1/4 MOA

Who here, benchrest guys included, thinks they could start at 100 yards and shoot 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800 900, & 1000 yards and keep it under 1/4 MOA?

http://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6396593/7

You must have missed this break through.

I can do it with open sights on an AR15

I highly doubt I could, but I’d love to try it with a rifle that can.

On the internet with no witnesses I could do that all day long.

Nobody

with a 1894 shooting factory loads.....

/oneupping sapper

Trying to hold 1 MOA all the way out would be a considerable challenge if every shot counted with no sighters or mulligans.

I'm not saying it can't be done by someone in tbis world....


But I'm almost saying it can't be done. Any little missed read in the wind, and it is a miss. After, of course perfect ammo, a scope that can dial tight enough, and a shooter with impeccable form.

Nope I cannot

Out to 1,000 yards?

Anything is possible once. I have serious doubts that anyone could do it with any level of consistency. But if you shoot enough groups, I figure it's not out of the realm of possibility you could get a 2.5" group at 1,000 yards.

But to start out at the beginning and say you're going to do it every 100 yards out to 1,000 with one group at each 100 yard interval, that's a tall task...

That is a tall order, but with all the 1/4 MOA shooters on the internet someone I am sure it has been done.

Nope, not for me. I like to bet, so I'd say within 1/2 to 3/4 might be possible for me. But the wind is going to mess you as soon as you get out past 500-600 yards. If it's a zero wind day, or very slight breeze, that would help. With the right rifle and load, I'd say 1/2 is doable.

I'd have to run a 100 round ladder test and develop the perfect load

Then find a used Tikka ultralite

mount a Vortex Diamondback scope

Put on my 5.11 tactical pants

Use my wiebie bad bags for rests

get some suggestions on how to clean the tikka

run my brian litz dope cards through my labradar

Rent a D-9, clear 200 yards of trees at a firemans buddies farm

load and make ready

geterdone

Jack Reacher could do. LOL

I think it's easy. Just build an underground range and go for it.

And a west Texas flat, plowed field. Put any terrain changes, and any foliage and it's a new ball game. That is evident in my range every day.

indoor range?

I bet Quigley can!

No way. There's this thing called wind.......

1/4 MOA? I sincerely doubt it.

No...to hit that level of accuracy you'd almost have to have a tuned load for every distance. You'd probably run out of barrel life before you accomplished that.

Pffft, 7 Rem Mag and 180's at 3000 will do it!

On the internet there are already scads who do it all the time, "if they do their part". Real world, whew. That's 50 consecutive perfect shots at .25 MOA out to 1000. Including doping the wind. That is a well beyond my gear and capabilities. It is a feat that would require perfection in all facets.

If I could put 5 at each distance on a 16 inch gong all the way out to 1000 with no misses, I'd be happy happy happy. But something ALWAYS happens when you get out to the longer distances. And keeping it at .25 MOA? No freakin' way! At least not for me.

Should one clean the barrel between groups

Not a smart one.

These are the responses that I expected, and I agree 100% that it may be possible when the stars align, the earth stops spinning, and gravity ceases to exist.

Here is why I ask...

Now it doesn’t outright say he held 1/4 MOA, but it does imply that he did. Aim small miss small is what I think they were trying to say, but who knows, it’s FB and everything is true in FB

If your rifle is 1/4 moa at 100, then it's 1/4 moa at further distances. The groups might get larger, but the rifle is still 1/4 moa. An example is that I have several rifles that shoot sub moa. They would still be sub moa at 1000 yards even with a group larger than 1.047 (or whatever the number is). It's really not an audacious claim to make that your sub moa rifle is still sub moa at longer ranges.

A more accurate question (pun intended), would be could you shoot 1/4 inch groups out to those distances mentioned.

https://www.nssf.org/shooting/minute-angle-moa/

That’s what my question was. Could YOU

And technically 1/4 MOA at 1000 would be 2.6175 inches, but we will call it 2.5inches for simplicity.

To put a finer point on it, the rifle should be the same regardless of distance, but ammo definitely is not, and of course the wind really is the huge variable.

I could maintain 1/4 minute of barn to 1,000 yards with no problem, possibly 1/8.

Well, that is completely untrue.

Plenty of times there have been good shooting, 1/4 MOA, 100 yard rifles, with a poor ES. Run that poor ES a quarter mile or farther, and it will begin to open up.

Yes, I can shoot the rifle that tight.
I cannot judge the wind that tight, and I relly don't want to put the time in to build ammo that will do it beyond 500. Judd and I, and Chad and I discussed it today. Lots of extra work will come into play, and I just don't want to go through the trouble.

You’re not understanding the point. You teach shooting, this is a basic concept.

No one ever could keep the same group unless you intentionally sandbagged your 100 yard group, and tailored loads to each distance.. It’s a statistical and logical improbability. Even with a perfect .00000000 moa weapon; it’s always going to open up at farther ranges.

O really... Please expand on this point please.

Read the link.

Why is something so easy escaping your grasp? A 1/4 moa gun is still 1/4 moa at 3000 yards even if the group opens up.

Basic concepts are one thing. Real world performance is another. You're way out in the weeds.

This isn’t about “real world” performance. This is a fact (a rather basic one). I’m not even debating other factors. They don’t matter.

A shooter would still have a 1/4 moa rifle at 4 miles no matter what he did wrong. He may have a 20 foot group, but it’s still 1/4 moa.

I am not arguing with an idiot tonight. I got chit to do tomorrow.

I give up. It’s a rather simple concept. Apparently the NSSF are idiots too.....

If I have 1/4 moa rifle; it’s still 1/4 moa at 1000 yards shooting about 2.6 inches. What defines 1/4 moa changes as distance changes.

You are reading things into what I assume is NSSF's definition of MOA. What JG has tried to explain to you is fact---just because a rifle is shooting MOA at 100 does not mean it will be shooting MOA at 1000. There are reasons for this, and they have EVERYTHING to do with real world performance. You are already in a hole. Stop digging, put the shovel down, and listen.

Show me this 1/4 MOA rifle. We get the concept sherlock holmes.

Tenyearsgone hasn’t said anything that’s incorrect. Y’all just ain’t pickin’ up what he’s puttin’ down.

we aren’t on his level

It’s not just their opinion. It’s a scientific fact acknowledged by everyone who understands. His opinion doesn’t matter and is illogical. Frankly, I’m shocked such a basic concept eludes him.

This is about a rifle’s easily achievable capability, not someone’s ability miraculously changing at long range. I was pointing out OP’s misnomer of a question in an attempt to educate him.

I didn’t measure that particular group, but I just posted one in the ammo section that probably shot 1/4 moa today. That’s the innaccurate load too.

My 1/4 moa rifles have been posted and discussed before.

what a rifle chambered in a slow bullet. It may shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 but the bullet becomes too slow and unstable at further distances and will be nowhere close to 1/4 MOA. A gun is only as good as its ammo and ammo is only as good as the gun and it takes both being good to be consistent from 100-1000 yards.

Show it or IDGAF. You are claiming something bench rest guys cannot prove. I think you are full of chit. Just my opinion though.

You’re not understanding Sapper. MOA and group size are not the same.

A mile is what, 1760 yards? If I have a gun that shoots 1/4 moa, the group size should be about 4.5”. It’s still a 1/4 moa gun. The number value changes as distance gets longer.

I’ve posted the groups before.

I’m not claiming anything impossible. Benchrest guys prove it all the time. I don’t think you’re understanding the difference in moa and group size. A 1/4 moa rifle will make about a 2.5-2.6 inch group at 1000 yards. It’s still a 1/4 moa gun.

I get that but bullet performance can change and become less consistent at longer distances. A gun that shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 might shoot a 15 inch group at 1000 yds and that ain’t no 1/4 MOA.

nobody on here think 1/4 MOA at 1000 yds is 1/4”.

If it shoots 1/4 moa at 100, it still is at 1000 even if the shooter didn’t do his part.

Seems like the question asked was simple. Who thinks they could start at 100 yards and shoot a .25 inch group. Then a .5 inch at 200, .75 at 300, 1 at 400, so on until 2.5 at 1000. Dont know where it got off the rails to "if your gun shot .25 at 100 it automatically shoots 2.5 at 1000"

In terms of pure MOA (not talking about a gun here) you are correct 1/4 MOA at 100 yards is 1/4 MOA at 1,000 yards.

But what the others are trying to say here is just because your gun shoots 1/4" at 100 yards doesn't mean it will shoot 1/2" at 200, 1" at 400 and 2.5" at 1,000. There are lots of dynamics that come into play as the bullet speed changes while it is gong downrange.

What I am saying is you can have Load A that shoots 1/4 MOA at 100 yards but at 1,000 yards only holds 2 MOA and you can have load B that shoots 1/2 MOA at 100 yards and all the way out to 1,000 yards. Or in other words, your best load at 100 yards may not be your best load at 1,000 yards.

Ok ten, it's not that simple. A good solid 1/4 MOA load @ 100 yards with a velocity spread of a mere 10 fps in my 7 RM will deterioratate to almost a 1/2 MOA load @ 1,000 due to a 2.1" variation in drop that had not manifested at 100 yards. That is if my hold is perfect. Factor in the wind and things get a lot more difficult. Distance amplifies shot to shot variation. Both wind and velocity and the effect is not linear.

It looks to me like there are two parallel arguments going here. Both sides are technically correct in their own arguments, they just aren't technically arguing the same thing.

EDIT: The OP's question was gray, but one group is arguing white and the other is arguing white.

3 shot or 5 shot group ?



for you long range guys , what would you say your average competitor shoots group size
under ideal conditions. ?

MO

Average shooter, probably 3/4 to 1.5 moa, depending on the wind. Your top shooters can shoot better than that.

I have seen a shooter call his cold bore shot (first round, cold bore) to hit the bolt hanging the steel target at 800 yards. And he did it. Not the 1 moa target itself, but the bolt hanging the target. We were floored, and he said he'd hit it at 900 also, if needed. And I certainly believed him.

Once you know a rifle and your ammo intimately, you become very proficient with it. The problem I see is most shooters play around with too many bullets, loads, rifles and scopes, instead of just settling down on one set up (ammo, scope, rifle, etc) to get good at it.

This is why I train with a 308, and when needed pull out the 6.5 for flatter trajectory and less wind. The 308 will teach you wind.

This is why I sold my Tikka 223 (other than using that as leverage to get my CTR). I wanted to focus on one rig, one caliber, one load. So my CTR is the only bolt gun I own and will be for the foreseeable future until I shoot out the factory barrel and build a semi-custom on the action.

Fact!

I almost want to say, build a trainer (for poaitional shooting) only at least after you have hand loaded enough, and shot enough to shoot out one barrel. I am finally going to have a trainer after putting over 1000 down a .308, and shooting out two 6.5mm barrels.

I'm thinking 1/2 to 1 MOA, at 100 yards. Those numbers do not carry beyond that.

My game is different from the sniper game (JG loves it when I refer to it as such ) I shoot long range bench rest. You better hold a 1/3 in ideal conditions and 1/2 in heavy wind and/or mirage...and be able to put them where you need them. That is to be competitive and have a chance at winning...I'd say average guy probably shoots 1/2 in ideal and 3/4 in less than ideal conditions.

That's about what I see out of myself and my shooting buddies. And then throw in that occasional explainable (I'm sure there's a reason, I just didn't catch it) flyer that happens every now and then.

I’m a 1MOA shooter at best, at 100 yards. Took gun out to 800 yards few weeks ago and couldn’t ring the 1 MOA plate, but wore out the 2 MOA. I get lucky every now and again and pull off some stupid small group, and then I won’t see that for another 2-3 years.

So for me to think that I could hold 1/4 MOA out to 1000 yards without any type of rest is wishful thinking.

Ammo was much of your problem. There are not too many mass produced boxes of ammo that will hit that 1 MOA plat at 800 yards. A hand-load on the other hand...

Not a chance many if they are being honest imo. I could make hits consistently at moa out to 700/800 and 1.5 to 2.0 moa in ideal conditions and knowing the variables off the bench with someone confirming with calls. At 100 maybe 200 I'd take a 1/4 moa challenge and feel reasonably confident with mess around money but not further.

Great point with the 308 I do the same with 5.56 since it's much cheaper. In fact after reading your deep thoughts post I probably have the most comfort with my 5.56 even though I have rifles that are better. It's what I get most trigger time with.

True. I don’t have the money, time, or space to reload right now. I have thought about having Chad work up a load for me, but I also think it would be money wasted on a factory barrel

I don't think I have any glass that would allow me to accurately keep the correct POA that tight regardless of the rifle, ammo, wind calls, or my ability to drive the gun. Though all those other things would be outside my abilities too, especially if I had either too much coffee or not enough.

-ww

Heck, in a couple of days (when I get home) i’ll hang some fresh targets at 100 yards and see if I can shoot a few 1/4 inch groups with my most accurate rifles. The guns will do it, and on some days I can do it. Seems like most days i’ll twitch a flyer when I have a good group going. On a good day, maybe I can still do it at 200, but out past that it’s not happening. I would be stunned to watch a guy hit a BOLT at 800 yards and call the shot. That’s big league stuff.

I just wonder how many on the forum could go out and shoot a 5 shot 1/4 inch group at 100 yards. We all have those targets that show that we did it once, or maybe even many times. But can you do it cold bore tomorrow? Take 5 rounds and try it. Saturday morning i’ll take my 3 most accurate rifles and try it. I probably can with that 260 that Chad had done for me. It has a great barrel and trigger. And the old 220 with the Douglas barrel can do it. The 223 can, but it’s lightweight and I have to be having a good day.

I think with cold bore it comes down to knowing the rifle intimately and having the components to do it. When ya think about it a 5 shot group is a 4 shot group with a cold bore. I also think shooting a 1/4 moa group is easier than hitting a 1/4 moa target. Some days my breathing and mechanics suck but still turn out good groups like 1/4 moa at 100yds, but since I might be pulling. They are not where I intended them. Those days show the rifles capabilities. when i hit my intended spot and produce those groups that's actually me.

As much coach used to say practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect


I wish I could practice more at extended range... someone who has practiced more will beat anyone with the best gear that hasnt

Not wasted on a factory barrel.

Today, I hit that 1 MOA 800, with a factory barrel.............and a hand load.

Fact.

BP we discussed this earlier I think. JG midway is back ordered on that press

Sigh, do I have to do everything?

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/4863

If I was buying a new single stage I would look at they coax or maybe the t-7. If you had a small number of calibers your die would always be locked in