Hollow Point Bullet Question

About hollow point bullets for personal protection, self defense.
Does it really make a difference if the HP is "pre-filled" like Hornady Critical Defense or if the HP is left empty/unfilled like most other brands.
Hornady's advertising spiel makes it sound more than reasonable that their pre-filled HP is the best and only ammo anyone should be using for self defense because (or so they say) it won't get clogged by leather or heavy clothing. And the Hornady website shows what's implied as other manufacturer's unfilled HPs that malfunctioned (didn't mushroom) on terminal effect.
Background for the question is that DW wants to ditch her little 38 revolver for a 380ACP like one of her friends just bought - and I can hardly blame her, it's a super-nice little pistol. Rightly or wrongly, it's my feeling that with her going to the 380 she needs all the help she can get from the lighter caliber and if having the HP "pre-filled" will help, then that's the route to go.

There's only been a few products or improvements to products that make me go wow, and the Hornady critical defense bullet is one of them. Their rubber/polymer fill they put into the HP part of the bullet does solve a problem. It does not fill with foreign material, like a traditional HP does. It also provides guaranteed expansion in soft tissue, where other HP will not. I carry the Hornady ammo with these bullets in my 40 cal.

On the 380 idea, that's a personal preference. If the option is a 380 or not to carry, I'll take a 380. But there are other calibers that will perform better with greater energy and speed.

I use the Hornady Critcal defense in my daily carry also; Glock 27. My wife had a 38 revolver and a CHL when I met her but wouldn't ever carry it because of bulk and weight. I bought her a LCP 380 with critical defense rounds - it's small enough that she will actually carry it. I'd rather her have a less powerful gun on her than have a harder hitting gun sitting at home.

I like Hornady ammo. That being said I'm not convinced the critical defense hollow point is any better than any other hollow point. What I personally look at is the speed of the bullet as it exits the barrel.

I will never understand the concept behind clogging up your hollow point with material before its ever fired. It goes against everything I have learned over the years about hollow points. With that being said I intend to pick up a few boxes to test out on different materials just to see for myself.

On the 380 note: Best ammo I have seen for the 380 so far is the PDX1. Me and my brother tested the 380 Speer Gold Dot and the Winchester PDX1 side by side and to my surprised the PDX1 blew away the competition. I am a HUGE Gold Dot fan but out of the 3 Gold Dots we tested in 380 one was lost in the berm due to over penetration (pretty sure it failed to open up) and the other two didn't look much like a hollow point should at all. 380 is the only caliber I have ever seen a Gold Dot fail to open in. I have also seen Remington UMC hollow points fail to open in 380 as well.

I have found that the 380 is one caliber where you have to watch your bullet choice very very carefully!

PDX1 on top, and Gold Dots on the bottom.

Do you care to rephrase that? I think the concept is actually more like the hollow cavity being filled with fabric, leather, or what-have-you prior to encountering flesh or soft tissue thereby inhibiting expansion. I'm pretty sure no one is concerned with something clogging the hollow cavity before the round is ever fired.

So how is filling the HP/cavity before it hits fabric going to improve it from being filled on compact?

A standard HP bullet will clog up with whatever material it hits before it reaches soft tissue- leather, denim, cloth, etc. This heavy material can fill the HP of the bullet and make it act like a FMJ. It will penetrate deep and not open up. This is a proven with terminal ballistics testing. The Hornady CD bullet fills this with a rubber type material that does not allow the clothing and such to fill the HP up, yet does not allow the HP to open up either. When the Hornady CD bullet reaches soft tissue, the soft tissue causes the rubber material to compress and hydraulically open and expand the HP. No other bullet works like this. The Hornady CD bullet will go through most materials, and still open up when it hits soft tissue. Sure, a standard HP bullet is a good SD bullet to have. But this Hornady CD bullet takes it to a new level of performance. There are good bullets, and then there are better bullets. The Hornady CD bullet is definitely a better bullet.

Clogged is clogged. I don't care what the material is. If it aint flesh it don't belong in the cavity. JMO

Sounds like a soft point/round nose/fmj would have been a much better solution than making a hollow point that doesn't act like a hollow point. Also... what keeps the leather/denim/fabric from making the rubber material compress? Sounds like a lot of marketing to me.

This is on the right track. The simple answer is YES, the critical defense and critical duty is the best ammo available. I went to a Hornady range day where they set up 6 different scenarios, all based on the FBI standards for measuring a bullets effectiveness. To make the test fair, all Hornady ammo was fired from a spectators weapon. This was tested against Winchester Ranger in both 9mm and 357 Sig.

The first test was clothing, 2 layers, a denim jacket and shirt, followed by a gel block. In this test the ammo peformmed as well as others, although my 357 duty ammo over penetrated and exited the back of the 20 inch block resulting in a failure. The same test with same brand of 9mm passed the test although it did not open up uniformly and almost came out the top of the gel. Both 9mm and 357sig from Hornady passed the test and had a uniform expansion.
Test 2 was was through sheet rock and then the same clothing as above. The 9mm Win passed but did not retain its full jacket. The 357 Sig Win exited the back for a failure. The 9mm and 357 sig Hornady both passed with uniformed expansion and did not separate from the jacket.
Test 3 was bare gel. 9mm win passed but failed to expand, 357 sig once again over penetrated. 9mm and 357 Hornady had good expansion and didnt exit the gel.
Test 4 was sheet metal into gel. 9mm and 357 Winchester passed but the results were poor. Both had un uniformed expansion and lost parts of their jacket. 9 and 357 Hornady penetrated almost equally and had very unifrom expansion and maintained a straight course.
Test 5 was through automotive glass and into gel block 6 inches away. Glass does very strange things to bullets. 9mm Win separated the jacket from the core, leaving 2 wound channels neither of which was very deep. 357 Winchester also separated creating 2 wound channels and the core of the bullet exited the gel block after only being inside for 4 inches. The 9mm and 357 Hornady stayed intact, had almost perfect expansion and penetrated about 6 inches.

I cant remember what the 6th test was, but the Winchester Ranger failed 4 of the 6 test, Hornady passed all the test. I never gave it much thought, but after seeing it firsthand I am now a believer. On top of that, I carry a 357 Sig because I also though faster was better, but in the case of the test results, the 9mm performed equally as well as the 357Sig. If my department ever changes tot he Hornady Critical Duty then I will switch to 9mm.

Guys a simple youtube search will show you a bunch of videos that prove the theory behind the Hornady bullet. Yes it works and works well. Not trying to be an [censored] but the engineers at Hornady are a little more qualifed on the matter than a few guys on a forum. You can always order some ballistic gel and test yourself like the people on the videos, if you do I bet you will be carrying Hornady in your CCW like me.

Can I get some ballistic gel that acts like bone & muscle on PPC ?? What about if the fellow being shot has some telephone books inside his windbreaker?

Then you move to a head shot!

And if by PPC you are referring to PCP, refer to my answer above.

The world must be flat and the engineers at Hornady don't know a thing about terminal ballistics!

The FBI test should say it all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYwnZt0j7co

Where is the comparison to other bullets? or the "hollow" hollow points?

Not saying they don't work, but is it like so many of the other rifle/ammo inventions as of late, solving a problem that isn't really there?

Really?
You ask him first to look up the # for Domino's Pizza, then pop 'em a cap when he pulls it out.
Sheesh; I thought everybody knew that . . .

That was the comparison to other bullets. Go find the youtube videos of a traditional HP being shot into ballistics gel through glass, metal, leather and denim, and you will see they clog up with the material, and do not open up or expand in gel. If you are shooting someone naked, then your traditional HP bullets will work just fine.

I'm of the opinion that fmj is best in 380 for defense.
But hey I could be wrong.

Really? Kinda reaching a little far there, what if they are wearing a bulletproof vest? We can what if all day if you want but that facts are the science is there to prove this ammo works and there is a need for it. I personally don't care what other people carry in their guns but I have piece of mind knowing what's in mine.

Didn't mean to upset so many. This is an old argument and has been discussed at great length and by many people, just as the various tests mentioned earlier. I don't care what type gun, ammo, barrel length, etc you use and I should have put a page of funny faces so I wouldn't hurt any feelings.

http://www.thebangswitch.com/understanding-ballistics-gel/

I believe several of these bullets could be used.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammo/best-new-personal-defense-handgun-ammo-2014/

Just trying to show that there are many factors to consider.

http://www.tactical-life.com/gear/defense-loads-of-choice-the-word-from-the-street/

Aw, you're just no fun.

What would the Hornady guys know about bullets anyway?

Thanks for reminding us that if it is on You Tube then it is true. And are you saying Hornady is the only company that has good engineers. And it is apparent you have not read what Hornady has to say about the ammo.

Wow, what a fantastic sig line

Not that I've personally experienced it or done the tests...but I've read quite a few articles that showed how bad sheet rock filled up a hollow point and actually made the bullet penetrate and travel further inside of a structure than fmj ball ammo. The stories described that a hollow point may not be the best or safest personal defense round to fire inside of an apartment or house in that a miss could potentially allow a hollow point to travel further into adjoining rooms. Again, just a topic of conversation I've read about...

I can see this is getting to be pointless , no not everything on the internet is true but some of these videos are pretty straight forward. Please englighten me on what Hornady has to say about their own ammo? And as far as other companies engineers I don't remember discussing them, I was only talking about this one type of ammo on how it does work and that there is a logical need for it.

I have heard of long range silhouette shooters filling up hollow points with play dough and letting them dry before competitions.

Don't forget those "Engineers" putting together and QA'ing Hornady ammo have been
known to screw the pooch occasionally a well. Although their Critical Duty handgun
ammo seems to get more care than some of their loaded hunting ammo.

Yeah and their job is to make hornady money. Has anyone scraped the magic polymer tip off? I just don't believe that if the HP clogging is the reason the bullets don't work that clogging them from the get go is the solution.

I guess the polymer tips on BTs, Accubonds, and A-Maxes inhibit expansion also then.

The polymer tips perform the exact same way as the rubber in the hps.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. I could write a book about how flawed that comparison is though.

The key here is velocity. The impact velocity of most pistol rounds is at or below 1K FPS. Because of this low impact velocity a hollow point is needed to aid in the expansion of the bullet. Rifle bullets have velocity on their side so no hollow point is needed for the "mushroom" effect at higher impact velocities. That's why you don't see many hollow point rifle bullets because it is not needed. The polymer tip on the Accubond, BT's, A-Max, etc is there for aerodynamics......not to prevent a hollow point cavity from filling up with material, flesh, etc. Slow those Accubonds, BT's, etc. down to pistol impact velocities and see what happens.

I aint knocking the Critical Defense ammo because I haven't tried it. I am just saying that it goes against everything I have leaned about hollow point pistol ammo over the years.

I believe that Nosler will tell you that the polymer tips on their bullets help to initiate expansion.

Of course they do. A lead tip on a soft point does the same thing though. It still comes down to velocity.

Whatever. I don't care to argue with anyone over this. Better things to do.

Sorry, but that is not correct. Rifle to pistol is apples to oranges. I stop commenting on a topic when it gets a little crazy. But a better understanding of terminal performance and "why" bullets open and do not open will give a more full understanding.

I agree - penetration first and expansion second. .380 is popular because the pistols that shoot it are usually very carry-friendly. If I carried one I would want to maximize penetration, and to me that means heavy, ball ammo.
That she is carrying is great!

Enjoy!

Been watching You Tube videos of the Critical Defense tests. For the most part the Critical Defense does OK but one thing that seems to be pretty common is it has a habit of shedding some petals because they are so thin. I figure that's how they get the expansion with the plugged tip.

Since the OP was asking about 38/380 pay close attention to the 380 tests in this video. The results pretty much confirm what I was saying about bullet choice in the 380. Also note near the end of the video where he talks about velocity of the 9mm vs. 380 when it comes to expansion. In my opinion the 380 Critical Defense failed pretty bad in these tests.

Expansion--from what--the diameter you start with? Some people carry a 22. Some carry a 45. However, no matter what anybody carries they debate this expansion issue. If you carry a 22 then maybe you should be happy with an expansion to a 9mm? If you carry a 9mm would you be content with an expansion to a 40 or 45? I think I would rather place a little more emphasis on reliability and penetration.

I have been looking at the Buffalo Bore site some lately. I am considering this for the LCP. They have some pretty hot ammo for regular pressure pocket guns. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216

The 380 auto inhabits a valuable and useful place in our society, mostly because of the easily concealable, tiny pistols chambered for it. HOWEVER, because of the very limited size of the cartridge, it is plagued with limited power and therefore most of the existing ammo in 380 auto suffers from not being reliable as a man-stopper. We've studied and played with nearly all of the existing available 380 ammo and find it wanting as a reliable means of self defense, especially against a large, insane, drugged up/pain free, determined attacker.

Here's the problem. The current 380 auto frangible ammo delivers a large amount of surface trauma, but lacks serious penetration. For example, if you shot me or another sane man in the face with modern frangible 380 ammo, it would blow off a big portion of my cheek and send a few teeth down my throat, I would undoubtedly fall to the ground in shock and pain, but I would be very much alive and functional if I could get past the shock and pain as that frangible bullet would have stopped some where inside my face, never making it to my brain. However, if you shot a drugged up maniac in the face with that same frangible 380 ammo and blew half his cheek off, he would keep right on coming because he is insane and is not thinking like you or I. Plus, he is likely pain free and fear free and wont know that half his cheek is missing and if he did know, he would not care. So whatever 380 ammo you shoot him in the face with, had better go through his face and blow his brain stem out the back of his head, because only a CNS (central nervous system) hit with a 380 is going to stop him. Likewise, a torso hit to the sternum needs to penetrate deep enough to blow all the way through his spine in order to shut him down spontaneously. If you fail to shut him down instantly, you and your loved ones are going to have to find a way to survive while you wait for him to bleed out and pass out. The best chance of survival for you and your family is to shut down the attacker instantly. So, we've designed a few 380 auto standard pressure loads to keep you and your loved ones alive under the worst of scenarios.

Item 27E/20 is a 100gr. HARD cast bullet with a flat nose. It is traveling over 1,000 fps out of my 3.75 inch BDA (Browning Double Action). We've used a flash suppressed powder for all three of our 380 auto loads so that you wont be blinded by your own gunfire if you have to shoot in the dark and since around 95% of all civilian shootings in America occur in low light, the chances that your own gunfire will blind you while you are trying to save your life, are good - we've eliminated this variable by using flash suppressed powder. We've also chosen a flat nosed solid bullet. The flat on the nose ensures that the bullet will cut/smash its way through flesh and bone and do much more destruction than typical round nose FMJ bullets. Round nosed bullets tend to slip and slide through matter, doing little damage as opposed to a flat nosed bullet. The flat nose not only wounds much more than a round nosed bullet, but it actually keeps the penetration straight and thus deeper. Notice the below velocities recorded from my personal 380 auto pistols. These are real world guns and thus the speeds are realistic and not exaggerated speeds produced from laboratory test barrels. What you see with Buffalo Bore Ammo, is truly what you get in the "real world", where it matters. You can expect 20+ inches of straight-line penetration in flesh and bone with this load. If you are worried about over penetration with this load, DON'T! You chose to carry a tiny under-powered 380 auto pistol and the trade-off is that you are now going to have to stay alive with that pistol and over penetration will be the least of your worries if you end up needing this gun to save yourself or your family.

1. BDA-3.75 inch barrel-----1011 fps
2. Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----995 fps
3. Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel----910 fps
4. Keltec----902 fps

I would LOVE to see some proof the of this.

Yeah, I guess that would require a human corpse.

Naa there is plenty of materials out there these days that one could simulate this. Let be honest they are talking out their [censored] on this. I would be willing to bet they did no kinda of research to make this claim they just thought it sounded good and would help sell ammo. At least Hornady provided videos showing regular hollow points getting clogged then videos of their ammo working.

Regular hollowpoints getting clogged by enough clothing that it might not open is generally a winter time issue, especially in the Southern states. Summer time clothing just does not offer enough material to plug a hollowpoint. 20 plus years ago tested some Federal Hydro shocks and they expanded every time while a couple cheap hollow points did not from a 38 special. Test media was from an old leather jacket, flannel shirt and tee shirt material taped to the first of stacked milk jugs full of water. All the bullets expanded in the test when just shot into the water jugs.

I like to have a couple HP (hydro shock) followed buy FMJ. One shot stop would be nice but in the sub calibers do not count on it stopping a situation where deadly force is needed. That is why we do not carry single shots for self defense. Shoot until the threat is stopped.

Testing bullets, ever trap hogs. Hogs in smaller traps make for a good bullet test media. Sure not for testing with clothing on but for wound channels and such they are great.

Wow y'all are a bunch of bullet geeks! I did make a mental note NOT to shoot the bad guy in the belly button. I was just thinking that if I shot him in the navel it would not leave a scar. Y'all have taken that away from me!

As far as the penetration of hard-cast, flat nosed bullets is concerned, I can tell you that it is there. I am wondering why a person wouldn't just carry a soft point in their pistol.

I thought this was a pretty good test here using the smaller 380 pistols.

Biggest problem with dressing hogs is getting them to stand still while you tie the laces on their sneakers.

Bottom line is what diameter of a wound channel, and what depth do you think it would take to end a threat to you?

If you want a large wound channel with the most depth then use 45 with the hollow point of your choice.

If you want a big hole and penetration, and the highest reliability, then you use a lead or FMJ in whatever diameter you feel does the job you want.

Reliability in these pocket pistols that can collect lint in the rails would be my biggest concern. I try to clean the LCP at least once a month but...it doesn't always happen that way. I think a single hot HP bullet in the chamber followed by FMJs is not a bad idea.

There is no end to a discussion or debate like this.