My forever rifle is here!....now which scope?

looking to top off my forever do all rifle with some glass. For those that didn't follow the thread, its a Weatherby Mark V ultralight in .300 win mag.

The primary use for this weapon (yes, I said weapon) is hunting in the mountains in the Western U.S for elk, mule deer, goat, sheep and whatever bears I may see. Need it to be lightweight but still capable of reaching out 300-400 yards when the need arises.


Admittedly I'm a little bit obsolete in my knowledge of rifle scopes. My deer gun still wears the Redfield Tracker 3x9 that it was paired with back in 97'. The best rifle scope I own is a 4x16 Vortex Diamondback I have on my other Weatherby.

Looking at Leupold, Zeiss and Swavroski. I would not be opposed to another Vortex however I had a unexplainable incident with my Vortex where it was off. I guess I sort of lost confidence it in.


Looking for something in the 4x16-18 range, 1" or 30mm tube, less than 50mm objective (want to keep it light and mounted low on the rifle).


Hate tactical style reticles and much prefer a simple duplex reticle. The leupold firedot really has my attention right now.

price....don't really have a budget. Want to get good value. I'm recoiling at the price of my favorite scope, the Swavorski Z6. Even the Z5 makes me hiccup. I guess I want to stay at or around $1k for the scope.


Anyone have any suggestions? Anyone have any experience with the Vortex Viper or Razor HD?

What's you plan for 300 to 400 yards with a duplex reticle?

Nikon BDC scopes

Run a lap!


That's not a Duplex.

You should check out one of these. It has a great hunting reticle with plenty of holdover, it's lightweight, and has great glass.

https://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Optics-Raz...&ref=plSrch

This is the right reticle.

NF 2x10x42

You just missed a great sale on LRHSi

I need more magnification

my plan to hit stuff that far?


Kentucky windage is what I've been using. Worked out pretty good so far

I had a Nikon BDC.


I think i ended up throwing it at my dog

More specifically, the NF NXS Compact 2.5-10x42 with the Improved Hunting Reticle, which is an improved duplex type reticle. The IHR is nice in its own way for those that like a duplex style.

With an ultralightweight boomstick, the NXS will hold up far better than any of the brands listed in the original post. A S&B 3-12x50 PMII would be the other option to consider, but there are no duplex style reticles for it.

10x magnification really is enough, but if you want more, then the 4-16x42 or x50 ATACR would be a very nice option, but there are no duplex style reticles for the ATACR.

when i was a kid i was able to use a flight simulator at a aviation place my mom worked at.



looking thru a Nightforce scope reminds me of that simulator

are the 8, 16, etc. minutes of angle?

Ok. I'm out.

I hope you don't have to track them too far, if at all.

The VX-5HD is a very nice scope. I haven't looked at a 3-15x, but the 2-10 has great glass and I have no reason to think the 3-15 would be any less. I have not looked at a VX-6 yet. I have my reasons for avoiding it.

I have BDC type reticles on one of my rifles. to be honest I never used them....if the bullet drop comes into play I hold a tad high and let it rip. sounds stupid but it has been working.

last year had to make a shot in a heavy quartering wind (don't know what the wind speed was but it was blowing my costas around on the ground) i'm guessing 30mph, target was 200 yards give or take.


held into the wind at the point of the shoulder and bullet hit where I wanted it too in the crease along the foreleg.



I know its extremely unscientific and probably not the best way considering todays technology but I've had an ability to make running shots and to accurately judge holdover.


I would love to learn to better use drop reticles though. I think its a great tool to have.

$899 on Cabela’s website - can probably find it a little cheaper shopping a bit. It will do all you want it to do. If you stick with ranges of 400 and under, the duplex is fine. Not because other scopes are not more precise, but because anyone can learn to shoot a duplex scope accurately within those ranges(not implying you need to learn). They are much more simple/intuitive in the field, especially if shooting isn’t your avocation. My sheep rifle is sighted in 3” high at 100, puts it dead on at 280 or so with a holdover of a foot or so at 400 IIRC. I double check the rifle, trajectories, and holdover for 400 before hunting. That’s the only holdover you have to even know.



I wouldn’t go Vortex.

Edit: I didn’t mean to picture the dialing turret model.

I haven’t lost or even tracked a western/northern game animal in 2 decades of hunting them. It’s not hard at all to be accurate with a duplex reticle at 400 and under.

Leupold VX-5 HD. I have it, 3-15. Great hunting scope, seems to create light. I have a CDS for it. I also have a VX6. Both of these dials are on the money. I tested them. If you get good data to Leupold the dials will be on the money and the glass is very, very good. I've shot a lot of game with these. I have the 3-15 on a Tikka CTR and the 3-18 on a Remigton 5R, both .308's.

Yes sir.

PM me if you want me to expand on it, again. It really is easy, and there is no guess in where to hold, based on distance.

This far?
Hold here>

Step out of 1987 and listen since this is your lifetime gun. Your current scopes pretty much suck for glass and mechanicals

In the 2x10 world you can land around 20 oz

The next mid range stuff that you’re wanting will weigh 26-30 oz. 30 oz is a chunk.

And pretty much up from there in weight.

I spent more hours than believable scope hunting for filet taste and a sirloin budget. I am working on 3 builds right now. All 3 are handy midweights. I can easily make them top heavy but I’m trying to keep them balanced.

Your nicest glass and low weight is in the Leupold line , but if you have to spin a dial who knows if it will be on. I know you’re in 1987, but why not buy something that eliminates chances of your scope being knocked off? Especially on mountain hunts you go on.

You need to think about turrets because your south Texas sea level isn’t your Colorado sea level.

Find a Japanese made scope and go. NF,NF shv, swfa, Bushnell elite.
One of those will have a usable reticle and glass will be better than any of the sucky glass you have.

Make your gun the best you can do, especially if this is he last you’ll buy supposedly

The Leupold pictured above weighs 19 ounces.

How about a Burris veracity? They are supposed to be really easy too use.

You an still get a LRHSi 3-18x from GAP for $750. A steal. I also have a 2-12x VX6 CDS that has been dead nutz on the money on my 7mag for 4 years now.

Bushnell LRHS 4.5-18x44mm. 30mm tube

Has an illuminated red dot reticle in addition to fancy long range style reticle.

$900.00 ....

bushnell?

I agree on having to spin a dial.....that's why i'm not a fan of adjustable turrets....hence my using Kentucky windage on longer shots.


And i'm trying to bring things back to 77'

Was going to send him the link but it looks like they gone

Same here.

With a rig like that I'd probably go Leopold maybe Zeiss 12 to 14 power tops. Shoot the damn reticle you want, I like a clean set of cross hairs myself. Managed to hunt for well over 50 years without all that crap crowding up the scope.

Did you tell those Snipers that came out to your ranch that?

Yes... http://www.bushnell.com/all-products/rifle-scopes/elite-long-range-hunter/lrhsi-4-5-18x-44mm

And my mistake. The whole reticle lights up not just the dot

My mountain rifle wears a Leupold VX3 4.5-14x 40mm.

I used 2.8-8x or 3.5-10x scopes for years due to the weight, but scope weights have come down significantly. It’s not necessary, but I do like having the extra magnification available.

The subject here is hunting at 400 yards and under.
The subject here is hunting at 400 yards and under.
The subject here is hunting at 400 yards and under.

Your implication that he was going to miss or wound animals at those ranges with a duplex reticle was not only pure , it was a totally unnecessary cheap shot.

This is not a long range or sniper thread.

I'm not a sniper nor do I try or claim to be, I'm a hunter. Not sure what that comment has to do with this subject, he's building a nice 400 yard rifle, not playing sniper.

That's going to fall on deaf ears, he's stuck in his own world.

the sizes now you get another 6-8x in the same size scope

VX-5 HD. Beautiful glass and the firedot I love. I have the VX-6 HD and as of yet do not second guess it. If the VX-5 I wanted was in stock that day I still would not have spent the extra $$ on the VX-6.

I go with a Leupold vx3. They are light weight and very good glass. You can also order a calibrated turett cap for for your ammo of you choice.

Yes. I usually keep it on 6 or 7x in open country. If everything is all settled and relaxed, I will often find the animal in the scope using the larger FOV of the lower setting and dial him on up closer for the shot.

With my 300WM I would have to "Kentucky" ~26" or 6.25 moa at 400 yards.

I'd rather have the ability to dial that or use a reticle than hold it and that's not even accounting for wind.

That said, I don't think Firemans comments are off base. 2 decades and never tracked an animal is probably more off base, unless you didn't shoot anything in that time.

If you know how much bullet drop you're up against and you know the approximate size of your target, a good hit at 300 or 400 yards shouldn't be all that difficult. For example, if I was shooting at a volleyball and I knew I had five inches of drop I would hold on the top edge of it and nail it just about dead center. It ain't rocket science.

I limited that comment to my western/northern hunts, of which there have been 12-15 during that time. I have tracked several whitetails at my place in east TX. Usually not too far, but it is much thicker there. You don’t know me or what I’ve shot, so please be careful calling me a liar.

Oh, BTW, the only reason your drop is that much is because your sight in is 100 yards (I presume for dialing or holding with the right reticle purposes). Sight in for a PB of 250-300 and your 400 holdover will be a piece of cake. It’s a technique us old geezer duplex users take advantage of. Makes things simple.

And yes, his comments were both off base and uncalled for. Some can shoot just fine at moderate ranges without dialing, spider-web reticles, and charts taped to our stocks. Everyone can if they get out of the LR mindset.

Guess I'm different... 300-400 yards big game hunting I don't "need" more than 10x. I don't "need" over 6x...

For a dead nuts dialer, I am going with something known to be reliable. For a point-and-shoot for sub-400 yards, it would be something similar to a Leupold with B&C (or similar) reticle with VERIFIED aiming points.

I never tell anyone what kind of scope I use, I'd probably get made fun of.

So 400 yards is different when shooting at an elk?
I was under the impression physics did not care. Physics meaning gravity, and wind drift.

Yup. Reality.

Evidently I am short of company.

I need a hell of a lot more than 6x for my hunting. I don’t even like my 3x9’s anymore after hunting with a 4x16

Sight in 3” high at 100 and you don’t even need to hold off hair on an elk at 400 with a .300 Win Mag. As said above, it ain’t rocket science.

Wind drift is wind drift - has to be accounted for and is an artful estimation no matter the reticle used.

200 yard zero my 180 grain accubonds will be 19” low at 400. 6 1/2” low at 300.

Those are easy numbers. My .257 wby is only 12” low at 400.

I’ll take a lot more 200 yard shots than 400 yards. Aside from coyotes and stuff I’ve only taken one shot approaching 400 yards and because of the angle I was shooting over the animal.

I don’t like shooting stuff at long range. Too much stuff can happen. A 400 yard shot for me is a worst case scenario for me where there is no choice to get closer. I’m a 200-300 yard guy and most of my animals have been killed at 200 yards or less

That describes 95% of hunters across the globe.

All the paper-punching mindset does for that group is introduce a bunch of unnecessary swing thoughts. KISS is always the best way in the field.

I’d buy something with tactical turrets, it’s just going to be a lot easier in the long run. Your drop will change with elevation, temp, and pressure. Why risk the shot? Why risk wounding the animal or losing the animal when simply learning a new technique can significantly reduce those chances?

Everybody talks about being an ethical hunter. We pick the right caliber, the one we believe will be a 1 shot kill and knock him off his feet. We pick the right bullet, the one we think will best achieve that 1 shot catastrophic kill. Why not invest in a system that allows you to take the “guessing” out of how high to hold over? That being a scope with adjustable turrets.

Because it ain't necessary. That is all.

I disagree with the KISS analogy. Go Prepared. Cash me outside, how bout dat?

Then he might as well sling a 223 at it with that attitude

We'll see if you're prepared tomorrow.

What's wrong with BDC reticls? I don't remember.

At 400 yards and in there’s no ethical considerations or “risk” of wounding or missing if one simply knows the basics of shooting and some rudimentary ballistics. None. Zero.

You don’t need a scope with adjustable turrets for hunting at ranges of 400 and under. In fact, they can be a hindrance. Which you may encounter one day if you can’t get on an animal fast enough while dialing or finding the right reticle mark to use as an animal walks or runs out of your life. All of which was unnecessary to begin with.

Nailed it. Some people just love to chit on threads like this and act like they know what the [censored] they are doing, but I am not spending 5-10k to go kill an elk and make a SWAG as to where my bullet is going to end up when I pull the trigger. Obviously it has worked well for however long but we will agree to disagree.

I’ll remeber that and pass it along to our snipers the next time they have a hostage situation. I’ll tell them to put down the tactical turret and use the simpler duplex instead. I mean, it’s only 400 yards. Hopefully it’s not your daughters head next to the hostage taker. I mean, it’s only 400 yards

Folks hunted successfully with some pretty primitive optics for a long time before FFP and all this turret twisting came along and did fine. A plain old 4x, 6x, or 3-9x still works just as well as it ever did whether or not you want to believe it. Shoot the way you like. I urge everyone to shoot the way they like, including with iron sights (yes, those still work too, and at impressive ranges in the hands of an accomplished rifleman), Weaver 4x Micro-Tracs, and Nightforce ATACRs. Stop trying to pushthe LR agenda on folks who aren't interested.

right on NP. Did it that way for 40 years with a 7mag and duplex reticle.

Right! 400 yards is no big deal, yet I’ve never seen him drag his know-it-all [censored] to the Hunters Rifle Match. It’s only 300 yards. Should be a walk in the park for him.

“Kentucky windage” you are literally aiming at the world in most cases. Aim Small, Miss Small.

Nobody is pushing the “long range” agenda, we are simply saying there is a better solution than Kentucky windage.

And the fallacy with this mindset, and the mindset of lots of turret spinners, is assuming the LR shooter can dope wind, and nobody can do that every time. Not Tubb, Nodnett, nobody.

How about a Burris Eliminator scope?

The only ones chitting on this thread are all the paper-punchers basically either insulting him or insisting he get something that he specifically said he didn’t want simply because they think they know better because they have complex scopes and must justify their necessity.

No, no, NO! Wrong! That won't work anymore. But we don't get it.

I seem to remember there were no takeres on a kentucky windage experiment we were looking to conduct last year at Fireman's. Just to see what happened and what the results were

Exactly. And I don't get this need to push this stuff on other people. That's horsesh!t.

You are correct in regards to the wind, that’s my biggest enemy. So I elected to have a scope that assists me with it. It doesn’t eliminate the wind, or tell me where to hold, but this little hash marks give me a better idea that a flat line does.

Truth.

I grow so weary of all the LR paper-punchers lecturing others as unethical and/or incompetent on hunting threads at normal ranges. It’s laughable.

Turrets, turrets, turrets. All God’s chillun gots to use turrets. Or they suck.

Justify what?

You are correct. They didn’t want to look bad in front of others. We all miss targets, even with the twisty turrets, some of us are ok with that, others apparently not so much.

So if you have the wrong wind call, you're guessing just as much as the regular duplex guys, no matter how many mils/hashes/etc you have.

No, they prefer to bash "paper punchers" and try to get others banned for their own enjoyment or something I guess. Meh

Yes. But I’m only guesssing at the wind hold, not wind and holdover. Eliminate 1 so you can better focus on the other.

Guessing is still......guessing.

Probably no one gave a s*** and didn't feel like they had to prove anything. Kind of a pervasive attitude, I think.

I guess that's a fact!

Txtrophy85, with a 300 win mag for big game out to 400 you should be able to do fine with a duplex and no dialing. That Z-5 on your 300 win mag would complete a sweet point and shoot setup. I will say that experience tells me, with the resolution of the Swarovski glass, you would likely be happy with as low as 12 power. If you can make that work, you should be able to find a 4-12x50 Z3 with duplex reticle for less than a grand. I have one mounted on the Elkinator. A 7rem mag. Big game animals that I want to take inside of 400 yards are skating on thin ice. The Z3 is light. It has the same glass as the Z-5. For a 50 mm objective it is a trim package. The fact I was able to mount it in medium rings verifies that. So it fits the bill as far as mounting it low. Twelve power is the highest magnification though. Good luck with your scope choice. FWIW the big game rifles I prefer to hunt with are setup much the same as what you are planning. Given your planned use, there is something to be said for simplicity.

That is almost every thread on this forum.

Sadly, yes it is.

These threads are the best

Ummm... did I mention VX-5 HD

We are arguing with the elite idiots. They apparently know everything about everything. And one of them is a lawyer, so it’s never going to end

New keyboard time!

Pretty much. Let them stroke it the rest of the evening for all I care

That’s funny, the one preaching about ethics like they know it all is you. Post up all your elk, mule deer, mountain goat, sheep and bear pics please.

You also please.

That’s about what I figured.

That's a laugher, right there. Unless you believe that all the hunters who came before you all starved to death because they weren't twisting turrets.

Holy bat, S***man, make it stop!

I think someone's a little butthurt, maybe.

A page right out of the 1st grade playbook.

Funny how that works lol.

This is a great place to get smashed by the bullet experts we have on here

I think any medium/large sized game in the 300/400 yard range can be hit in the vitals by name a "big brand scope" in the $300-$400 range considering the shooter can

I personally prefer Vortex, find one in that price range. Good to go

This section has the most doosh bags and no Trophy I wasn't talking about you.

I wish you luck sir

Will it make my head bigger, like yours, if I do?

I killed my first deer at 12. The axis and the white tail from last year were killed with my rifle and we didnt track them. I do not want to piss of so little electrons to see what you are trying to prove?

Maybe it's because there are hunters who aren't out to prove anything, and there are the others---who twist turrets.

Your head is obviously plenty big enough. You know it all about ethical hunting out west. I’m just checking to see if you have any walk to go with all that talk. That’s all.

In most hunting instances I personally don’t have the were withall to adjust turrets.

The elk I shot last year,for instance. Came out right at dark at 267 yards. I know this because I ranged the tree it was next to when I arrived to thst spot. Total time from me spotting it to throwing lead was 30 seconds tops. A lot of my hunting situations are like that, I’m on the move in an active situation and things are moving fast and I don’t need any extra steps to learn at this point.

I have shot some at long distance and it’s amazing what you can do at known distance with ballistic turrets. I think it’s really cool.

But for what type of hunting I DO, it’s not realistic to employ those devices. I’m much better off with a simpler scope. I have not been in one single hunting situation where I had to pass on an animal that I would have been able to get with a turreted scope. Not one time.

I have been hunting over 20 years with regular variable power scopes and have been very successful
And the guys I hunt with who have been doing it longer are also very successful and they use regular variable power scopes as well

Not bashing adjustable turrets and I may get them if I get the Leupold but I don’t have to have them.

Yea, youd be surprised how many people come out to the hunting challenge with big buck scopes and cant hit the broad side of a damn barn. But yea of course anyone with a 600-800 scope can stack animals at 400-600 yards with no problem at all.

Just curious, what if on the last day of your hunt a trophy bull steps out across a valley at say 500-600 yds, no chance to work into a better position. You gonna wing it, or no shoot?

Get what suits you and what you’re comfortable with but a there are plenty of “tactical/ paper punching/ spider web/ sniper” reticles that are not too busy for a hunting rifle, IMO.

In the end, it’s your build, go put eyes on each piece of glass that makes your list and get what you want. Congrats on a nice rifle btw.

I see you are keeping an open mind and apologize for screweing up your thread somewhat but some people just cannot help themselves it seems.

Yeah. Another thread where you must do it my way or you're wrong. He's talking about his dream rifle, not your rifle or style.

Yea that's what it is LMAO. The hunter challenge is one of the most helpful shooting comps I've ever been to. Everyone helps everyone and youd be surprised the misses at 100-200 yards let alone 400-600 yards. The hunters challenge only goes to 300 yards and there are lots and lots of missed. But yea, duplex rifle scopes out to 600 with Kentucky windage is super ethical.

FIFY...

Nobody’s talking about 400-600 yards in this thread.

Is 400 the threshold for when you chit on a thread? Asking for a friend.

Again, nobody’s talking about “out to 600”.

If you can find where I EVER said anything like that, please point me to it. Really.

Well the op was just asking for advice on a duplex scope for shooting to 400 yards so....

Fair enough, but there are those who do NOT twist turrets and hunt---successfully even, believe it or not.

It’s the threshold for this thread. Read the OP. I know all you punchers want to talk about more so you can turn it into another LR thread. But this ain’t a LR thread - which is kinda the point.

We can talk about why LR hunting sucks for other reasons, but that’s another thread.

Regardless, as many misses as I've seen from guys at 200-300 yards its asinine to have a duplex reticle for anything but known distances. If you have a stand and a feeder at 100 yards and your duplex is sighted in for 100 yards by all means have at it. But if you're hunting at unknown distances it's just crazy to use old [censored] duplex reticle when there are way better options out there.

Funny how a question like his ends up generating a dustup, isn't it? Wonder why that is.

Same here.

If you find a scope that fits your needs, and has turrets, I wouldn’t rule it out. Even if you don’t use turrets or reticle for hunting. I too thought that I would never need a scope with turrets, even after 20+ years of hunting. Then I got one for work and really enjoyed the simplicity of it and that has evolved into me using them for hunting. I now find myself going to the rifles with the tactical scopes for hunting because that’s what I e become comfortable with.

Oohhhh...I see. So a mil reticle makes knowing range unnecessary. You've won me over.

So why is this such a pain in the [censored] just to have a real conversation and see what happens by running a trial run side by side? I have duplex scopes in the safe for ranges under 200.

Yeah, that had nothing to do with what I said.

Not a mention of a 600 yard shot in the OP's initial post.

300-400 yards, large game.

Just proving my point, awesome

Still would have been the same post had I said 300-400 yards. Still just proving my point is a bunch of bs talking and no proof of anything. Why dont yall quit talking [censored] and actually come out to the hunting challenge and show us your skills with this duplex reticles.

Unless of course you're busy that day....

It’s only “asinine” to you because you apparently have to make everything harder than it needs to be. If you can’t achieve good accuracy at 200-300 with a duplex reticle, you can’t shoot. And you don’t know the first thing about shooting. Period. End of story.

A .300 Win Mag sighted in 2-3” high at 100 will keep every bullet in a 3” or so “tube” out to 300. Just hold dead on and kill the damn animal. Heaven forbid if you have to hold over some out to 400. It. Ain’t. Rocket. Science.

I do not understand why you don't just say "I tried mil reticles and turrets and I like them, you oughta give them a try" instead of castigating those of us who have no interest...like the OP, for instance.

Looks like you've got all that you need to conduct the experiment of interest to you, all by yourself.

He shoots MOA

Ignorant post, but yea with a little math and known animal sizes you can know the range of very close with a mil scope. Maybe Google it or something

Same thing applies to duplex reticles if you know how to use them. IF you even need to use the reticle itself.

Your signature makes me laugh, kind of an oxymoron huh

Whatever.

I have turret guys but I do not know anybody with legitimate experience in kentucky windage like you guys who post the strongest argument. I do not want to run a test to prove I am right. I want a level field so the outcome tells the tale and not keyboards or mouths.

Again as always when we have these conversations NP standing invitation to come shoot. Nothing new, nothing to lose right considering I cant shoot?

Exactly how do you range an animal with no hash Mark's or measurements in the reticle? You dont, you're guessing hense the Kentucky windage.

So you're telling us you have no idea how to use a duplex reticle. You should sell those scopes cheap, they're no good to you if you don't know how to use them.

Let's get this "kentucky windage" thing straight, while we're at it. That was a term used for shooting muzzle loading rifles at ranges beyond the usability of the sights, and truly a less than scientific WAG. We're not talking Kentucky windage, we're talking about the practicality of duplex reticles at ranges to 400 yards.

All y’all ever want to do is issue “challenges”. What a small little world. My “hunting challenges” take place while hunting, not at the range. I don’t have a thing to prove anyone.

I don’t care if you can shoot better than me or not. Or even hunt better than me or not. I’ll say this though: if some of y’all’s trophy rooms are as big as your mouths, they must be damned impressive.

You read the manual, Kyle. It's a few pieces of paper that come with many scopes, and they tell you how the reticles work.

Just like your signature says, we are here to receive knowledge. So please, explain how to use a duplex reticle, so far you have just instigated [censored] and bragged about how great you are with Kentucky windage. Apparently you’re so good you don’t need a reticle at all

Exactly with a duplex reticle with no hash marks your essentially guessing everytime. There is no repeatability because you dont know exactly where you were holding on the duplex reticle when you shot that trophy buck. It was a guess and you got lucky. That is all.

Read the manual that comes with the scope. Easy stuff.

They make rangefinders. A lot of folks use them. Even this troglodyte uses one.

That said, at most hunting ranges you don’t need them.

Read the manual, Kyle. It's easy stuff.

My manual taught me a lot about the scope, it doesn’t teach you the formulas needed for ranging animals. Did yours?

Reading is not that [censored] hard.

I learned the necessary math in the fourth grade.

That is such BS. Read my post above again. It ain’t hard once you get out of your own head.

You and the resident counselor are all bark and no bite is what it looks like. Show me how well it works you cannot do is what your telling me. FO

Wow that's a lot of [censored] to remember when you have seconds to harvest an animal. You know you dont remember all that [censored] you simply guess and get lucky sometimes. My MIL scope is way easier to remember.

Quite trying to educate the Corky's of the world Kyle.

You told me there was no way to range using a duplex reticle. Guess you were wrong, huh?

G'nite!

How is that be? With no measurements or hash marks there is no way for you to know exactly where you held for 275 center punch. Its impossible

Wow, buncha bitches. I love the 5-20 SWFA SS as well as my VX-6 HD. But my go to hunting rifle wears a FX-3 4x. What the heck guys. He’s looking for a hunting scope in the $1000 +\- range.


Did I mention VX-5

I really doubt that.

But yet, here it is again. Another post of instigating from the boolshit King

I don’t care what you think about me one way or the other, but if you can’t hit what you are aiming at under 400 yards without dialing, you can’t shoot. Period. Bite on that.

You gave the subtensions. You’ve hardly come close to ranging an object.

When would you like to see it go down and where please Sir?

NP just forgot that the [censored] reticle is in that scope... lol

You wouldn't know boolshit of someone powdered your cornflakes with it tomorrow morning.

If you like super convoluted ignorant ways of doing things. Sure I guess you could possibly range with one, but still doesnt look very accurate based on your picture you posted. But, more power to you guys.

Yeah Josh,, bite on that. He never misses anything under 400 yards, he won’t prove it, but he will tell you your a [censored] [censored] bitch if you miss a mouse at 400 yards

You are dumber than I thought. Damn.

You can bite on it too.

If you can, all the turret talk being necessary was BS.
If you can’t, you can’t shoot without a silly pacifier telling you what to do.

Those are your alternatives. Pick one.

Still waiting on the pics. The nursery rhymes were great though.

It's funny all of us "turret twisters" are always ready for a challenge to back our [censored] up, yet the duplex pushers are to busy talking down to everyone to actually shoot. If you're so good with your rifle and duplex reticle it should be a walk in the park to shoot it out. Yet you duplex pushers always keep trying to talk over us rather than actually put up or shut up.

At least I know what a rangefinder is and how to use it if necessary. (Which isn’t often.) Yeah, y’all are the gurus, all right.

Corky, you gave us X but left out the rest of the pieces to the puzzle.

Case in point

You litterally did nothing but post a [censored] picture with subtensions. And you’re calling me dumb?

Yea I use a range finder as well. When I find the range I dial my dope to that elevation. What exactly do you do. You figure out the range and then guess where exactly to hold on your duplex because you have no clue exactly where the bullet is going to go because you dont exactly have a clue how much dope you're holding.

I'm glad I'm not drinking tonight. This cluster-f could've really gotten rowdy.

When are you going to get it through your 3rd grade head that I don’t have anything to prove to you? Geez, grow up.

I don’t know about y’all but I got that juice

No juice. No beer. Just Ozarka tonight. I'll be the only one allowed to post tomorrow too.

Yea yea I know, you have nothing to prove. Then why are you having this conversation? If you're not trying to prove that all you need is a duplex why are you here?

That's right talking out of both sides of your mouth. One side you say oh turret twisters are stupid and you dont need that duplex is all you need. Then when called out, you talk out of the other side of your mouth say you ain't got [censored] to prove. Typical.

Regardless of how many times you duck it, the invitation stands anytime you duplex guys feel like proving it.

We don't have anything to prove to you either. You and your crew are the ones that like to make it a chit show.

Wanna have a duplex challenge?
I'm down.

Who'll bet I can run a duplex just fine against all these duplex pushers? I've got a tank full of diesel and am happy to drive.

Dammit he may be right lol

Well I'm down, but I'm in the 3rd grade so what do I know.

After reading this, why in the world would anyone here want to go shoot with anyone else?

That’s great! Why don’t you tell all your buddies a duplex is fine for normal hunting ranges then and all their talk about it being “unethical”, “asinine”, etc. is a steaming pile of BS? Thanks!

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Said it before. Clearly you do not possess the brain power to process the information.

We can hang out

Why indeed?

Reading comprehension NP, that's not what he said.

Cool. No swordfighting tho.

Yup, he has nothing to prove, but by god he will tell he has never had to track an animal in 20 years. And if you can’t show pics of the same animals that he has killed, then your not a man and not worthy of his time.

3rdd grade education And all this time I thought attorneys were smart ( sarcasm)

FML mental image

In your mental image, I hope I was dressed like Deadpool.

Well you are now

At least I have enough brain power not to have to ignore another user on an internet forum as an easy cop-out to avoid discussion and only engage in insults.

I see his point when you just want to throw stones and not engage in good conversation. Just saying...

That's hot.

Word, and for some reason Patrick is a chubby Cable now.

They only feel like stones because they hit where they hurt. I have been discussing. The words “idiot”, “asinine” and “unethical” all come from your side of the table. Notice that?

Not to mention the lovely nursery rhymes. Some great conversation there.

That's extra hot.

Just had to get on your level of intelligence

I have never used any of those words to describe that method being utilized. If we can stop taking pot shots I think we could really be on to something

What in the world is wrong with many of you people?

I'll put it like this. Our government is screwed up because everyone wants to have a debate, and not many are capable of having a discussion.

Waylon Jennings — "There's always one more way to do things and that's your way, and you have a right to try it at least once."

Are you going to miss a meal or not have meat in the freezer if he doesn't choose your favorite scope? Let the man decide what works for him and don't be so hasty to assume it won't work.

I grew up western Oklahoma poor. I didn't own a scope until I graduated college. Do you think I was looking at Leupold, Zeiss, or Swarovski? NOPE. I bought a Weaver K3 at a pawn shop and was dang glad to get it.

So now days, I have an FFP 3-9 mil-dot. I like it a lot and it works very well for me. But that's just me. I don't really use the dials that much, but I do like the mil-dot holdovers.

That said, I prefer my scout rifle with a 2-7 scout scope. So who is going to jump on me that "you can't do that with the scout scope and you cant hit that"? I do just fine.

Remember. "There's always one more way to do things and that's your way, and you have a right to try it at least once."

Geez, what a bunch of 7th grade girls.

This thread made it about 8 posts before the reticle/LR/dialing [censored] started in. Guys, he doesn’t want a [censored] scope to dial with. He hates tactical reticles. Do y’all even read the [censored] original post?

Anyway....I’ve had the Swaro Z6, Leupold VX-5 HD, and VX-6HD, and also looked at the Vortex LRH....my favorite is the VX-6HD. The only disadvantage is a couple ounces more than the Swaro but I thought the glass was clearer on the VX-6HD and it has the illuminated reticle. Also, the Leupy comes with the sweet screw on lens covers.

Carry on with the dick measuring contest....7 pages in this thread and only about 4 posts address what TXTrophy was asking. Smdh.

Are you saying a duplex can be effectively used to engage targets at a variety of distances?

This post is goofy. OP wants to shoot big animals out to 400. Wants good glass and simplicity. I have both style scopes. For what he wants to do, the set up makes perfect sense. If you can't make that setup work well within the OP's parameters, any advice you are giving needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

It is more of a challenge than using a Mil or MOA reticle. That is the point of one of the sides of the isle in this. There is very little to use to have a known place to hold with. So I'm up for a challenge, the duplex makes this more difficult than it needs to be.

My stance is just a good reticle. If he doesn't want exposed turrets that's his call. One that comes to mind, with pretty dang good glass is a Nikon Monarch with a Mil reticle.

My neighbor/ friend Randy is 65 and I was able to convince him to go to a Mil reticle for the first time in his life. I did a load development for his 7 Rem Mag, I learned his holds, and wrote it down in tenths of Mil as well as a drawing of the reticle. He took the rig out to 200. 300, 400, 500 with ease. He said "that reticle sure makes this much easier". That's the point some of us are making.

How did this thread go 15 pages in since yesterday at 4pm? I guess I slept through it.

On average the depth of chest on an elk is about 24 inches, with my 300 Weatherby and 150 grain Nosler Partitions running 3540 fps, I'm about 7 inches low at 400 yards or about 1/4 elk at 400 and almost a full elk at 500. I realize 1/4 elk is probably not a term you use but it is one allot of us old timers would use and it's been very effective. There was a time before mil spec's, range finders, anemometers and ballistic calculators.
I've shot the same rifle and load for close to 50 years and feel pretty comfortable with it. So you take your rifle and all the gear you have to have to use it and enjoy, I'll take my old antique rifle and methods and enjoy just as much.

Well that's easy, look who got involved.

I'd guess alcohol & the inability to see another ones point..

The man stated outright the type of reticle he prefers, but I guess some folks aren't happy letting other folks make their own decisions. Kinda reminds me of liberals.

Well, I quit after 7 pages but doubt that I missed anything new and mind blowing. Lots of on both sides of this discussion. I think I have some duplex and BDC reticles. I just use the crosshairs, even though I have a general idea f how the BDC works. A lot has been mentioned about guessing range. I have a rangefinder that tells me that in 5 seconds. I have memorized the ballistics for my ammo in my rifle from the manufacturer out to 400 yards, which means I have a shooting solution that eliminates one variable in under 10 seconds. Sure, I have had to track animal, that's part of the hunting experience. The possibility of having to track an animal 100 yards won't keep me from taking the shot. Over 400 isn't in my skill set and I honestly can't think of a time when I may have even had an opportunity for a shot that long. Granted, I have never hunted out west or in the mountains for elk and when I do I may see things differently and learn that skill set. If/when I do, all it takes is a box of ammo and an hour or two at the range. For those that want to be exact, or have need for longer shots, I get the BDC reticles. More power to you.

OP congrats on the new rifle and good luck in your search for the scope that meets your needs.

We've been over this before.

You have 50 years of experience. That is impossible for a person to learn in one day. But a person can learn in one day how to properly use a Mil or MOA reticle. I've got a full calendar for the next month of men of various ages wanting to learn that very thing. Why? Because it works.

I don't have anything that is "Mil spec". I guess thats what you think Mil means. It is actually an abbreviated term for miliradian, which is a trig function. It is ine way to chop up a circle into smaller sections of one degree, same as MOA.

Don't need a weather meter for less than 600 yards.

Laser range finders are a way for anyone to remove ine more thing to guess.

So you're talented in "guessing distance" and "guessing where to hold" on an animal. Good for you, 99.999999% of the population does not have such talent.

Plain and simple the op clearly stated he just wanted a duplex set up.



For some strange reason you couldn't follow the simplest of direction and stay within the guidelines of the OP's question. "Hate tactical style reticles and much prefer a simple duplex reticl." What part of that did you not understand?

It actually makes it more simple at his ranges. Nothing can be more simple than point and shoot. You are so deep in the dialing, MIL, and long range stuff you can’t accept that however. Hunting is not about sitting at a bench and hitting the exact 1/4” you are aiming at. It’s about putting an animal down in the field quickly under what may be stressful conditions.

Dialing or hunting for the right subtend on the reticle for anything 300 and under while hunting is a waste of time. Holdover for 300-400 is easy. That time might make a difference between killing your target or not. Which, where I come from, is the point of hunting.

Now, get longer than 400 and the LR techniques become necessary. But, that isn’t the topic on this thread.

Every one of these threads goes the same way: the LR dialing crowd taking over and turning them into a chest-thumping “you-are-an-idiot-if-you-don’t-do-it-this-way” thread. Every. Time.

I don't understand ANYONE using and I quote "Kentucky Windage" when they do not have to.

You are an expert in oil and gas, as best I can tell. Do you guess on things before you make a decision, or do you gather information and make an informed decision?

No need to reply, I know the answer.

Talk about a runway thread.....9 pages in less than 24 hours......what a hoot!

And did you notice how I managed to be involved in the subject, stay on topic and not bring it up. See how it work's.

This was your response when the topic didn't go the way you wanted it to.



Could you be more arrogant or sarcastic?

That is SOP for mustache man

They need their own sections but I'm afraid they'd dig out from under the fence.

That was me relating something you know to the topic at hand. That is usually what is done when dealing with adults. Which is why I ask my customers what they do for a living.

Yes, I could me more arrogant or sarcastic, because that comment was neither.

Right on HwyMan. That's the "math" RiverRider was eluding to. I've been doing the same thing on deer sized animals mainly, for 40 years. Must have dumped almost 300 of them by now with a standard duplex reticle. It's really not that hard to understand.

BS. It was obviously both. Not even debateable. Basically said if he didn’t do it your way, he was going to miss and wound animals. Which is not only arrogant and sarcastic, it is simply, again, BS.

That comment is what sent the thread off the rails and provided the red meat for your LR crowd to jump in. Just as you intended.

If you’re gonna make your arrogant and sarcastic comments, the least you could do is own them.

10+ pages I aint gonna read but I have seen enough to see whats happening here.

All I can say is just be sure and mount that scope in some of those Leupold or Redfield rear windage adjustment mounts if you want to see these guys completely lose their minds.

Amen. Some don’t want to understand. They simply want to chest-thump and preach.

Made me laugh! You been fishing lately?

#1 thing that ruins a forum is when there are a handful of guys with a ton of posts who think they know better than everyone else and just HAVE to comment on every thread. This forum is the perfect example. The same few guys comment on every thread, and gang up to shout down anyone who disagrees with them.

To me, the point of forums like this are to educate and be educated. Unfortunately, it often turns into an ego match between a few grown men with thousands of online posts, and the voices of the people actually trying to help and share knowledge get drowned out.

Just throwing out another option. Meopta has a good reputation for value. You tend to get a lot of scope for the money.



I was very impressed with the 6x42 I recently bought. It has the best glass out of all my scopes.

if that above scenario took place I would be coming home and telling a story about how I saw a trophy bull at 500 or 600 yards and couldn't get any closer and I passed it up


I know guys who have been in that scenario and shot and wounded the elk and they had no elk AND they had to pay the trophy fee of the animal.




I'm not going to take some long hail mary shot because I think I'm Bob Lee Swagger and have turrets on my scope. I don't hunt like that. I think its been pretty clear on what type of scope i'm looking for. I have mil dots on my vortex scope and don't use them.

Should we talk about Diesel Trucks and Lift Kits now?

Need I quote your chest thumping from the pages prior? Where you talked about all the animals you have killed? How you haven’t had to track an animal in 20 years? How you told us that if we have to use turrets to under 300 yards and miss the target then we don’t need to be shooting? If you want to talk about chest bumping, and blame JG or the “long range” crowd, then you should look in the mirror first.

It’s not wrong for one to suggest another way of doing something. Like your chromie RR, we are here to learn.
Mierda Dura

2 weeks ago was the last time. Had a pretty good day with lots of Sandbass and even quite a few Bass with the biggest being right around 5 pounds. Bass are really starting to move to their deep summer time water but the wind has kept me off the lake last weekend and this weekend.

WhatsgoingoninhereOhLawd.jpg

I’m a Vortex fan, a lot on here are not. The Viper, IMO, is a solid scope, escpecially the GenII. The Razor is much better than the Viper. I don’t believe either can be had a simple duplex reticle anymore. The Razor will be on the very heavy side of scopes

VX-5 HD

Oh wait, that’s the fourth time. Lol

There may be other comparable scopes in that price range but I sure don’t know what they are.

BP, I’ll give my western hunting experience when that’s the subject of the rifle/scope setup and those with little to none call my way out as “asinine”, “unethical” and say it leads to missed and wounded animals.

If you really want to learn, it has been explained several times how a duplex scope can be used to excellent effect on animals at moderate (400 and under) ranges. Which is, again, the subject of the thread.

If you really want to learn something, learn that. Because it’s a fact - and a pretty simple one.

Not wrong just senseless and off topic since the OP clearly stated he wasn't interested in that style optic's.

I was just wondering. I didn’t make any assertion on which scope you should get. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure why you’re asking for suggestions. No one here can tell you which scope you’ll like best. Like I said, I’d go put hands on each one. I made an expensive optics purchase a while back, I ended up driving to a few places on two or three separate occasions just to make sure I was getting what my eye liked the best.

The OP is clearly a troublemaker and should be kicked off for two weeks. He started trouble months ago by asking opinions on his dream rifle. He is clearly an out of control Troll that the moderators need to punish.









Note- this is sarcasm!

Yep. Here's their idea of "suggesting:

Actually introduce the idea
Explain why their way is superior and everyone else's sucks
Proceed to tell everyone who doesn't agree how stupid they are
Start challenging everyone to a shooting contest

It is predictable, and quite laughable.

...and then:

And yet, here’s the other side.

I’ve killed so many animals that you can’t even tell me anything, I know it all and the duplex is superior. Until you’ve killed as many animals as me, and never had to track one, then you can’t comment.

Here’s a pic of a duplex with subtensions, if you don’t know how to use that and shoot an animal within 1 second then your not a hunter

Y’all must live some miserable [censored] lives if you are that stuck in your ways.

Since he is talking about a hunting rifle...

Actually mines a very happy contented life. But I do have to say that y'all sound like the car salesman in National Lampoons Vacation.

Damn...…..Is hunting season here yet?

That wasn’t directed at you, sorry to tie you up in it.

Wait......You picked a Weatherby fot your "forever" rifle?



Just kidding

Has anyone suggested that he sell it and buy a tika yet?

Now THAT is funny!

Sorry for the asinine comments last night was a little lit, but still think I'm right

Yup....I too am always more correct and accurate when I'm lit up.....

And you were right by the way....

Can they please move dove season back to October 1st....this is way too much fun.....I truly love summer threads.....

And miss out on all this fun.....

Or a savage.


In 6.5 creedmoor, naturally

If I were going to get a 6.5, I would get a Weatherby in 6.5-300.

Worse yet, in a non-Weatherby caliber

I let him slide on that one but he is now on the watch list.

I thought the thread was a fail from the start. Not a 6.5Needmor and not a Tikka.




Weatherby is a fine rifle and the 300WinMag is a mighty fine round. Truly a match that will do the job and stand the test of time.

But your Sig says “Weatherby” not “Weatherby Round”

Well, I stopped reading at page 5, picked up a couple on 25 for grins. With some basic, or standard, MV’s and BC’s, there could be a difference of about 15” between 300 and 400 yards. For those that think they can judge this with a duplex scope, my first question would be ‘how are you getting your distance?, guessing or using a rangefinder?’ If using a rangefinder, why do that and guess the hold?, if not, you could be off on distance AND hold. P_102

Don't tell anybody but I have a Remington chambered in a Weatherby caliber.

Using MPBR

Some of us golfers are surprisingly good a judging distance.

Remember the time when men judged distance and used irons? Good times...

One in particular put 40 rounds inside a 40 inch cirle at 1000 yards with a 45-70 and iron sights.

I vaguely remember that. Truth told, that is still fine if you are hunting from a blind over a feeder. Of course Mr. Trophy is going to use this gun on sheep and elk in a state where that isn't even legal.

Even bow hunters use range finders now.

Not real ones.

Agree HWY_MAN, I’ve been playing for 50+ years.....TexFlip, I understand MPBR, I don’t use it because I don’t want to be “almost” accurate. Even if your MPBR is dead on, how do you know your distances are dead on? P_102

Unfortunately this turned into a "Baby noomer" versus "Gen X" fight, and I hate that.

P_102 is a Baby Boomer though. And know he knows, what he didn't know before. Just sayin.

Y'all carry on.

Whoever said, or represented, that MPBR guys didn't use RF's?

Wait until the Millennials and Gen Z weigh in, this thread will be 40 pages.

That's right.

Fixed it.

A Burris Eliminator would fix all your problems

It’s just another thread between those that know how to shoot at normal ranges without dialing or subtended reticles (like the majority of those who hunt at normal ranges do) and those who think they have to have them. Take the training wheels off. It’ll be OK.

Yeah, but:
Q. “How do you know the exact ranges?”
A. With the proper sight-in, you don’t need to know exact range up to 300 - over that use a rangefinder like everyone who hunts does these days. If you have time, use your rangefinder.

Q. “How do you know how to estimate holdover?”
A. If you can’t judge what holdover is from, say, anywhere from 6 to 15” - Heaven help you. It ain’t hard. Know the size of your animal from bottom of chest to backline, and judge off the animal.

Q. “What about judging wind?”
A. Judge it like anyone does, learn to estimate it as best you can. Having a reticle mark to use after you’ve made your best guess doesn’t change the fact that the reticle mark is still your best guess.

None of this is hard. Never has been.

If you’re dialing or worrying about finding the proper reticle to use at 300 and under, you are simply wasting motion and time. From 300-400 it’s probably a wash, since holdover thought is required in both cases.

Amazing to see many laugh and insult the way hunters have done things for over a century. Would love to see all you know-it-alls insult guys like O’Connor, Keith, Boddington, Askins, and millions of others who have done just and do just fine without your help.

Arrogance is bad enough. Arrogance bred of ignorance is worse.

That makes some sense. How does it work? You just zero it at 300 yards instead of 100, then don't worry about distance as long as it isn't past 400. Is that it?

Basically, yes.

I zero my mountain rifle 3” high at 100 yards. That puts it dead on at about 280. From zero to 280 your bullet will not travel outside about a 3.5 inch “tube” with its total rise and fall. Its highest point in the arc is at 150 or so.

At 300 it will drop about 3”. At 400 it will drop about 14”.

Just go from there. If everything is calm, relaxed, and you know the distance - hold a little high or low according to the distance if it’s under 280 (for example, if he’s at 100 hold 3” low if you want to be more precise). If everything’s happening fast, it doesn’t matter - just concentrate on the shot and make it. He will be just as dead whether you hit the exact 1/2” spot on him or 2” away from it.

The big advantage is you don’t spend thought or time worrying over something you don’t need to be worrying about. Just make the shot and kill the animal. It’s hunting, not benchrest shooting.

Over 300, you’ve got to make your holdover just like with any other method. But, again, with practice learning to judge holdover without “measuring” using subtensions or dialing is a time-saver that might come in handy one day as an elk or ram is about to walk over a ridge and out of your life.

Over 400, use subtensions or dial. The bullet drop is simply too much from that point on not to. I don’t shoot over 400. Neither does the OP. So that’s another subject for other threads.

Nogalus,

Thank you for the substantive post. Interested in hearing your thoughts.

The overwhelming majority of the animals I have shot have been inside of 150 yards. Have shot a handful beyond 250. The longest was 472, which dropped where it stood with a high shoulder shot.

I strive for the animal to have instant death, literally drop where they stand, so they do not suffer. That result requires precise placement to the central nervous system, which in turn requires a precise zero and a reliable scope.

3” high at 100 is not precise enough for my method, even 1 1/2” high really is not good enough, by the time field conditions are factored in. The most precise aiming produces the most reliable result.

It’s very rare that I take a shot beyond 200 yards, so I set things up for the most likely to occur shot.

If for some reason I was going to take a longer shot and SWAG a correction, it is but a second to dial up 3 MOA which is the exact same as what you are doing as the default in advance. Truly same/same.

I tend to want to range anything that looks longer than 200 - 250, as there is too much room for error. Errors in aiming decrease the likelihood of an instant kill. Stated differently, I do what I can to minimize the risk of the animal suffering. I was shot once and it was quite an unpleasant experience, so it weighs on my mind.

The reason I prefer Nightforce scopes is because they are more durable and more reliable, thus more likely to produce the result I strive for. It is not about long range for me, and one of my NF’s has their version of a duplex reticle in it, which is pretty nice. It is a “hunting” size scope. I prefer a reticle which provides more info if I want it, but the duplex style reticle is nice in its own way.

Here is a combo of everything rolled into one with a traditional rifle. This is the scope I was suggesting to the OP with their version of the duplex reticle they call the IHR, Improved Hunting Reticle. This was zeroing it, usually would bring it down to a true zero.

Hi Jeff-

I do not feel the need for an instant kill. A clean kill is what I seek.

I do not pretend to know the level of an animal’s suffering or not (I have theories like everyone else), but I do not believe an accurate comparison between humans and animals can be made - primarily because humans are sentient, self-aware, and emotional, while animals are none of these things. Much of the suffering humans undergo from trauma has a mental component that animals simply lack.

In any event, while every effort should be made to ensure a clean kill and anything less than a clean kill is to be avoided - I don’t concern myself beyond that. Nature is cruel - whether it’s fang/claw, starvation, disease or any number of other calamities that may befall animals. Very much moreso than my bullet or arrow.

And as a hunter, I am simply playing my role as a part of nature.

I struggled with that as well. I even told the guy when I placed the order I felt I was committing some sort of sacrilege.

I originally wanted a Christensen arms ridgeline but they could not give me a definite date on getting a lefty done thru their custom shop. My September hunt fell thru so it’s a moot point anyway but I wanted to have it in my hands no later than July.

I wanted a .300 win mag because a Weatherby needs a 26” tube to get all the powder burnt and I didn’t want to bear the recoil and muzzle blast in a ultralight rifle and the ammo is a ton easier to come by.

So that’s how I ended up with what I ended up with


And yes I do laugh at people who own Weatherby rifles (especially Mark V’s) in non Weatherby calibers, as I generally don’t see the point of it, however there was a method to my madness in this instance.

Well just what the [censored] generation am I lol

Can't explain it much better than NG did but maybe I can add to it. Let's take what NG said and throw in one more piece of the equation he left out and that's the caliber you use. I like Weatherby calibers (Like it's not obvious) they're fast and flat shooting. With that combination we extend the so called tube NG was referring to with increased velocity.

Example 1. Lets take the 257 Weatherby with a 100 grain spire point at 3 inches high at 100 yards.
100 + 3
200 + 3.2
300 + 0.5
400 - 6.1
500 - 14

Example 2. 257 Roberts with a 100 grain spire point. 3020 ft/s
100. +3
200. +3.6
300. -5.3

Just for fun let's throw in a 6.5 Creedmoor. 120 grain GMX. 3050 ft/s. Note it's not sighted in 3 inch high at 100 but will give you and idea of the trajectory.
100. +1.5
200. +0
300. -6.3
400. -18.3
500. -36.9

Yes but don’t trust what the box of ammo states for ballistics. You need to verify it on your own, 100, 200, 300 Etc. Also be weary of lot to lot ammo. Also note that new barrels tend to speed up with break-in of 200+ rounds. My main rifle has a 250 zero, and I dial over 350.

———————————
TTrophy-
I would ignore the guys that slam people for shooting over 300 yards, but then broadly tell others how to shoot to 300. It’s comical. You want to learn to be effective at 300, learn to shot to 600. The little imperfections in form, load, rifle etc are amplified. No different then your bow.

I’v used plex and it’s fine under 300 but starts to get squirrelly over 300 if wind is up. Swaro has a good reticle the 4w note it only works at full power and 1/2 with some math.

You bought a 300 to stretch it’s legs, do so. You don’t have to go all NF or Kahles but as others have suggest you don’t want you optics to be your limiting ability.

Personally I would pick a scope with great optical performance with horizontal wind marks such has Swaro 4w, or luppy wind plex etc. then send off the rifle have a load worked up and then verify and burn some ammo.

Good luck congrats on the new rifle.

Agree with bobo

Why limit yourself or potential. So many good options to reduce error no matter how far you shoot

All this talk about vertical drops with little mention about crosswind

Interesting that your method is remarkably like the ones you tell OP to ignore.
No one is or has slammed anyone for shooting over 300 yards on this thread.

I didn't see anybody slamming for shooting over 300, only slamming I've seen was from those trying to talk a man into a scope he said right of the bat he didn't want.

400 dollar Ruger American Predator
25 dollar Weaver Rings
200 dollar Nikon Scope.
Winchester ammo on the left.
Hornady ammo on the right.

Now what makes you think that a man than can shoot like that at 100 is incapable of shooting past 300?

I'm a "turret" guy but dont find them necessary when I hunt most of the time. I do like to dial and take shots at coyotes and pigs just to say I killed it at XXX distance. I do however find a good hashed reticle useful so I dont have to guess. If I miss its bc I made a bad shot and do my best to eliminate all variables. I'm also a mil guy but there just weren't and "mil" hunting scopes that I liked and opted for a razor HD LH with HSR4 reticle. The glass is good, the reticle isnt too busy but has minimal and accurate wind and elevation hashes. If a duplex works for you, get a duplex, IM just not comfortable with one anymore. I dont get to hunt elk, sheep, antelope often so when I go I want to make damn sure I get a kill.

I’ve been told several times on this forum by multiple people that a decent scope starts at $1000 and a good scope starts at $1500. Apparently, I’ve been hunting with crap all these years and didn’t realize it.

First I said I have a 250 yard zero on my main hunting rifle(with a plex reticle), so rest of your post is irrelevant, and second I didn’t reference you. Third, Have you ever slammed anyone for a hunting range over 300-600? I’ve never seen you do it. I know you aren’t found of extreme range but that’s not what we are talking about.

Congrats on the 100 yard group, you already know that it with in itself it doesnt tell you anything about where it will hit at 300 yards though, So no idea why you posted it.

If you now don’t agree with checking your ammo to all ranges you plan on shooting then you now started giving bad advice, something I have never seen you do before.

As you stated I’ve been doing it all wrong. I’ve said many times my favorite general purpose hunting scope is the Leupold FX series. Although I own more expensive scopes that do have a purpose the only thing that might change my opinion on the FX series is the meopta 6x42 I’m seeing around. At least I think it’s meopta.

By the way did mention FX-5 3-15 to ya txtrophy85? Lol.

jeffbird, I think we all strive for shots that result in instant death of our quarry. However, what I can state as absolute fact, spanning 46 years of hunting medium and big game is that you never can predict how an animal will react to being shot. You can take the exact same bullet, exact same rifle and shoot them in pretty much the exact same spot (NOT inc CNS shots) and you may get one animal that will run 100 yds, another that drops like a rock, and another that runs off somewhere in between. You can never predict with absolute certainty what the reaction will be. I've had the occasion to cull over 100 aoudad sheep over the years and they have shown these same tendencies.

I swear I don't know if your serious, joking or just trying to start chit. I shoot a 1/2 moa group with a 400 dollar rifle so you naturally assume I wouldn't know where it's hitting at 300. With that particular load and an 1 1/2 inch sight in it's 285 yards, with a 3 inch it comes in about the same as my 257 Weatherby. Might be one of the reason all my rifles shoot about the same velocity 3500 fps plus, so they all have similar trajectory's. Makes it easier on us old farts who some think can't shoot past 300 yards.

The other way of doing this. Despite what some would have everyone believe, some of us are not bound by turrets. Making holds, using the reticle is absolutely a necessary skill. My customer yesterday dialed out to 800 yards, zeroed the turret back for 100 yards, then held elevation and wind out to 800. At the end of the day, he like everyone has said "400 yards does not seem like a big deal.

So...

Instead of how high on an animal to hold, we have a place on the reticle to hold. The data for one of my rifles and loads are as followed:

100 yards 0
200 yards .4
300 yards .8
400 yards 1.6
I'll stop there.

Make those numbers be, a place on the reticle. On this Mil based reticle there are .5 Mil hashes, and 1.0 Mil dots. So coming from center, zeroed at 100 the first hash down equates to .5, so invent .1 less, and that's a 200 yard hold. The first dot below center is 1.0, so that dot would be put on vitals at 300 yards. Go almost to the second dot down from center, and you have a 400 yard hold.



No dialing, no turrets, just using the reticle as it was designed. A known (not estimated) place for the vitals to be placed on the reticle. Only two scope adjustments might need to be made, magnification and/ or focus.

As BIL mentioned, wind. There is an easy formula to remember for wind. 5 mph at 3 or 9 o'clock. OP's .300 Win Mag

200 yards .1
300 yards .2
400 yards .3

Hold a known place for elevation, hold as best you can judge wind speed for wind drift. Practicing shooting in the wind is the only way to get good at judging what it is doing down range. Once you're good at judging speed, you have a known place to hold on the reticle for drift.

Hard numbers, not "abouts" or "close enoughs".

And this reticle is infinitely flexible. Change rifles, loads, or ammo, and you get a new set of numbers. New set of numbers, new place to hold on the reticle. I works from .22lr to .50 BMG, and everything in between.

JG,

I concur. My point was that I use the NF scope and turrets to increase my level of precision for "close" range, not because I want to shoot animals at long-range as seems to be the default assumption in many of the comments. Also, NF's can be used on traditional style hunting rifles, not all are set up as long range 15# rifles. So, just adding another facet to the discussion to dispel some misunderstandings that are used to disparage people using NF or similar scopes.

If someone wants to use a duplex reticle on their forever rifle that's fine with me. I would like to see the man have the most reliable scope he can for the rifle though. Some of these tags are a once in a lifetime deal, so it would seem logical to eliminate or at least reduce as many potential sources of failure as possible.

Is there a right or wrong way to do things in choosing a scope? Not necessarily.

Are there some scopes that have a dramatically better track record for reliability? That objectively is yes, whether people are willing to accept it or not.

So, I am focusing on precision and reliability, not focusing on shooting animals at long range.

HWY,

until the setup is really shot at 300 yards, the numbers are just predictions. Shoot the paper at 300 to see what really happens. Those are known as "true statements," data verified by actually checking what happens. I've seen rifle, scope, ammo combinations that were fantastic at 100 yards and were horrible at 300 or even 200 yards. There is no substitute for really shooting and verifying results.

^^Agreed

That reticle would drive me to distraction. OP specifically said he didn’t want that type of reticle. Yet, here it is. Imagine that.

And please don’t anyone preach to me about how to use it, how it can aid in precision, etc.,etc. I know how it works.
For shots under 400, I don’t care. See above.

Basically, it’s pretty annoying to hear over and over again about how one needs to shoot over 400 to “get the most out of the rifle”, that “close enough” to kill animals cleanly every time at the stated ranges somehow isn’t good enough, that one must practice LR to be proficient at short range, and all other manner of preaching.

Especially when the OP said very straightforwardly yet nicely in the opening post that he didn’t want to hear it. But of course, no matter. Everyone has to hear it.

All the more amazing when the preaching is to guys who have taken upwards of 1000 big game animals between them all over the globe.

Here’s why I don’t care to be over 400: if I can’t get within 400 yards of an animal then I don’t consider I’ve hunted him, and he’s won the day. I’m hunting, not target practicing on game that’s so far away they probably wouldn’t detect me if I stood up and started singing “Dixieland”.

I’m not asking anyone to adopt my philosophy as theirs may be different and that’s what makes the world go round I guess. But no one has the right to be dismissive or condescending because I hold it either.

And if I can hit within an inch or two or three quickly while hunting at ranges of 400 and under, the animal is just as dead as your shot that hit within 3/4” of where you were aiming - after you did all your holdover figuring, picked the right reticle subtensions, dialed the right vertical and horizontal, looked at your chart, or whatever else you want to do. Again, that’s fine if you like doing it that way. But my way is fine too.

Why not just us MPBR and forgo the holds and dialing? If a hunter is only concerned with shooting 400 yards and in, it may be the simplest route.
Shooting 185 VLDs should give you ~2900fps and a ~440 yard MPBR.

There are two different discussions/debates going in this thread, that is one, the other is reliability.

MPBR vs. making a correction, whether dialed or held, comes down to what level of precision is needed or desired in making the shot.

Each person has to answer that for themselves. Is aiming for center of mass good enough?

Reliability is a different discussion.

Right, but I see a few on here claiming you can't make holds with a duplex because there aren't any subtents on the reticle. Using MPBR doesn't require holds.

Man if y’all want to have a discussion unrelated to his question as this whole thread has been start a new thread. If you want to comment on a scope that meets his criteria then please do.

Txtrophy85 if you want to I have a decent left handed set up with the VX-6 HD on it you can play with for a couple of weeks. It is the firedot duplex you’re interested in. Same glass and reticle as the VX-5 HD just extra bells and whistles that I personally could do without. PM me if you want to play with one before you buy.

I was wondering same about you. I didn’t say you hadn’t verified it to 300 yards? Show me if I did.

My 5 shot 100 yard group out of a $500 remmy sps factory 257wby is also irrelevant to a 300 yard point of impact conversation. It’s tells no body any thing about where it will impact at 300 yards. Correct me if I’m wrong if does it. Is it 3000fts load or ? or 3450ft/s load?




Obviously I own a 257 wby and already stared I have a 250 zero, so I get speed. My point was don’t trust box of ammo ballistics, which you seem to agree with. So not sure where the issue seems to be

Only other thing you could take issue with I’ve said is percision shooting longer ranges will make you shoot better at short ranges.. im sure you don’t disagree with that, from past posts.

I think all of the precision we are talking about is theoretical rather than actual. Most hunting rifles shoot a 6-7" group at 400 yards, if you bench rest them. Dialing the distance may change your point of aim by 2" but the bullet is likely to hit in the same area, give or take.

You would have to assume it isn't being shot at that distance to make that comment. These rifle ride with me daily and all my shooting is done on the ranch. Here's the typical sight in procedure for one of my rifles. Park the truck and pick a flat rock at about 300 yards. Pick a spot on the rock and start moving it in until I'm dead on. From there I'm likely to pick a cactus pad at at 100 just to fine tune. About the only time I shoot paper is just to take a picture of it to post here. I shoot everyday sometimes multiple times a day depending on what I run across, this time of year it's mostly Jackrabbits. Inside 100 yards I'm comfortable and consistent with a 22 pistol, outside I'll switch to a 243 running just under 4000 fps and I'm very comfortable and consistent to ranges exceeding 300 yards. Some of us have just lived a different life in a different world than others, for us the world doesn't revolve around paper. steel plates and the range! With that said it doesn't mean we couldn't live in it and do quite well.

If you Make a perfect shot and no shooter errors occur, you are correct

But Don’t think of it like that, think of it as it will be amplification to where a bullet will end up in a 12” circle.

When you dial your amplification is from your exact point of aim which would be the middle of the circle. With MPBR/extended zero your amplification is where you either guessed the center of the circle to be(you made a vertical hold adjustment) or from the impact difference in actual vs sighted in range.

In a nut shell human shooting error is amplified less with percision dialing then with MPBR or extended zero. The error amplification maybe irrelevant at certain ranges, but it is an amplification you just need to make sure you are good with it.

I’m good with it to 300-350. A lot of people are, my groups got a lot smaller once I started shooting to 600 though.

Lol it’s like watching a teenager using the navigation on his smart phone trying to show Grandpa how to get back to the house he’s lived in for 50 years, and getting frustrated when he tells them he’s fine.

That pretty much says it all.

Watch out NP. You and Hwy Man are on the verge of getting a callout shooting contest challenge levied on your asss.

Actually I made the offer about a year or so ago and had no takers. The 10 rock challenge! 100 dollars a shot, 10 targets at unknown distances, unknown angles. Duplex scopes only (No mil-dots, no rangefinders, wind meters) and you can't touch the scope while the contest is on. I was going to shoot my 300 Weatherby with factory ammo and a 4x12x42 Nikon.

let them use mil dots. if the range is unknown the effectiveness of a mil-dot is lessened.

I almost would take you up on that challenge, just for the fun of it.


of course I have slighty higher magnification and mil dots ( have no idea how many MOA they are) on my weatherby but the ballistics would be about the same. I think it would be a good test of shooting skills....I've shot quite a few rocks in my day.

You are supposed to use the mildots to determine the distance. A mildot covers 36" at 1000 meters, so if the dot is the same size as a truck tire, the truck is about 1000 meters away.

if i'm shooting at a truck this is good info to know

Ok I'll have to draw the line on a 10 shot truck challange unless we can talk 7mag into bringing his truck.

A bull elk is roughly 36" from the brisket to the top of the shoulder. A deer is probably half of that.

It's a crude way of ranging but that's what the dots are for. Now that we all have rangefinders, the dots are not as common and most scope just have hash marks for aiming.

Word

Man after reading thru this thread I’ve come to realize it’s amazing thst I’ve killed animals period.


Pretty sobering now thst I’ve come to grips with the situation

Excellent point. Many of the same guys who go apoplectic at those who shoot a rifle with a 3-3.5” MPBR deviation think nothing about shooting at ranges where even 1/2 MOA groups are at least that and MOA groups are two or more times that. IF you have the rifle and skill set to make that happen.
All the while preaching about the need for “precision”.

In short, if one person can put his bullet with 4” of point of aim at 300 yards and another person can put his bullet within 4” of point of aim at 500 yards (no easy task but some can do it), how is the second person a more “ethical” hunter than the first as long as both stay within their limitations?

I guess “precision” is not as important at long range.

So....What scope are you leaning towards after 22 pages of input?

Did you mean to spread incorrect information? Or is that what you believe, a dot is an entire mil?

Well then why don't you just correct the error and let it go. Unless you'd like to have another page or two of argument, of course.

How many posts since a thoughtful suggestion was made in answer to the OP's question?

I'm beginning to think everyone should just take a break from THF and sit in the pool with a pina colada or two for the rest of the afternoon.

Fixed 8x56mm Schmidt a friend has is a bad mofo for general hunting. It is a touch high with the 56mm objective but it is absolutely solid.

Well yes, I did think a mil-dot was an entire mil. I apologize if that is incorrect information.

Because he may have been kidding. I didn't know, that's why I asked.

It is not. The old dots were .2 in diameter. However, they do represent a yard apart, one from the other, at 1000 yards 1/2 a yard a aprt at 500, ect. But ranging with them can almost be considered a parlor trick now days. It's one of the last things they're used for. Laser range finders have been around for a very long time, and decent ones can be had for not much money. I explained more of what the Mil dots or hashes are used for several posts back.

Recheck your math/conversions

A mildot covers about 36 inches at 1000 yards and 39.37 inches at 1000 meters. Logic still works though.

I think I need to drink.

A Mil is a yard at a thousand yards, a meter at a thousand meters, an inch at a thousand inches, a centimeter at a thousand centimeters, ect. It's a ratio, more than anything.

But a guy doesn't even really need to know all that, in order to use the reticle.

This would have been much easier if President Carter put us on the metric system like he wanted.

Haven't had a drink in about 4 years but some people can sure put the pressure on ya.

Agree 100%. I was told as a kid in school that we were going to convert to the metric system (early to mid '70's). We all hated the idea until we started learning it, then we loved it. To this day, I curse the fact this country never converted.

I agree, silly we are not on it.

They told us the same thing in the early 60s. Even then I knew hell would freeze over first.

But in machining, and in loading ammo, we use thousandth and even ten thousandths.

Then go to building a structure and you're using a fractional tape measure.

Some kids have trouble figuring out both.

The United Nations should crack down on us and force us to adopt the metric system. The English don't even use English units anymore, we shouldn't either.

vx3 4.5 x14 with 30mm tube ought to do it
they make a simple duplex or b&c reticle

&$*@ the UN.

Agreed. I have a couple and am happy with them.

I thought all the VX3 variants have 1” tubes?

I have a Leupold VX3i 4.5-14x40 CDS. It has a Duplex reticle and exposed elevation turret so you have the option of dialing if you want to. I am thinking seriously about getting the same scope with the Wind Plex reticle to make long range wind holds a little more consistent, but I love the scope. I've dialed out to 1,000 and back and the tracking is true. You can get them for around $500. Another bonus is it's lighter than a lot of other scopes.

I'm not sure about the standard VX3 line, but the VX3i line is available with either 1" or 30mm tubes.

I have a VX3L 4.5-14x56 CDS (the one with the bottom of the objective cut out) on my 300wm and have been happy with it. It has a duplex reticle but I'm in the dialing camp. I've shot it out to 1,000 yards and really wished it had at least windage marks like the windplex reticle noted above. I made that shot with a stiff wind and was holding in what I felt was never-never land. In fact, I'm considering sending it off to Leupold to have that reticle installed.

Has anyone gone back and reread Page 1 of this discussion? The OP states that he does have interest in learning how to use a BDC or other type reticle and realizes the "Kentucky" way may not be the best.

I'm relatively new here so it's been interesting getting to know y'all over the last day or so. Lots of super experts. Would be interesting to see both methods at work by their masters on the same range, say in July in Wolfe City. I'd even bet that we would all share a cold brew after showcasing each's talents. If it happens, I'll bring a full ice chest.

I don't remember if I have suggested this or not, but how about a Burris Veracity? It is a relatively compact ffp scope with a recitcle to help adjust to wind and elevation. I honestly don't understand how that reticle works but it is less busy than a mildot or christmas tree recticle.

Most people think the christmas tree is too busy, it is but at least it's intuitive. The Veracity reticle was designed for hunters so it can't be that difficult, I just haven't messed with it.

Actually, it could be a bunch of fun and nice to put faces with names.

I would show up. Cooler weather in October might have a better turnout.

I would like to see some more reviews on this scope. It looks really good from what I've seen.

I agree but they will not. They will hide behind a keyboard and just trash threads like this when we recommend something they do no understand. Fact is... IT IS NOT THAT [censored] DIFFICULT. I have never shot an animal over 150 yards. Steel and meat are 2 two different things but I get grouped with the paper punchers because I know the rifle will hit 6" of steel at 600 yards. I would need more time at the range to ever take a shot at an animal. Those two elk cows Jason killed last year were under 500 yards. He owns the range so he is alittle closer to where that bullet ends up than I am.

Who owns an Iphone?

And Nogales. Before you jump my chit I grew up shooting duplex scopes. My first deer was killed with one in fact. Thousands of .22 rounds came out of my grandfathers marlin lever action .22 that I was taught on. Dad and my grandfather did not know MBRP so I improvised and made the process a little easier.

I'm sorry if anyone, including me have offended you. Being a "paper puncher" isn't necessarily a bad thing. I do it, but not good enough to do it while hunting. I actually have a scope with a christmas tree reticle and turrets. I use it at the range but I struggle to make it work while hunting. The problem is time. I estimate that I have about 15 seconds (on average) to pull the trigger before the animal disappears over the ridge or into the trees. That just isn't enough time for me to put down my binoculars, pick up my laser and use it, get out my phone and use it, flop on my belly, dial the scope and shoot.

I'm open to suggestions on how to speed that up.

LMFAO... Really... That post is even dumber than that bull chit you posted in the OT.

The axis doe was within 15 seconds of walking out. Ranged with an RX1000i and squeezed. She ate very well. The whitetail was the blowing bitch that hung around that area. She busted me on the morning hunt and what is left of her is in the freezer. I think we are out. #14lbsavage#burrisXTRII#meatontheground.

That ship has sailed. How do you force companies like Boeing to go to metric when their entire industry is built on English units? Aircraft frame bays are 20" or 24" or whatever. Sheet metal gauges are .030", .040", 050", .063", .080", etc. Altitude is listed in feet.

They found out the hard way that it just isn't going to happen. We have gone way too far down the road of inches and feet to all of a sudden adopt something else. What about acres of land? Or inches of water barometric pressure? This is stuff that adult Americans are used to.

As an engineer, the metric system based on units of 10 makes a ton of sense since our numbering system is base 10. But I also recognize the cost of switching right now and realize that it's just not going to happen. There is too much money involved in that type of transition and little to no benefit to those who would have to absorb the cost.

It has been attempted several times before. A day blocked off for MPBR shooters to come out and teach us how it works. No agressiveness toward them, just a friendly day at the range. Chad and I offered to document anything they wanted, and lets have a fun day at the range. Out of 10 MPBR preachers zero would come out. All hat, no cattle.

They will be along shortly to say they've been hunting for X amount of decades, have killed X amount of animals, and have no reason to come out and prove anything.

I would love to but i'm hunting in October, November, December......

When works for you?


If we do this next month, you could look at a lot of scopes before buying.


I went to a get together where 30 guys brought out all of their best scopes for side by side viewing and it really was helpful for buying decisions.

All of which is true.

On second thought, it does sound like loads of fun though.....drive 7 hours to listen to and watch a bunch of egomaniacs and their posse' proclaim their greatness. Sounds exactly how I'd like to waste a weekend.......

Yeah, no aggressiveness at all. All friendly.
Two sentences later comes the smarta** comments about “All hat, no cattle”, etc., etc. SMDH.

You’re right, I don’t have anything to prove. Not to you or anyone else. I know that’s hard for an insecure guy who’s whole world revolves around being the center of the universe to fathom. I’ve never said I was a better shot than you or anyone else. This thread was never about that. Ever. The controversy started when some insisted the MPBR method was “asinine” and “unethical”. That has been thoroughly debunked. You debunked it yourself when you bragged about how effective you are using a duplex reticle. In your ever-present zeal to issue “challenges” to anyone and everyone, you proved our point - and most of your acolytes went away.

So now the subject must be changed and here comes another of your “challenges”. Why does every thread end up with them? It’s stupid.

But, since you insist on fanning the flames, I’ll be blunt as to the bottom line reason I would never accept one of your silly “challenges”:

I don’t like you. And I don’t waste my time being in the company of people I don’t like.

You have a preconceived notion of how it would be. I mind my manners as long as everyone else does. You would hear, "Welcome, thanks for coming. Is there anything you need? Move your things to the platform, feel free to use the spotting scope and identify everything on the range".

But you'd rather talk out of both sides of your mouth. MPBR this and that. Then draw Todd like a gun. A man that knows Mil and MOA scopes very well. So which is it?

JGR,

it is a five hour drive for me.

The guys here really seem like a good bunch.

Let’s give it a try, there really is not much of a downside and it might be a good time.

Fine with me. But zero times has it come to fruition.

I said last time, those that can come and smoke every target to 400 with a duplex, will hear Chad and I as their biggest cheerleaders. Because it is more difficult than using a Mil or MOA scope.

It's both, MPBR and dialing, although I have only dialed at targets until I know WTH I'm doing and am confident. Yes, I bring up Hodnett, and a guy named Tubb. I get to pick their brains from time to time, and they are legitimate experts, inarguably. I'm not.

That's what some of us are trying to get across. Once someone learns how to use them, shots are easier, zero doubt about it. I have everyone dial, start over and hold. I know just as well as anyone there isn't always time to dial. That's what the reticle is for.

jeffbird, you're one of the good guys around here IMO. I appreciate that. I have a range 15 minutes away that goes to 600, and my buddy's place is 1.5 hrs away that goes to 1000 and is loaded with hogs. While I am quite sure I would learn something out there, 7 hours would be a total waste of time for me.

You'll get no disagreement out of me with any of that. My disagreement is with the MPBR cannot be an quick, easy, and effective way to kill animals, as it absolutely can, and has proven it to me numerous times over the years. Dialing is not always the best route to go within MPBR ranges.

With the Raider in the handle, I'm guessing a Tech connection, and for the record it's 5:45 from Caprock Cafe to here... and I wouldn't drive it to come shoot for the fun of it either!

And that is the subject of this thread because OP stated he wanted a duplex scope.
JG started all the controversy with this asinine comment to the OP:

“OK, I’m out. I hope you don’t have to track them too far, if at all.”

He has been trying to change the subject ever since. It’s as simple as that.

The silly shooting challenges are always the “go-to” method for doing so in every instance.

I would attend and bring some rifles set up for MPBR, but not in hunting season. It should be fun to meet some of the posters here and shoot with them. I am 3.5 hours south of DFW, so it would be a long drive, but I like to shoot and I'm not interested in making a case that either system is superior. I have no illusions that MPBR is in the same ballpark of precision as the same rifle equipped with a purpose built scope, equipped with a functional long range reticle and good repeatable turrets, combined with a rangefinder and verified dope. I'm not even convinced that the benefit of MPBR while hunting in certain situations can be showcased on a range. The nobrainer simplicity, when rapid target acquisition without thought, rather than utmost precision is your priority, is the payoff. I do think it is the simplest system to become proficient at. Precision and range are what it costs you though. Sometimes it is a nice fit sometimes it's not. When I set up a rifle to use where that makes sense, I put the money I save on turrets and reticle into better glass.

Very well stated.

My opinion of whitetail vital area is 8". That is the size of my "big target" at 400 yards. My "big target" at 200 yards is 4". I was thinking place 8" targets at 200, 300, and places in between. That's vitals sized steel for the distances in the discussion.

My bet is actually EVERYONE will get it done at 200 yards. Then less percentage at 300, and less still at 400.

Probably a pretty good prediction.

TXTrophy....here you go, on sale for a pretty good price:

https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Leupold..._eid=fe93d4dd7d

+1. Basically what has been said throughout this thread. Everyone discussing MPBR has stated from the get-go it is not as precise as turrets and busy reticles, but is precise enough for clean kills and brings the other benefits you describe to the table.

That's nice right there...

That’s the exact scope I got but I’m pretty sure I paid $100-200 more. Can’t remember for sure.

I have no dog in this fight but I do think its silly for a target shooter to challenge a hunter to a target shooting match. I mean who do you expect to win that contest??? LOL!! Be kinda like a pro Bass fisherman challenging a Carp fisherman to a Bass fishing contest. Wonder whos gonna win. LOL

Hunting aint target shooting, and target shooting aint hunting. Both require different skill sets and different equipment. Yes some lines can be blurred between the two when it comes to equipment but most people that are serious about hunting or serious about target shooting have specialized equipment for that particular use.

Anyone ever seen the Realtree video of the gold medal Olympic archery champion whiff on a world class typical? I mean the guy was clearly the best in the world when it came to target shooting, but when it came time to make what should have been a chip shot on the buck of a life time he missed him clean.

Just hold on there I'm a carp fisherman and I resemble that comment......

Once again, I can't very well tie down deer and hogs on my range for everyone to practice on.

This preconceived notion of only bench shooting only prone shooting on my range is false. We get out shooting sticks, backpacks, shoot off the sibe by side, shoot off a tree limb, everything that can happen out hunting. Bench and prone is for testing rifles, scopes and ammo. Once those boxes are checked, it is time to get in the positions one encounters while hunting.

There's also thousands of target shooters that kill everything they mean to kill, usually in one clean shot. The notion that you are more so one or the other is prosperous. Practice on whatever targets you want, to prepare for a shot on an animal.