside for an additional $4.
Works great with Varget. I saw his ad on 6mm Benchrest if you want to see pictures.


Send inquiries to davidmoore6567@netzero.com

Here is the thread where I found the guy. It is the same David Moore listed above.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777008

Thanks, I will reach out to him.

Just an update to the inserts:

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=541&f=5556&t=13710820

....and Mr Moore is going to join the forum shortly.

I'm here. I'll post an add here in the classified section as soon as my permission gets thru. I've been making the inserts going on two years now and have sold many on the AccurateShooter and Sniper's Hide. I see you guys found them on Predator Masters too.