Custom Rifles

I am interested to see who people's favorite custom builders are and why. I was looking at Alamo Precision and they seem like great shop. Would welcome anyone's experiences with their rifles

Alamo cut and recrowned a barrel for me. Never had a custom rifle built. Their rifle packages seem great. They strike me as an every mans custom gun shop. Not sure that they build ultra ultra high end stuff, but if I decide to have a rifle built, I’ll likely be going to them. They might do more high end stuff that I realize, but they were at least a really good shop to work with.

One of the guys I hunt with has a left hand 7-08 they built on a 700 action. 20" barrelI in a sporter style stock. It is a tack Driver. One hole 5 shot groups @ 100 with 140 gamekings over 42 grains of Varget. It is sweet!

I have several Horizon Firearms rifles. My rifles are built off of either Tikka or Remington actions and I have no regrets in using one of their Stillar actions (I am kind of cheap sometimes). Their rifles are very accurate and they have great customer service. It is also handy that they are in the same city I am.
I have also used Bobby Pitchford (Pitchford Custom Gun) in Waller. He also builds a very good rifle and they are accurate. Bobby will work with you to get you what you want.
I know there are several good builders out there that do good work. These are just the two whom I have used.

g

Jon Trammell (in Breckenridge) or Jonathan Stigall (Crimson Accuracy) in no order is who I use for all my stuff.

We have a lot of good gunsmiths in Texas. Call around get to know your gunsmith and go with the guy you like the best. I like both these guys and have become friends with them. I also like the fact they tell me I'm screwing up before I actually do it...that doesn't mean I always listen

I was in his shop last week!!

Thank you for the suggestions. I was trying to understand also how much more accurate they are versus off the shelf.

Yepper Jon's one of the best..........

I usually use Jon Beanland at Beanland Custom Rifles. He is very good and only 40 miles from my door. I have also used Mike Bryant (also very good, and only about 50 miles from me). Another I would not hesitate to use at all would be West Texas Ordnance. A good friend of mine has several of their rifles and they all shoot like crazy.

Hear great things about WTO. I also like McWhorter customs, and Hill Country Rifles a lot as well.

Have a couple, one from Trammell and one from Scott Weichel both rifles are very good shooters. Would not hesitate to use them again. Also APR and S&S are good to go as well.

The one Scott did has metric threads and he was the only local smith that said no problem doing those. The others just said no metric threads or didn't call me back to the message I left them. The rifle Scott did has beome my favorite centerfire rifle.

With a lot of factory rifles you are looking at hit or miss as to it being put together right one from a good smith you know it is put together right

Depends on what you want:

Alamo is slapping together a 6.5 PRC for me...I'll let you know...it will be a pimped up screwed together parts gun...Remmy 700, hardy barrel ect...I'm sure it will be fine.

One of my favorite guys is Dirk SHimmel in Gellitte Wy great guy--and a damn good gunsmith. Can do almost anything.

For blue steel and fine walnut...my first call would be TDK that post here--he is one of the best up and coming builders. He is good...wait not just good he is gooooood....

For a fine dangerous game rifle I have used Lon Paul--in tanglewood CA..he is another one that is a super nice guy and builds a hell of a rifle!

I have also had rifles built by Bill Wiseman, Tip Burns (no longer building), Rifles Inc, Ray Williams (retired), kampfield customs, AHR, and a few others...really have not been disappointed by any of these...

Depends on what off the shelf rifle you're going to get.

For an experienced shooter, I assume they're a little more accurate. For a novice shooter, you'd be much better off buying a nice factory rifle and a bunch of ammo to improve skills.

Night and day!! Factory rifles can shoot good, no doubt. But a full custom with tuned ammo will easily out shoot a factory rifle. You may notice it at 100 yards, but the differences will certainly show itself at longer ranges.

How about a good factory rifle with custom tuned ammo? To me its not a fair rifle comparison if your taking a good shooting factory gun with $17 Remington corelocks and comparing it to a custom with load work up for that specific rifle done.

How about accuracy of semi customs? Like savage prefits etc. that are properly installed?

The custom/semi customs I have nd those that I have shot beat all but two factory rifle I have handloaded for accuracy wise. One is a Remington 700 classic in 17 Remington, the other is a Cooper 53 in 65-284. The Remington shot its first 3 shots in a .125 inch group center to center. and that was with Remington Corelokts factory load. I have yet to duplicate that but just about everything I have fed it have been sub MOA even in load workup. Problem with that one is after 20 shots you have to remove copper from the barrel to restore accuracy.

The Cooper during load workup across 5 grains of powder range no 3 shot group was over 1.5 inches at 200 yards. Settled for a near max load that shot 5/8 groups at 200 yards with no vertical stringing. That rifle an shoot better than I can.

Semi customs shoot as well as or better than the Cooper and cost me about the same.

What do you guys believe constitutes a custom vs a semi-custom?

If I take a Tikka and have a gunsmith put a Bartlein on it and stick it in a McMillan, is that semi-custom? And a custom is usually a non-factory action with completely aftermarket components making up the rifle?

I have a semi custom 700 in 308. Blue printed, heavy lug installed and firing pin & spring swapped, barrel cut and threaded, Trigger tuned as well.Night and day the difference from when it was a factory PSS.
Sending my 300 win in after the first of the year for a barrel swap and truing as well. It shoots good now but it can be better.

Full custom should be built off of an action other than Rem, Tikka, etc. There are several companies that offer those. Mine are the semi-custom. I can't justify paying the extra money for anything else.
If you put a barrel on a Tikka, which I did and don't regret it, then it should be considered semi-custom. It will be custom to you, but, like one person told me, if you build a rifle off of a Remington 700 then you still have a Remington 700. Targets and/or animals don't really know what they are shot with. And Chad can get ammo to work for you.

just my 2 cents worth.

These days, it's hard to build a brand new custom when slightly used ones are available on the used market for a significant cost savings.

with that being said, I've had semi-customs built by both Horizon and Alamo. I would definitely take my business back to Horizon, Derrick was extremely helpful and had outstanding communication. I don't know if that's still the case with their gain in popularity, but I bet it is. Alamo built me a nice barreled action, but I was less than impressed with their communication process. There were many breakdowns in their ability to communicate with me as the consumer, and I'm not one of those guys that will call every 3rd day and drive them nuts. I had already mentioned asking for my money back before anyone realized that my frustration had elevated to that level. In the end, the manager stepped in and made things right, so I can't complain a whole lot. Hopefully I'm an isolated incident, because they really do seem like nice guys.

Man I disagree my Wiseman is a LH worked over Remmy 700...it is nothing like it was in factory form. From how it feeds to the way it feels when you close the bolt....

Ever heard of a guy name d'arcy echols...D'arcy is a great guy and uses almost solely Winchester M70...that action when you get it from D'arcy is nothing like it in factory form--his legend rifle is a true custom...David Miller also uses M70 actions--his guns use to start at $17.5K...I have a friend that has one of his marksman rifles...believe me...it's a custom--but built on a standard Winchester action.

Ed

Shared a sheep camp with D’Arcy back in 2006. He is a great guy. Still keep in touch.

I have a Wiseman also. He just worked over a Vanguard action, put one of his barrels on it along with a Hogue stock. That is his custom built on that action. He does great work and I paid for that work.
Never heard of Mr. Echols but I am sure he builds a fine rifle. My Remington actions have all been worked on before the build. Sure am glad there are folks out there that can pay that much for a rifle. I sure can't.

The whole custom vs semi is dumb,

So all the custom rifles are custom because they have semi- custom actions? Aka remington cloned and twicked actions?

Seen, and cycled plenty of "custom actions", from certain makers, I wouldn't take if they were free. Tolerances that are way too tight, and not near enough clearance between bolt and action. That has no business being taken into the field and getting dirty.

All of mine are considered custom to me because they are built to my specs using actions that have been worked on. I just know that some people don't consider them full 'customs' because of what action is used, and I am not one of those.

Personally I don't call it a full custom unless I built the action. Everything else I do is semi-custom. But, I'm hardcore like that. The words "custom" and "gunmaker" are thrown around too much.

I have never understood the whole semi-custom thing. To me, if you are tearing down a rifle and having it rebuilt exactly to your specs, then it is a custom. Doesn't matter what action is being used. Guess I am just old school.

Probably because most don't have it built to their specs.

Ill probably never own what some would call a Full Custom because the only reason I'm looking to custom is accuracy and for the most part I don't believe a full custom will shoot any more accurately than a properly bedded savage/Remington/tika/wby/etc. action with a high quality aftermarket barrel and high quality ammo. Fluting and paint doesn't interest me, I don't care for any bottom metal or magazine other than what came on the gun I bought and to me goofy bolt knobs etc are for aesthetics and I don't like them. Pretty much as custom as I care to get is my savage with a pre-fit barrel from a reputable maker and I can understand why some would balk at calling it a custom and why you would differentiate it from a run of the mill savage.

The whole custom/semi-custom discussion comes up from time to time on here. If like TDK said he builds the whole gun for a customer including action that no doubt a full custom.

Screw a barrel and bed the factory stock or an aftermarket stock on a rifle has no where near the work involved and "customization" as a custom like TDK does.

Good Semi custom jobs IMO have a smoother action that is square to the barrel, the action worked over so it is smooth and locking lugs mate in their recesses with full lug contact. The barrel is concentric and mated to the receiver as perfectly as possible for a full concentric mating.

I have one that is as custom as I will ever own, it is a mishmash of parts to an extent that I wish I could find and talk to the builder. The action is a combination of a Mauser and 1903 that has a section in the middle removed so it is the right length for a 44Mag. It has a 16.25 inch McGowen barrel with Williams sights and full length walnut stock and uses Remington 788 44Mag magazines. Serial number on that rifle is R-001. it wasn't built for me but I figure the action was piece parted together from action parts the Smith had from other guns in the past, at one time actions fro long Weatherby and H&H cartridges were not plentiful and they would take two Springfield or Mauser actions to make one action with the length to handle the longer cartridges figure mine was made from a couple of those left over action pieces. Accuracy wise it shoots about 1.5MOA which is fine for a 44mag and the ranges I use it at.

I agree. Whether an extensively worked-over factory action qualifies as a “custom” is an interesting debate I suppose.

But plumbing together disparate components and doing a little file work along the way does not make one a “custom” riflemaker, or the result a “custom” rifle.

Here's my thought on factory vs semi-custom vs full custom. Now, this is all with tuned ammo, or ammo dialed into the rifle. And how I measure accuracy is not one 3 shot group. It is multiple groups at various ranges and seeing the consistency over all these groups.

Factory rifles can be made to shoot well. Running tuned ammo, the rifle will gain consistency from tight tolerances of the ammo. This will certainly improve the accuracy of a factory rifle. But the weak link is often the lack of a bedded action, the barrel not free floated, mass produced barrels, and heavy triggers. Most of the rifles I complete a load work up on are factory rifles, that may have had a few things modified. I have done many of them. Most will shoot about 3/4 to 1 moa fairly easily. Some will shoot 1/2 moa, but not generally. The main problem I see with factory rifles are fliers. Often times there will be some rounds that just don't go where you told it to.

Semi-custom rifles will be a step above the factory rifles. Replacing the barrel on a factory rifle should increase the consistency and improve the accuracy. Generally you can free float the barrel and work on the trigger some. These will always improve your results. But, the action is still a factory action will loose tolerances in the action. I built my PBR (parts build rifle) in Rem 700 and screwed a big fat 308 Win barrel on a $360 factory Rem 700 ADL. I put it in my old Manners T3 stock (previously bedded) with a pic rail and Nightforce scope on it. It shoots about 1/2 moa consistently. The weal link in that rifle is the factory action and the previous bedding (for a different Surgeon action). It shoots good, but does not shoot near as good as my full custom Surgeon.

A full custom build to me is a custom action (Surgeon, Defiance, Big Horn, Stiller, etc) with a custom barrel and the stock bedded and fit to the action. The stock needs to be very firm (not flimsy like some of the Hogue rubber stocks are) with proper bedding and barrel free floating. I have a Surgeon 591 action in a Rock Solid Stock with a big Bartlein barrel at 23" in 6.5x47L. That set up is the most accurate rifle I own. It's one hole at 100 yards, and shoots very tight at distance. It is a heavy rifle, about 14-16 lbs. It's a very shootable rifle and easy to control.

But, IMO, the many factory rifles I have played with shoot decent. But they will not shoot near as good as a custom can.

And a big factor in accuracy is how thick the barrel is. You can not take a featherweight or sporter weight barrel chambered in a magnum round with 80+ grains of powder and expect it to be a target rifle and maintain consistency for 20 shots. It just won't do it. The barrel will heat up and start to walk around.

Tacops is a $5k+ rifle build on a Remington action with 1/4 MOA accuracy.

I'm not saying no. But do you know how many rifles I have shot that I would say are truly 1/4 moa accurate? I could count them on one hand. 1/4 moa is a rarity, period. Yes, 1/2 and 1/3 moa is pretty achievable. But 1/4 moa is an inaccurate guarantee for ALL rifles from a smith. There's WAY too many variables of parts and pieces that a smith will rely on. Some barrels do offer crazy accuracy, but to put a 1/4 moa, sorry, I'm not buying it.

I just looked at their site, and they build their rifles on a trued factory Rem 700 action. It's not even a full custom, it's a semi-custom. No way 1/4 moa! The tolerances in the Rem 700 action are not tight enough to allow it!

Sounds like a really neat rifle. Would you mind posting a picture or two?

Next time I dig it out of the safe I will post some pics. Have posted pics in the past but they are on Photobucket

Truly, how important is the action? Once the bullet is in the chamber my money is on the ammo the barrel and human error.

As long as the action is bedded in the stock good, the barrel/action connection is truly inline and the lugs and action mating surfaces are making full even contact the action really doesn't matter for accuracy. Trick is getting all those on a factory mass produced action, stock and barrel. Or that is my

Generally, my opinion as well.

^^^^^ This is my view of things exactly.



Anyone who buys one is an idiot. A $5,000 Remington

To rc and kmon1 - if you're looking for true anal type accuracy your looking at lock up times, pin fall, action timing, [censored] on close, spring weights on firing pins, trigger engagement...there is a whole lot more to the accuracy game than making sure lugs and bolt/barrel/action mating. I learn something new it seems every week on that. I wish I knew more about all that stuff I listed above.

Judd, I know some of that but not that anal on accuracy. Small groups are like golf scores in a way. Doesn't take much work to go from 110 to 100, but more work to get from 100 to 90 and even more to get from 90 to 80 and even more than all of that combined to get from 80 to 70. The tighter the goal the more work is involved to get there. I don't shoot competition though did a little around 30 years ago. As long as I am under MOA with some rifles I am happy and with some under half MOA depends on the gun. That is good enough for me a boggie golfer.

A friend in College recommended a Remington 788 to me and glad he did. I shot his BR rifle on a couple occasions and it was built on a 788 action with the canjar trigger, my best 5 shot group ever was shot with it .15 center to center with his 222 Remington that was in I think 83.

Trying to trim that last thirty or forty thousandths of an inch off your groups gets expensive and tricky, doesn't it?

I have a 788 in .222 that will average an honest 0.4" for five shots, and maybe even better. I think one like it can be had for $400 to $500. All I want is a 0.3" improvement, but I sure can't afford it. I'll just shoot it like it is.

It's huge. Factory rifles have much loose tolerances than some of the custom actions do. The tighter tolerances mean less parts have less room to move around. Rem 700 has a pinned recoil lug that is fairly thin that can move around. The bolt lugs do not lock up as tight and can have some play in it.

Take a Surgeon 591 action. It has 3 MAJOR factors that greatly improve accuracy over standard actions.

1- The barrel tenons where the barrel screws into the action is 33% longer. There's more barrel threading into the action for more support
2- The top picatiny rail of the action is part of the action. The rail adds stiffness to the entire action. It's not bolted on with 4 screws like a Rem 700 is
3- The recoil lug is solid and built into action, not pinned like the Rem 700. And the recoil lug is much thicker than the Rem 700

Add all this up, and you have one bad [censored] action!

Cannibalized allot of 788 actions back in the 70's, they were the go to action for Bench Rest at the time.

I might could be talked out of a Canjar trigger. Wonder if that would help

Sounds intriguing. I might wanna explore the idea.

Well worth it, only real weakness on a 788 is the trigger and even they weren't that bad. I've seen stock 788's shoot some outstanding groups. Bed it and put a good trigger in it and you'll have a rifle that was out shooting the higher end rifles of it's time. That might have been their downfall since more attention was paid to them than the 700's.

Had a guy that worked for Remington in the 70s and early 90s that said that was the main downfall of the 788 it would out of the box outshoot their higher end guns. I have 4 of them now have had a few others in 243 but sold or traded them away and gave one away. That one went to a Nephew that killed a deer with it at Thanksgiving and got it for Christmas. Didn't know he was hunting with what would soon be his first deer rifle.

the 4 I have are in 223, 30-30, 44Mag and 7mm08 so 3 of the most rare calibers it was made in.

Guys, you’re making fun of TacOps, but it’s the real deal. Please do a search. More than 400 swat and LE agencies are using that gun.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tango_51

RR and kmon...you're dead on, that last little bit is expensive both from a cost and knowledge. I love it.

The ole 222 used to be king until the ppc drove it off the podium. Crazy how things work, now they talk about the 30br...it hasn't completely dethroned the ppc yet but it might happen?

Got a Timney in the .222/788 now. Nice trigger, but not perfect.

I swapped into a 788 in .223 a few days ago that someone worked over the original trigger, giving it a real clean break but still too heavy---one the order of about four pounds or more. When I took it down and cleaned it up it had globs of some kind of grease or oil that had gone solid to the point of resembling lube for cast bullets, plus an undersized pin wrapped in a bit of duct tape was being used for the sear pivot (I kid thee not!). I replaced the sear pivot and worked the engagement angle ever, ever so slightly, and with a wide trigger shoe installed you'd thing you're pulling a Jewell. Hopefully I'll get to shoot it in a couple of weeks. I am expecting great things of this one.

That's about par...our government is the idiot

Have you ever wondered what might happen if someone revisited the lowly .222 to compete with, using present-day machining, barrels, actions, components, and all the rest?

Haven't though about it but with todays machining tolerances and components I bet it might raise some eyebrows at a match.

I didn't say it wouldn't shoot good. Yes, it's a real deal rifle (whatever that means)? I'm saying that it's not a 1/4 moa rifle! I'm not making fun of anyone. A claim of 1/4 moa accuracy guarantee was made, and I'm refuting that claim. I am sure it is a great rifle and can easily shoot sub moa, and most likely shoot 1/2 moa. My Rem 700 parts build with a high end barrel and some work done to it shoots about 1/2. But it's not a 1/4 moa rifle. There's a HUGE difference between the two claims. That's all.

I bet a good shooter would be successful with one. My motto is a good shooter is a good shooter and a good barrel is a good barrel....put them together and it's magical.

I don't shoot short range benchrest. If I had my wish I don't think I'd ever shot less than 400y but I do shoot some 250 and 300y events every season.

with todays "off the shelf" "semi customs" the extra $4,000 you will spend on a FULL BLOWN custom will get you about half inch group better accuracy. Don't get me wrong, I own and have owned a few FULL BLOWN customs and , well my $1500 semi will get me .5-.75 groups pretty easy. My Full blown gets me .25 +/- if I do my part.

I was toying with another full blown, but was looking at over $6,000, without optics. Titanium action, carbon fiber barrel, Mickey stock, Jewell, yada. Again you can pay less, going with a trued Remington or Tikka but.....

I just bought a new truck and am spending my rifle money on truck "stuff", SO , I'm going to re-scope my semi custom and get on with it.

Hey Buzz!! (good to see you back!!)

But, the difference in the full customs will be generally more noticed out at further distances. Groups open up at further ranges. Groups stay tighter with the customs, no doubt. I may shoot a few groups at 6 or 800 yards sometime to show the difference. It is there.

You are so right. When I re-scope I will see if JG will have me out to see.

You should shoot one of your tikka semi custom builds along side the full custom too for comparison sake. Don't you advertise the Tikkas to 1/2 moa? If 1/4 MOA is too small to guarantee then I cant see there being a huge difference.

That's a great idea! I'll need a better scope and new rings/bases for the Tikka, which I don't have.

I’ve got one full custom. Just days old now and the money was well spent as initial development printed .155 @ 100yds trying just one bullet/powder combo.

Chad, why not shoot the Custom, then move the scope to the Tikka. I would think using the same scope would give you the most accurate comparison. P_102

Bill Weiseman
Jon Trammel
Kevin Weaver
Robert Kleinguther (deceased)
Big Dave @ Elkcastle
Richard Futch

I might be able to help. I have some DNZ Game Reaper mount/rings and either a SWFA 3-9 or 10X scope you could use. The mount is 0 moa but should be okay out to 800, I think. Just let me know if interested in borrowing them.

You can just borrow mine Chad, you can pull the scope and put yours on for better control sample. My semi-custom is built pretty much to same specs as yours except mine has a chassis instead of stock.

Ok!!

Futch is out of business. He sold most of his stuff several years ago.

I believe he bushes reciever/bolt and tightens it up over just a trued 700. His reputation is pretty solid. I would think if it wasn't a performer his guarantee would likely already be challenged.

Yes he has macular degeneration.........

Yup took over a year to get my rifle from him. He would only work when he felt comfortable with his vision.

APR is a top notch group of guys!

you may know ammo, but rifles........not so much.

Does your Tac Ops rifle you have shoot 1/4 moa? I'm all ears if it does.

i dont have, and have never had a tacops rifle, BUT their reputation speaks for itself. i have however, built a couple hundred custom and semi custom rifles and some of the things you say are simply not true IN MY OPINION. firstly, you mention specs and tolerances as being the deciding factor in accuracy and consistency between a true custom and a semi custom. your "custom" built on a surgeon is 1/4moa because of said tolerances? well, i have measured surgeons than were as much as .012 out of square between the bolt raceway and receiver face. how many guys bother to measure a $1400 action to make sure its "right"? not many! most would assume they are perfect for that amount of money. secondly, you said that a semi custom can be as accurate and 100yds but that it would not carry that accuracy to distance. how do you figure that? once the bullet has left the barrel the rifle has no more effect on the accuracy. could we agree on that? 2 TRUE 1/4moa rifles should shoot equally well at distance. lastly, unless you have taken the same barrel and fit it to two different receivers, everything else is just speculation! you dont get a perfect barrel from every manufacturer every time. that is a fact. thats why tony boyer would go through dozens of shilens to cherry pick a couple. i choose to build a rifle on a trued remington with a custom fitted bolt because i KNOW everything is right when i am done and it just burns my [censored] to pay so much money for perfection and not always get it with a custom action. i dont feel like i should have to measure a damn thing for that kind of money, but knowing what i know now, only a fool wouldnt!!! im thinking the tikka will be my next receiver of choice to work with now.

So you are saying Tac Ops has a reputation for 1/4 moa accuracy? Yes, they have a great reputation, sure. They build a good gun. But you're not following what I'm saying. A claim was made by someone on this thread that their rifles are 1/4 moa guarantee, with a factory Rem 700 receiver. I have built MANY custom rifles for customers and dialed them in with custom ammo. 1/2 moa is pretty easy to achieve with a custom. Even 1/3 moa is doable (1" at 300 yards). But that next step up to 1/4 moa accuracy is a huge jump. The stars and moon have to align just right for consistent 1/4 moa accuracy. I have shot maybe 10 rifles or less that I would consider 1/4 moa rifles. It doesn't happen very often. So a claim of 1/4 moa guarantee for all rifles on a factory action is BS, period!

i follow exactly what you say, but evidently what you say and what you mean are two different things. you SAY what keeps a tacops, or any other rifle from being a 1/4 moa shooter is the lack of a custom receiver. i refuted why a custom receiver isnt the factor you propose it is, but you never addressed that. i would figure in these MANY rifles you have built you would have discovered that for yourself! how many of these custom receivers have you measured for "runout"?

.

Tac ops are 700's but that's the extent of them being factory. A worked over 700 can be just as accurate as a custom it just takes tons of work/money. I've seen br guns built of remmy actions 700/788/600 and they shot as good as the stolle pandas next to them. If the lugs are true/squared and the guy chambering knows a thing or two it'll be accurate. A stock rifle/action I agree the odds of it being 1/4moa is slim and none. Heck even custom actions need to be checked just in case as they aren't perfect.

Ok, so all Tac Ops rifles are 1/4 moa shooters then? Yes or no?

Not much experience here, just practical.

I don't see how a $1,000 action is more accurate then a worked over 700. Maybe better extraction and more robust.

Also, how can one 1/4 MOA rifle be more accurate then another at distance?

It's like some saying a 338 or Cheytac aren't accurate at 100 yards but magically curve in at distance?

I believe it was discussed on here also that other than outside factors affecting the bullet in flight an MOA round at 100 would stay moa until its flight was disrupted by some outside force, no?

I don't believe it either but that is their claim on their website.....

I don't see how it could be otherwise. But, maybe slight bullet instability only reflects itself downrange in some rifles?

If it isn’t then why wouldn’t you send it back via thier guarantee?

i cant say.....can you? what if they refuse to let one out the door that doesnt meet their criteria? what if they choose to spin a new barrel on one until it is? THE POINT IS, that you stated several things that simply arent true and now you refuse to address that. it damn sure isnt the factory receiver keeping one from being 1/4 moa if they arent!

You sure about that? What that means is you're saying the tolerances and truing to the barrel are the only things that are important from an accuracy standpoint. Action timing, firing pin fall, trigger engagement, etc are all non-issues uh?

I learn something new on this forum everyday, thanks!

Oh and for what it's worth...I'll still say anyone who pays over 2500 for a Remington action semi custom should have their head examined.

define what "action timing", "firing pin fall", and "trigger engagement" mean to you and i will explain why they are, or arent a deciding factor. "action timing" to me refers to the primary extraction between the bolt and receiver body. it has a great effect on how the action feels when you cycle it but no effect on acccuracy. "firing pin fall" to me is lock time. it certainly can have an effect on accuracy, but a remington 700 and its clones have basically the same lock times so it too isnt a deciding factor between custom and worked over factory. i habe no idea what you mean by "trigger engagement" but a good trigger is good no matter what its pinned to!

This x2. There is no need to build off a 700 unless you already own one. At the cost of an action (no more than 350) plus trueing one could be into one of the cheaper aftermarket actions.

Are the cheaper after market actions perfect?

Typically they are good to go but I would still check no matter the action. The cheaper customs typically have pinned recoil lugs and scope bases where higher end one's are all integral.

so how many guys send their $1000 action and barrel out for fitting and tell the smith to check it and true it for a couple hundred bucks if its not perfect? NOT MANY. when you build a rifle do you check every receiver and tell a customer you will have to charge him a fee to true up his custom receiver because it isnt perfect? NOT LIKELY. for what it costs to have a factory remington worked over properly, i wouldnt bother with the expense if i didnt do it myself. however, the claim was that a factory receiver cant be as accurate as a custom. that simply isnt true! having spent some time shooting BR around every receiver you can imagine, i have seen factory receivers that shot as well as ANYTHING.

If my custom isn't true it goes straight back to the manufacturer seeing as I paid for a trued action. No sense in it not to be checked anything built by man is subject to qc and it's a one and done step that doesn't cost much time. After that just spin barrels up and run. Only reason it would ever be off after is if someone didn't use the proper action wrench when removing from a barrel.

how many people do you think actually measure them?

I want to know the measurable gain in accuracy when going from a pinned recoil lug to a integral one... same for scope base. Either it moves or it doesn't.

Couldn't say. I know mine get checked though.

Accuracy on the lug none but integral makes things easier.

As far as rails go I've seen them come loose in field use.

Someone has obviously never pulled a barrel off and put one on a non pinned or integrated recoil lug. Talk about a PIA!!!! I won't ever do another one...it'll be pinned or I ain't putting it back together

FWIW - if your gunsmith isn't checking new actions...it's time to find another gunsmith.

I wonder how many people just assume their gunsmith checks actions.

a recoil lug alignment tool takes seconds to install. how do you know your gunsmith is measuring your receivers, and what is he measuring? you also skirted around your last post that i responded to involving "timing" and "firing pin drop"!

i actually disagree on the lug. an integral lug is one of the things i really appreciate on a custom receiver. i use surface ground factory lugs or custom lugs. they are normally within .0002 but it is a place to "stack tolerances". meaning, however far from "perfect" your lug is will be amplified when it isnt integral and is sandwiched between the barrel and receiver. make sense? also, some of the most precise rifles in the world use seperate scope bases. they can be as good as integral from an accuracy standpoint but probably not as "rugged".

If your going to the trouble of pulling the tube there's no sense in not using a ground lug. Kinda a given I figured. Rugged and precise would be the most ideal in my opinion on a rail. I've seen them come loose even pinned and lock tite on the screws. Probably more due to the abuse leading up to then but less of a liability the better.

you are right, no sense in not using a ground lug. you are still stacking tolerances.

It happened on my 7 Rem Mag in September. When it does, "the gun don't shoot". That rail had been Locktited on, and torqued 5 years prior. A 180 gr coming out at 3000 doesn't bother me on recoil, but I guess it bothered the action and rail.

While chasing accuracy and group size, don't forget about reliability if the gun is meant to be used anywhere other than on a range.

It takes seconds to install if you have one lying around.

You're right, I did. I'm not interested in writing a big long explanation of those things especially for you just to tell me I'm wrong. You've been very clear you know all about this stuff and the rest of us are stupid.

I will answer the simple short stuff...I know he measures them because we discuss it and have conversations about it.

since you went there.......its clear to me that you dont know your A$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to the actual mechanics of a rifle. but, keep on giving all the free advice people can afford to pay for. let me be clear to you. the advice i give is from building a lot of rifles on most any platform you can imagine NOT from talking about it on the internet. please feel free to refute anything i have said IF you can articulate why you think it isnt so.
......im not holding my breath!

very valid point! the most accurate rifle in the world would be all but useless in a hunting situation.

WOW all that knowledge and class too. You're asking me to teach you about pin fall then telling me how stupid I am.

Boy, it's like I have a crystal ball. Seen one internet genius, seen them all.

yeah, teach me all about "pin fall". every time you post, you just reinforce what i have said. by the way, wasnt it you who called someone out for "obviously" not having ever done something beause they evidently didn't have the issues with it that you did? listen, you can get butt hurt because i brought up some things you think you know but actually dont........or, feel free to substantiate what you have refused to because you dont want to type a "long and drawn out" explanation. im trying to help people understand what makes the most difference in their rifles and you are just muddying up the waters with speculation and fallacy. go ahead and enlighten me......i will try to keep up.

Chuck, I don't know a single reputable gunsmith that would come onto a site and belittle others. There are many people here that are very knowledgeable, Judd included. The reputable and knowledgeable people on this site share information, trade ideas and generally try to help others....it seems as though you've come here to beat your chest.....if not, well, you have no people skills whatsoever.

P_102

beat my chest? i have shared information as i know it to be. if you are so thinned skinned to not be able to accept when you are wrong, that is not my problem. i am open minded and have stated all along that i am more than willing to look at INFORMATION presented in a manner that would contradict what i know from experience, but it hasnt been provided. i never claimed to be a "people person" and thankfully i dont make a living dealing with the public or i would starve. i also never claimed to be a "reputable gunsmith" though i have built a lot of rifles and learned a thing or two along the way. how about information only and not BS???

How does one "build" a few hundred rifles and not be a gunsmith? How does that work?

not sure how "one" did it, but i bought a lathe, mill, and thousands of dollars of tooling and learned how to use it. then i "built" hunting, varmint, match, pretty, ugly, good, bad, light, heavy, short, long, and "everything in between" rifles until my hearts content. never have dabbled in those bespoke rifles though. children, brothers, father, in-laws, neices, nephews, future grandkids, and friends likely have rifles to their hearts content as well. i guess........thats how that "works"!
in all fairness, i said a couple NOT a few. "one" has never actually counted but does have a couple of BOXES of barrel stubs to commemorate "ones" adventures. if this consisted of 120 or 201 said adventures, would it make a difference? i guess this "one" has just enough experience to separate the wheat from the chaff.
do you have evidence or experience to dispute anything i have said regarding factors to accuracy? i did not intend to start a PI$$ING match, but there is misinformation being conveyed here to the unsuspecting by some who are held in high regard for their "knowledge" on the subject matter. im just an old farm hick so my opinion doesnt matter, but be careful who you choose to "follow"! me, i make my own path.........

Txlonghorn, it's too bad your thread turned into what it has become. I'm not looking to have built a "custom" but was interested to read what folks had to say as that is how I learn. Semi-custom is plenty good for me. If you do end up using Alamo, please let me know how that goes. I'm considering them to work on mine here shortly. Now, if we can salvage this thread,

They may be a bit contentious, but these are the types of threads where you do learn things.

x2

That is a fact. An astute fella might have to do some separating of the wheat from the chaff but there is good information in this thread, however contentious the thread itself might be.

I'm not going to wade into the custom vs a properly trued up R-700 debate because I think there are way too many variables in it to make a whole lot of absolute statements. The devil is in the details so to speak. I do think the custom actions are great, and hopefully someday I can have one or two to call my own. For now though I have to struggle along with my old trued up Remmy's. I'm probably not a good enough shooter to really tell the difference anyways.

However, in the interest of furthering lively debate , I am pretty sure that at one time (and it may still be true), that the smallest 100 yard, 5-shot group ever shot in a sanctioned benchrest match was shot by Mike Walker with a trued up R-700. If I recall correctly (and that is a big if), I think it was something like .019"? I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. And yes, I am quite aware that one record group does not make a rule. As noted above, I am just being a contrary old fart.

I used to shoot benchrest, 6PPC and 22PPC

shooting .1 - .2" groups are the norm

I did shoot a 0" group with a Ruger No. 1. in 22 PPC


These things are important
good free floated heavy barrel, good bedding, good trigger and superb load development (brass, bullet, primer etc ... )
+ calm shooter with excellent breath and trigger control

I have not found the action to be 'that critical'

I do have several custom guns upwards of 10K - more for quality of finish & parts than some precision guarantee

You don't need a fully custom rifle to shoot well
You need to spend more time with load development and practice

I used to shoot xxxx rds a week , every week for 6 years and have observed a few things:

case and bullet have the most impact (easily noticeable )

^^^^^ This is what I would have thought as a non-expert. Whenever folks start talking in absolutes on just about any subject it makes me very leery of whoever is doing the talking and/or their agenda. It happens a lot on here.

A true expert knows better than to talk in absolutes - but can back up what they have to say with facts and understandable explanations.

In 30 years of reloading and shooting I have shot exactly 1 group in the 0's. And that was with a Savage 110 and a Shilen barrel in 220 Swift. That morning I shot that group, and another in the low 1's, everything must have just been lined up that day. Normally that rifle shot in the 3's and low 4's.

If I'm not mistaken, the record 100 yard 5-shot group was shot five or six years ago by Mike Stinnett and it measured 0.09 inch.

Or maybe it was 0.009 inch. I'll look it up.

Ok, I figured Mike's had been beaten at some point. It stood for a pretty long time though I think.

It was 0.0077 inch.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013...ith-0077-group/

Cool information. My memory was fuzzy on Mike Walker so I googled it and this is what I was remembering I guess.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/legends-of-benchrest-remingtons-mike-walker/

Hint.

Thanks. Yeah I was really looking at information about good custom/ semi custom builders in Texas. Not half of this other nonsense.


"Txlonghorn, it's too bad your thread turned into what it has become. I'm not looking to have built a "custom" but was interested to read what folks had to say as that is how I learn. Semi-custom is plenty good for me. If you do end up using Alamo, please let me know how that goes. I'm considering them to work on mine here shortly. Now, if we can salvage this thread, back"

Scott Weichel 972-404-6703

Honestly he’s the only rifle builder I’ve ever used but I was very pleased with his work. Even if he is a dang yankee.

Tikka action, obermyer barrel, and manners stock. Yes, semi custom. Best group was 1.5” at 600 yards. Managed .2 at 100 but I didn’t shoot it there often enough to say consistently.

sounds like a heck of a rifle! thats one barrel blank i have never used.

TLH,

Jon Beanland in Oklahoma does consistently high quality work at a fair price with quick turnaround once all of the parts are in hand.

Dave Tooley does top tier work too.

Pete Pieper in Hempstead has an excellent reputation, but I have not used a rifle built by him, so cannot say from personal experience.

There are quite a few other great smiths here in Texas.

I just took possession of mine last week that I had West Texas Ordnance put together. Extremely happy with the work and they’re easy to talk to

For a hunter like me that doesn't eat paper, a solid factory rifle works well with good optics and the right ammo to get me at somewhere less than 1.0 MOA. Now I need to get a .50 BMG so that I only need 5 or 6 MOA accuracy like K Warren.

Glad to hear that, am thinking about using them for a re-barrel.

Can’t go wrong. Clayton seemed to make time to talk even if it was through Facebook messages after hours. Came across as someone who just wants happy customers but also builds a damn fine rifle

Obermeyer? Never used it? But you want to stomp around peeing on everything like a new bull in a pasture. And talk down anyone that doesn't agree with you. Yeah, you're the guy people should pay attention to.

D.B. status confirmed.

AGAIN, no factual information whatsoever, just unsubstantiated BULL$HIT. hey bigboy, have you used EVERY barrel blank manufacturer? if you say yes, you are a FKN LIAR! everyone has their favorites.

Wow

Is busheler back? Hint...grin...

Obermeyer has been building them probably longer than any other cut rifled brand. There's a fact if you have the brain power to understand it. Do some reasearch, Mr.Know-it-all D.B., especially before you come on here and insult some of my friends.

Nope, but I bet CharlesB is.

Another D.B. from a previous time.

I liked his style. Too bad the butthurt he instilled was too much for some on here.

You mean like the Moderators?

Genius statement.

Yeah sure, whoever.

Are you calling my statement unsubstantiated BS? Let’s start by answering that and we can go from there.

Pretty sure he was not addressing you.

I had WTO do a rebarrel for me. He seems like a good guy, and his work was great. I’d use him again.

why would i complement your rifle and then do that? i wasnt addressing you with that statement at all. there are certain THF "gods" here that would like to question my statements but never provide ANY factual evidence or experience to do it. i am addressing them. i provided helpful information early on in this thread that refuted what said "gods" had previously stated. instead of helping us all learn by providing some evidence as to why i was wrong, they just try to "call me out" by any means. i have "been there, done that" and have helpful information. just so happens that if it contradicts what the so called "experts" here think, its wrong. i dont care what any them think about me personally, but you all should be very cautious as to what you take as "fact".

i probably know more of the Obermeyer history than you do DIP$HIT. why is it ok that you havnt used all manufacturers blanks, but that discredits me? if you have some ideas we can actually debate, lets get after it. otherwise, i will leave you to blow smoke up the unsuspecting A$$ES with all of your "friends"!

To the OP. Alamo is good to go. They've built me a rifle (7-08), my dad two rifles (both 6.5 CM) , his buddy one (6.5 CM), and my buddy is having a 6.5 CM built right now. They all shoot extremely well, and both mine and my dad's are blueprinted 700's. The folks at Alamo were all pleasant to deal with, and what I was told as far as guarantee is, "If you're not happy, we're not happy." If something isn't right, they'll make it right.

The groups below are my initial load development in my 7-08. Three shot groups at 100 yds, 0.2 gr increments in powder charge between each group.



This is 10 shots out of my dad's 6.5 CM at 100 yds. The one shot center dot is cold bore, followed by the next nine.

Thank you for the compliment then. Just wanted to clarify. Didn’t particularly want in the pissing match.

I already knew that the action is down on the list of factors affecting accuracy and that rifle accuracy is not necessarily a linear relationship to $$ spent on an action. (Two myths.)

I’m still waiting to learn if/why 1/4 MOA groups may “open up” to larger MOA groups downrange.

I'm confused, too. MOA is an angular measurement. The bullet, once it leaves the barrel, stays on that path until acted upon by an outside force. Those forces should not be biased based on the rifle from which the bullet was shot.

Although not related to this discussion bullet stability could cause groups to open up. But that is more of a function of picking the appropriate bullet for a cartridge and barrel

The only possible explanation is that there can exist some minute bullet instability at 100 yards that does not show up until further downrange.
I’m just not knowledgeable enough to know if that’s actually a real phenomenon or not.

Velocity dispersion won't show at 100 but will at range. There are some slight harmonics as well. This is why most shoot groups at both 100 and farther or choose to do ladder tests at 300 or so.

NP,

as to your last question, there are a few possibilities.

Most common with longer bullets is it no longer stable due to inadequate twist rate.

Next, bullet instability can due to bullet quality of construction such that it is not perfectly concentric in weight distribution - out of balance like a car tire that begins to vibrate due to the weight not being perfectly concentric in distribution. Adding wheel weights balances the tire and wheel. Obviously that is not an option on a bullet. This issue of quality of construction is one reason the monometals often produce better accuracy than say a Partition. Consider the challenge of forming a core and jacket with extremely low tolerances, and the inserting the core with perfect alignment. The best consistency and concentricity is easiest to attain with lathe turned monometals, but the cost of production is notably higher.

Wind is a huge factor. Some bullets handle the wind better or worse than others.

I helped a hunter practice and prepare for a mule deer hunt. He had a beautiful custom built rifle with a S&B scope and custom loaded ammo. It shot well within 1 MOA at 100, 200, 300, and 400. At 500, the bullets went all over the place. Groups were 2 feet or more in size with some going off the paper. Why it was happening is unknown. But from the testing and practice, we learned that 400 yards was the hard limit for that combination.

That experience really demonstrated to me why it is important to stick to distances at which the combination has been proven to be reliable.

Another potential source of issue is the bullet deforming while in flight. Hornady determined the plastic they were using for tips was melting at 600 yards. So they changed the type of plastic used.

At longer distances, the bullet going transonic, i.e. slowing down and dropping below the sound barrier, causes instability.

Others may know of some other reasons, but those are a few possibilities.

Wow, that’s crazy on that “400 and under” rifle!

My first dabbling in longer range shooting was a .308 Shooting the 168gr Matchking. 500 600 700 no problem then once I passed there I was all over the place. I initially thought I just sucked at wind doping (which was true) but that wasn’t the issue. As I investigated further I found two different references on not usuing that particular bullet at distances past 600.
Switched to the 175 and what a difference easy to hit steel at 1000. Shortly after that I was at Tiger Valley shooting and most were shooting .308 and once we got to 800 the guys shooting the 168’s which was everyone except me they kept hitting the wooden frame so the RO stopped all of us and we moved over to steel targets so they wouldn’t tear up the target standers.

And I understand all of those factors, but they deal with ammo quality, bullet construction, etc. I don't see anything that deals with the rifle.

Still not sure how a 1/2 MOA custom outdoors a 1/2 MOA non-custom at distance???

I seriously doubt he will be able to explain this. If so he will break the internet.

me too.

it doesn't

As much as I love and respect Chad and Judd, I just don't agree with them on this. I own, and have had tons of mass produced "plain vannila" actions on my range, using the highest quality barrels, threaded and chambered by a quality gunsmith, and they've made thousands of very precise shots, repeatedly. I've shot a mile, repeatedly with "plain vanilla" actions.

As far as rifle parts go, the barrel rules supreme, IMO.

Barrel, followed closely by trigger, IME.

I agree

maybe a good trigger to complete the package

Trigger has no effect on accuracy of the gun, however it does make it more shootable and allows the operator to be more precise.

My take as well.

The worse the trigger is, the better, and more experienced the shooter has to be to overcome it.

Therefore it has an effect on accuracy.

i think the argument is that at its core its job is to hit the primer. How it hits the primer does not impact the bullet.

For example if i had a gun in a rest and had a 3lb trigger and a 10lb trigger the outcome should be same.

Practically most people will be impacted by trigger pull, but that is due to the shooters interaction with the gun, not the gun itself

I hear where you're coming from Cleric. Can't disagree totally, but find one BR shooter, or one at Camp Perry with a 10lb trigger pull. There's a reason.

No, if you remove the human error of shooting a rifle it doesn't care if it has a 2lb trigger or a 20lb trigger. Accuracy of the rifle and its shootability are not the same thing.

The trigger also has no effect on how the firing pin hits the primer. Once the trigger allows the sear to release the cocking piece it's done.

Can’t speak for chad, its my guess is what he meant is that there are alot of small things that can impact how well a rifle shoots when shooting at distance, and that a custom action can eliminate a possible issue. Don’t have a dog in the fight, but I’d be surprised if he meant something else.

My point is that you cannot remove the human error, therefore a great trigger is mandatory to precision accuracy. Agree with you on shootability anyway.

I don't disagree with your line of thought, my attempt was to bring up the distinction between the two.

when i have an action set up to true, i can lay a finger on the madrel and see a measurable deflection of material. what i mean to show is the most "insignificant" of forces can and do effect relationships of materials. ANYTHINGthat disturbes the harmonics of your "barrel, bullet, bedding" combo can often does effect accuracy. i dont know it for fact but could see where a poor trigger COULD change those harmonics. however, once the bullet has left the barrel, it doesnt give 2 $hits what it was fired from. how could a rifle itself cause groups to "fall apart" as they get further downrange? ..........cant............
what ALL of this boils down to is that "only accurate riles are interesting". you have to decide what it is you are doing, what criteria you need to meet, and what you are willing to spend to experiment. a 1moa rifle would win a lot of tactical/PRS type matches in the right hands and a 1/4 moa rifle will lose a lot of BR matches in the wrong hands. most of us fall somewhere in between. when you have an honest 1/2 moa rifle go forth and fill an ark or trophy case.

Nothing like some mental masturbation...

......and once again the peanut gallery jumps on board with.........wait for it.........NOTHING!
why dont you make yourself useful and build one those FKN "bespoke" rifles, mount it in a vice and shoot us a series of groups with a 10# trigger and a 1# trigger. be sure to use a obermeyer blank though. lay all of this to rest! "BESPOKE"? are you FKN BRITISH? you are in texas jackwagon:

That doesn't sound like any fun.

I would much rather you explain your statement vs me try to assume your opinion.

instead of cherry picking a portion of a statement, real the whole post dip$hit. i clearly stated it was theory, not fact. i know those are one and the same around here depending on who says it! evidently all the intricate details on those bespoke guns has caused you to go blind.

So like I said, mental masturbation.

Commissioned a double rifle build from scratch last week for $45k. We'll be doing a SLNE back-action hammerless model with underlever. Should be interesting, hopefully my eyes don't fail me.

again, you add NOTHING. you know whats funny? of all the "name me a gunsmith" threads i have seen around here, i have never seen your name mentioned. thats pretty telling. of course, you seem to be far too busy doing NOTHING on the internet to actually do some gun work.