Custom rifle expectations?

What is the expectation of MOA with a custom rifle? Is that MOA guaranteed?

Also other than the smoothness of the bolt, what other improvement over factory rifle that has been customized?

I would expect .5 MOA and yes most do guarantee.
Normally better barrel,better trigger,better stock that is properly bedded which is hit or miss with factory.
Along with choices of barrel length ,barrel weight, fluting style and finish options...
Thus the name Custom!

Yup!

Being able to shoot is the biggest factor. I would want to know my custom gun could do .5" if not better with the right shooter

Is that a five shot MOA or three shot MOA?

It also would depend on what the rifle was built for.
A 458 with iron sights the shooter will not hold 0.5 moa but will be more than good for its intended purpose.
3 shots
5 shots
The first shot is the one that matters.

M

I would expect a "custom" rifle to be better than any stock rifle I've had. Looks, trigger, smoother action, and most of all, group sizes.

That's actually a pretty tall order, as I have owned some pretty good out of the box rifles.

Factory rifles that guarantee 5 shots into an inch are not uncommon these days. I would hope and expect the custom to shoot better most of the time, especially the ones charging $5k plus for a 1/2" guarantee.

I like the overall feel of a custom. I get to pick the McMillan stock of my choosing in my length of pull. I have all triggers set at the same pull weight. I've also grown to like a 23" barrel. Aftermarket bottom metal is allot nicer than factory as well. Fit and finish of a custom is well above that in a factory rifle. It's kind of like buying a spec house vs building your own. I think Cooper, Nosler, MRC, and Law offer a really nice in between option. I would probably lean towards one of those if I was going to do it again.

Best part is a premium barrel. Keeps on shooting 1/2 MOA for a lot of rounds, without cleaning.

That depends on the barrel contour you pick.

Thin means light, means heats up fast, probably won't hold together for more than 3.

Heavier barrel holds up for more shots.

And many makers specify what ammo must be used to get that .5 MOA.

B.S.

If you buy a TRUE , 100% custom, "heavy rifle" $5,000-$6,000. It Better shoot .25 MOA or save $4,000 and get a stock rifle which will shoot .50 .75 all day Like the new Tikka AR/Chassis rifle.

$4,000 extra aint worth it just to shoot steel. unless you are going to compete in Serious Long Range comps, re; PRS, F-Class Open, LR Benchrest. You don't need .25 moa

I've about come to the decision a true "custom" is really not worth the $$ or frustratingly long, stupid, wait times.

Hell, if I ordered a custom today, I would die of old age waiting on a stock to fit ME.

I've been studying ALL these custom and semi customs available "off the shelf" Plus just plain "factory" guns lately. I have or have owned a half dozen or so TRUE customs. Yes, the "quality" fit and finish is MUCH better and you will love it.

BUT



You could save the $3,000 and buy a Nightforce ATACR, Swaro-XI, which will make your rig complete

I tend to agree with all of this. I'd love to have one, but I can't possibly understand how I could justify that level of cost when any number of $700-$1,000 factory rifles will shoot .5MOA with the right handloads.

To each their own though. Just like a $75k bass boat - folks spend their $ how they want to.

A lot like watches some are happy with their G Shock and others prefer a Rolex. Handmade and finer materials cost money but don't necessarily do the job any better. Applies to lots of things

I concur

I assume that skinny barrel would cool faster too though, correct?

Yes they do.

Larger caliber aids in cooling as well.

In a $6000 custom

I expect quality chassis, quality barrel, superb fit, meticulous finish
And 1 MOA guarantee

Like a $30,000 watch, it won't tell time any more accurate
But does show that the owner appreciate fine craftsmanship and quality materials

word up


u and bphillips got it

Thanks for the replies.

You have a real issue with the "gotta have it now" mentality. Guns are not something you need to be dabbling in if you have to have something right now. You have to plan and not be in a hurry or it will never be worth it to you.

You are like me and have guns to shoot. Odds are you aren't going to die tomorrow or this year...build the gun you want and be patient...you've wasted 6 months bitching about not getting parts when you should've ordered them back then and you would almost have them. Gawd I don't want to get old and gumpy

Oh and one last thing...there isn't very many gunsmiths that will guarantee a 250 unless they know they shooter...to many variables and none of them want to spend a bunch of their time proving the rifle's and their loading capabilities far exceed the shooter. Unless they are working with someone they know already realizes that

I shoot and test a lot of factory, semi custom, and full custom rifles. There are some good factory rifles on the market that can shoot sub moa when you feed it a good hand load. Some of the main issues I see with factory rifles is no bedding of the action in a low-end factory stock. Often times the factory stock has lots of movement where the forend bends when a bipod is used, causing shots to go random. The barrel not free floating in the stock also has some issues.

The semi custom rifles will help improve over a standard factory rifle with a good barrel and good smith work, if it's done right. Often times these semi custom rifles fix the bedding and free float issues found on factory guns. And with an upgraded barrel, they have the potential to shoot better. The Tikka builds I have done are some of the best shooting semi-custom builds I have seen, easily 1/2 moa or better. For the money (about $1300-$1400), these are some of the best build options I have seen.

Now, the full customs are great. Most of the time these are put together right with high end components. Full customs generally shoot most factory ammo good. But like I tell customers, if it shoots good now, I'll make it shoot better with a tuned load to the rifle. It's like fine tuning a race car to the track. That's when you get the full potential of the rifle.

As you move up the ladder from a factory rifle to a full custom, generally, you do get better quality (tighter groups) as you move up. If you put up a standard factory rifle to a full custom, the edge should easily go to the full custom with good ammo and a good shooter. And I add in the shooter part, because we all know someone that has high end gear that simply can not shoot to the potential of the rifle and ammo. That does play a big part in there.

I have had major issues with accuracy "guarantees" lately. Some are a freakin' joke, and I've voiced my opinion on some of them. Most good factory rifles with a quality scope and quality rings/bases can shoot moa or better. I have seen some factory rifles that had major issues and simply would not shoot well. I have seen factory rifles get "improvements" done to it, and it made the accuracy/consistency even worse. I have had to apply some deeper thought to some rifles when a customer brings me, what I call a "problem rifle", to work on. They tell me no matter what they shoot it won't shoot well. I tell them I'm not a magic man. If you don't have a good foundation to start from, there will not be a good results in the long term. I have turned away some guns that I knew would be problem guns, unless a lot of work was done to them.

I honestly like seeing gun smiths who do not have an accuracy guarantee. Several I know are like this. And the smith says it depends on who's shooting it and what ammo you are running. I agree.

To followup on Chad's comment, there are four major components to an accurate shot:

1. rifle,

2. ammo,

3. scope including excellent rings and base correctly mounted with a torque wrench, not farmer finger tight,

4. the shooter.

All four play a major role and all have to be in good working order.

There is inordinate attention spent discussing and fretting over the rifle, too little on the scope, and WAY too little on the shooter.

By far the biggest problem for most setups is the shooter.

The saying comes from music, but applies equally to shooting, amateurs practice until they can do it right, pros practice until they cannot do it wrong.

There is a world of difference in those two standards.

Most folks want to buy their way to a great shot.

There are no short cuts, the targets show objective truth.

I just recently started a semi custom after years of telling myself I would never spend that much money on a rifle. Granted, I'm still not to the price point some have talked about, but I've got several rifles that cost 1/3 as much that are legitimate 1/2 MOA rifles day in and day out. For me, I wanted a tool built the way I wanted it that serves a specific purpose. The configuration I chose is not available in a factory rifle. I haven't received the rifle yet, so ask me in a few months if the time and money were truly worth it. I think it will be.

Have to agree with Buzz, manufacturing methods and processes are so much better today that factory rifles can and do shoot sub MOA, even with factory ammo. I think I will have a hard time spending more than a semi custom rifle. To me, I'd spend the extra $3-$4k on quality glass, and practice (ammo).

I agree, but it depends on the rifle mfg. Take Remington. If you asked me to choose between a Remington rifle built in the 1970's or 1980's model rifle next to a new Rem rifle from today, I would take the 70's or 80's model rifle without hesitation!!! I have shot some of the older rifles, and I'm much more impressed with them than I am of today's rifles coming out of Remington. To me, it's a no-brainer.

Judd, Chad, Jeff,

PREACH!

The Tikka rifles, IMO, are the best off the shelf. Even the light weight T3 Lite models shoot good. Santa brought my son a compact Tikka T3 in 308 Win with the 20" barrel. I've put the rifle through it's paces with several different bullets, and it easily shoots sub moa. I'm surprised at how well is does shoot.

And I say this next part biting my tounge. I've seen some Savage rifles shoot VERY well right out of the box. And I am not a Savage fan at all. I can't stand the rifles from the loose bolt feel down to the weird trigger. But you know what- they shoot! And I like rifles that shoot. So, I gotta give props to them.

On the Tikka rifles, I have a few ideas why they shoot so well. When you pull apart the Tikka rifles, you can see all the details of the action. The Tikka action closely resembles a Surgeon 591 action. The Tikka has a built in recoil lug. It's part of the action, where other actions, like a Rem 700 action is pinned or placed between the barrel and action. It's one less loose part on the action. Second, the Tikka action has a solid rail on top of the action, like the Surgeon. This makes the action more stiff. Third, and probably the most important, is the tenon length of the action. The tenon length is the amount of length the barrel screws into the action, or how much barrel threading is screwed into the action. A standard Rem 700 is .850-.885". A Surgeon 591 action has .954" tenon length. The Tikka rifles has a full 1" of tenon length. On the Tikka rifles, the barrel itself screws more into the action to be more solid, align better, and to support the barrel better. Also, the bottom of a Tikka action is flat, where Rem 700 style actions are round. I think this helps the bedding to the stock, even without a bedding job. I think this is why the Tikka actions make such a good semi-custom build platform!

Chad - so true unfortunately with Remington. But... I'd say it's more positive today such as Tikka, Savage, Ruger., etc.. Several rifle mfg.s that are producing fantastic out of the box rifles!

Great post chief!!!

One thing I'll add you pay for on the Surgeon...strength. I've seen what a Tikka looks like on a case head separation, it's not pretty. I wish I had taken a picture of it when I saw it but I didn't. Take the center of the port and split it back to the tang...it was ugly...but the person shooting it didn't get hurt bad (powder burn and bolt shroud to the face) which is why it's designed to come apart in that manner.

^^^ Yes, I have seen that also. Who's Tikka was it? I was in John Trammell's gun shop in Breckenridge, and he had a blown up Tikka like that. The Tikka is a lighter weight action, which would make it less durable.

John Trammel move to Breckinridge??

Judd, you are right in some aspects, like, I should have sent my $200 NAF form in a LONG time ago. now I want a suppressor,

I have found the action, trigger, maybe a barrel online, what is really keeping me from going for it is retirement, a choice I made. So my fun money now may have to go to a new HVAC, Brakes, Plumber to clear my chitters.....slippery slope I walk...

Yeah, he's been there for many years. He used to be in Fort Worth at a rifle mfg there.

Who's the guy in Frisco? Tollway at 121, big azz houses behind the Honda Dealership???

That would have been Dale Trout with Thoroughbred. He's not there now. He bought Stiller Actions, and is now working out of their office in Wylie.

cool gotcha

Yes, Jon has done quite a bit a work for me. Great guy and even better gunsmith.