Free Range day! For the MPBR and the x.x" high at 100 yard shooters!!

I would like to invite 4-8 shooters out to a range in Wolfe City, TX who sight their rifles in by MPBR (maximum point blank range) and/or by X.X" inches high at 100 yards. Call this a scientific study. This isn't a "my rifle is more accurate that yours" thing. What I would like to see is, of the shooters who sight their rifle in by MPBR and/or X.X inches high at 100 yards, what the difference is in the perceived drop vs. the actual drop of their bullets and the point of impact at each distance. I would like to see what the hunter thinks is their hold or bullet drop vs. what the actual bullet drop is at 100, 200 and 300 yards. I would like to have paper at 100, 200 and 300 yards, and I will have a Lab Radar chronograph getting velocity readings on all shots. I will provide the Shoot N C targets as the targets.

Thursday, Nov 3 about 9 am is the date (or lets plan another date), but it needs to be during the week, since we will be hunting on the weekends. Let's do this! Comment below if you can come. Oh, and beer will be consumed after (BYOB, of course).

Pretty cool of you and the fireman, Chad.

Very large target boards covered in white paper, to find misses. Point of aim will be a neon orange 12" circle, size of vitals (or larger by some people's standards) bullet holes will be recorded.

Bring a rifle you hunt with, no limitation on caliber or velocity.

This sounds like lots of fun (shooting always is IMO), but I have to ask (NOT being argumentative here).....

What is your purpose for this event?

1. So an MPBR shooter can be certain of his drops at known distance?
2. For precision shooters to extol the virtues of precision turrets for EXACT POI, as an "I told you so" moment?

Just curious. It's much too far for me to drive anyway.

It's just a scientific study, and in no way is to belittle anyone. There's no point in a Mil or MOA guy shooting in this. And myself and Chad will only shoot if someone wants to see the results of how we do it. If no one asks for it, we'll never fire a round, and won't talk any smack about everyone's ways. If there's a miss, it will be recorded, and made available to the guy that missed. Simple as that.

Sounds great, but MPBR hits at 100,200, and 300 would take about 30 minutes at the local range, wouldn't it? It is a great option though for someone who lives closer to tap into your experience, in the field, which is invaluable.

I'd love to do this guys, but Nov 3rd is a no go for me my boss will be out all week and I have to be here when he isn't in case of computer problems. The next week I could take a day off and come out.

I would like to compare the results of the before predictions of bullet drop and impacts at each distance, and compare the actual results after shooting.

Predictions? Do you honestly see lots of people who just grab some ammo, sight in, then hunt without any verification whatsoever?

All the freakin' time!!!!!!!!!!

I suspect this is what most hunters do.

I wont be making it, yal are a long way of... and I don't use MPBR either.

I think it would be a good idea for chad or Firemanjg to do the shooting with some average jo ammo ex: 130 grain rem corlocks, 150-165 grain 308 etc... factory loads and see if they live up to the theory of MPBR.

Why one of us shoot it?

I sight my 30/30 about an 1.5 inches high at 100. I would never try a 300 yard shot with my 30-30 on a deer, but I'd love to come play! I also just mounted a Nikon BDC scope on my .223. Curious to see how well that works out past 100.

Bring the BDC. I'll record what was correct, and what wasn't.

This pretty well sums up 80% of the Texas "deer hunters" I come across, if not more.

I don't understand the point. Couldn't you two do the same thing with a couple of rifles in a few hours? Sounds like it will be exactly what y'all are claiming it won't be an "we're right, you're wrong" experience.

Unbelievable.

Show up then. I can assure you, it will be friendly.

I'm a probably for that Thursday. I have a new 6.8 I would like to know what it do

What I mean is. If you want scientific results; you should use one rifle and one shooter then apply the different methods.
I'm too far and don't use high at 100 or MPBR. Also, Chad stole from me and we don't get along.

I'm gonna sight on one of my rifle high at 100 just to get a free range day

"Come out and see how wrong you are day!"

I'm not good enough to be around you champions of the gun.

Ok, wait! So, what's the back pedaling here? Is the method of MPBR or X.X high at 100 yards not good enough now?

My point is, most hunters who use the MPBR or X.X high at 100 is for the longer range shots 200 to 300 yards. I'll post more shortly when I have time.

You're doing this in hopes that people will be wrong with their predictions and you'll get to look clever.

I'm not backpedaling, but I'm not going to indulge you all in your sociopath experiment either.

Why all the hate? I must have missed some threads or something I was just wanted to come hang out at the range I don't use either of these methods I sight dead on at 100 all my guns except red dots I sight at 25 yards which is really close at 100 with 5.56 out of a 16" barrel.

Of course it is. Why else would you use it?

As far as your "back pedaling" claim, who are you talking to?

It won't work if Chad and I shoot it. He and I use the reticle to give us holds,even a duplex can be used for some holds. Several people, several posts, use a spot on the target as a hold point. "A little high", "10 inches higher" ect. My brain doesn't work that way.

Jealousy is a green dragon.

Can i come out and prove your right :P

It's not sociopath, it's meant to be eye opening, and educational. There's been ten of thousands of rifles rounds fired on my range by THF members. A decent percentage have been at THF only, rifle matches. The Hunter's challenge that's happened three years in a row has no shot farther than 300 yards. A terrific rifleman with a 3-9 duplex scope with one of any 50 chamberings could clean every stage. It has been eye opening for many people, and they learned that they need to learn, and train more. How is that ever bad for the animals we hunt, and shoot?

what if someone came out dead set believing their method worked just to see it actually doesn't? Or that what they believed wasn't actually reality? Better to find it out on the range than when wounding or missing a deer. I've know many people that believe zeroing 1 to 2 inches high gets them dead on at 200 and a little low at 300. They never tested it it's just what they seen on TV. People who are dead set believing this will most likely refuse this opportunity bc they don't want to be proven wrong.

Bingo!

If a guy never tests or verifies his hunting loads prior to actually going hunting, it doesn't matter if he's a constant turret spinner with hashes and dots all over his reticle, a MPBR user, a 100% stand sitter, or bowhunter. It is not only poor practice and unethical, but a poor testimony to the kind of hunter they are.

If I sight in my new XTR 1" high @ 100yds, can I come out & shoot?

This was me up until 3 years ago before I had actually started checking it. I was at the first Hunters challenge and shot a bone stock Savage 7mm08 with a Burris BDC scope. I expected it to be like I used to think, 1" high at 100 will put me a couple inches low at 300. Why did I think that, It was because what I had always heard. I had also not shot past 150 yards at anything but I though I was pretty well correct if i needed to make that shot. Fast forward three years later, I learned how wrong I was on a lot of things.

This "experiment" is an opportunity for a couple of guys to stroke their egos in my prediction. In the real hunting world under real hunting conditions, the MPBR works fine for common hunting shots and no matter the outcome of said "experiment", FAR more deer will be shot from here on out with the MPBR guys over the turret spinners. I am a match shooter too, but hunting IS NOT match shooting so why try to make it that way? If someone spends the time to learn their "dope" regardless of spinning turrets or holding off, the results are the same. We have take new shooters to matches who did well using only a mil or moa reticle and never touching the turrets with shots ranging from 200-900 yds.

Jealous of what, exactly?

This will be a hoot to hear.

So you're coming out then?

No other explanation I could come up with. If you're so confident, why not just write "wish I could come out and prove it works"?

And how can you hear, the written word? We're not talking on the phone.

I think this is a heck of a good opportunity for anyone to actually verify where their rifle impacts at ranges beyond what most ranges offer. I might grab a BDC scope on an AR15 to see where it actually hits vs what is advertised.

I've been wondering where my 6.8 SBR would impact at 200 yds using my NV zeroed at 100.

I don't think your little experiment is in good faith, thus I must surely be jealous. Of what? Who knows, but surely that is the reason.

I better bust out my chronograph to see how fast I fell out of my chair laughing at that joke of yours.

Not in good faith?

You've been around a year, and think Chad and I are trying make people look stupid? That's funny since there's hundreds of THF members that have spent time with both of us, in person, that can refute that completely.

I still don't understand why a guy should drive several hours to check out his dope when he can do it at his own range in about 30 minutes. This assuming he hasn't already done so. Still not sure of you guys' motivation. Not calling you out as bad people by any means, but it is a little puzzling to me.

I've been around a lot longer than a year, friend.

You know what you are trying to do, I don't need to debate you on your little ideas. You're really not as clever as you think you are.

OK, that's cool.

Sure they should, if they have the place to do so. The point of this is for the ones that do not actually check, and trust what's on the box of ammo. Here's a place to actually check things out.

Ok. I assume when you guys are through with this MPBR range day, you'll be having a turret spinner range day for all the spinners who rely on JBM without verifying ?

Sure.

I don't get why all the push back. Never did I think opening up my home to a bunch of strangers would cause so much trouble. Geez.

Sounds like a good fun educational day. Very cool. Got to work or I'd be there. Interested to read about the findings.

Your generosity has never been questioned, at least in my mind. I still see the whole deal as a potential "I told you so moment" for you and Chad.

This post is what made me question the motivation behind it in the first place...



I hope you guys have a grand time though, and good luck with it.

I see it as a damn I would have swore my bullet would only be 3 inches low at 300. Sure am glad I got the chance to come out and see for myself.

Then you are the perfect candidate to go for a visit. Once again, that can be done at my home range very quickly and easily.

^^Exactly, Sapper^^

I zero at 100 and use my reticle or turrets for anything further I'd rather not rely on guessing a hold. But I use to zero dead on at 100 and hold for further distances. Last year I had the biggest buck I've ever seen at 300 and hesitated bc I was second guessing my hold and he ran off and was gone forever. A couple weeks later I got a Mil/Mil scope and learned how to use it.

Not everyone has access to such a place. It's much different around DFW. I think within a 60 mile radius of Dallas Tarrant county line there's 4 ranges longer than 100 yards. One is mine.

not everyone has access to a 200 plus yard range close by. Heck I got a buddy that has 300 acres in hill country and I don't think there is a place flat enough to shoot past 200.

A lot of us in the metroplex don't have a 300+ yard range right down the street. We're going to have to drive a little ways anyways. May as well have a fun day for free.

Also I've used the 25 meter zero and shoot out to 300 meters for the last 11 years in the Army. That's with iron sights so I get it works but it's not optimal by any means.

I zero at 100 and use my reticle or turrets for anything further I'd rather not rely on guessing a hold. But I use to zero dead on at 100 and hold for further distances. Last year I had the biggest buck I've ever seen at 300 and hesitated bc I was second guessing my hold and he ran off and was gone forever. A couple weeks later I got a Mil/Mil scope and learned how to use it. [/quote

No offense intended, but I do not see the point in a 100 yd zero if a guy has potentially 300 yard shots. If you would have zeroed at 200 or 225 (not sure what caliber you were toting) you would have killed the biggest buck you've ever seen easily if you were the least bit familiar with your load. If I see a whopper at 300 yds with a verified MPBR, the only thing I worry about is wind. Elevation is a done deal without screwing around.

If a guy has no access to a suitable range, that makes perfect sense. So where do all of the serious tactical guys shoot around DFW if there are none suitable for distance?


Sapper, thank you for your service to our great country. I sincerely mean that.

Jason, if I bring a duplex rifle for the experiment can we zero the Burris? I think I can swing this with work This is just a data pulling experiment for the typical hunter to see where you actually are at. I don't see why this is so much of a chit show

Absolutely!

I don't know why, either.

I get the feeling I'm watching the Presidential debates. Everybody stop and take a deep breath.

I see an offer of a little free range time in exchange for some data-gathering. Yes, you might decide you want some long-range training. If you don't like what they're doing, just don't go.

Pick me!!! Pick me!!! I know!!


Minute of deer works!!! But eventually the variables make math no worky!!

If I'm reading this correct, you dont want to prove mpbr doesn't work. You just want to prove that someone who hasn't verified their holds could be wrong. everyone here can answer that without an experiment.

Very nice offer Chad and FJG.

Bet everyone who shows up will have a good time.

For the naysayers, they are not going to embarrass potential customers.

Take a chance to have some fun and practice is always good. Long ranges are hard to come by.

"Chad stole from me"

I love posts like that with no background or facts provided. From the little I know of Chad I seriously doubt the veracity of that statement.

If I could come I would. I can shoot about as far as I want but it isn't a permanent set-up. Much easier for me to drive to Fireman's range, shoot, enjoy the company of other shooters and maybe even learn something.

I'm also willing to take Chad and Fireman at face value until they do something to lose my trust. Why? Because of the golden rule.

This negativity is a microcosm of what is wrong with society. As Groucho said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

LINKY
OTHER LINK

I retract the part of the thread about you TexFlip.

I think I have that day off but as that is week rut usually peaks at the lease I will be bow hunting. Might take the time to hit a range out there and shoot at 100, 200, 300 and 400 which is the longest shot I have available at the lease.

It can be an eye opener for those that haven't verified where things hit. On a box of 308 ammo several years ago instead of being, I think it said 8 inches low but in reality it was 11.5 inches low. Knowing that I did have no problems with a hog @ 325.

The only way to know for sure your DOPE Is correct be it from calculation aka JBM or others, charts on boxes the way to know for sure is to shoot it to verify be you a MPBR, reticle marks or knob turner is to shoot it. I remember when I first started doing this it was a real eye opener.

Those that can I say go, have fun and you might just learn something, if nothing else you might just learn something that can be useful both about yourself and your rifle which we all hope is the deer killing system when that moment arrives.

No it doesn't minute of vitals work, minute of deer causes gut shots, wounds, and misses.

Whomever is good to minute of vitals should have no problem showing up, firing three shots, getting center hits, and watch me applaud them talking smack on their behalf.

Not correct.

Many who are completely honest with themselves won't admit to not actually checking, and won't show up anyways.

I'd love to do it but can't. Schedule this with some advanced notice after deer season and I bet there would be more interest. Come this time of the year I need all my time off for hunting. This could morph into a different type of service at the range. I'd pay a reasonable fee for what you're offering. Range time, chrono, advice that I can take or leave...why not? Let it fill up to say 5-8 guys, $50.00 each for the day.

Sounds like a lot of fun and I believe it will be very interesting and will open the eyes of all who attend.

So you want people to show up that have verified everything. Just to prove them wrong?

An offer has been made.. If it's not for you, move along..

If they have everything verified, then we cant prove them wrong. How hard is that to understand? I've yet to see one single "X high at a hundred" or "MPBR" shooter say I'll be your huckleberry. If its so great why hasn't anyone had enough confidence in it to show up, and prove it? I'd love it for someone to show up and center punch everything, using their high or MPBR method. That guy is an awesome rifleman, and is an ethical hunter, very comfortable to 300 yards.

I'd also like for guys to come out with what ever mass produced ammo, trust what is printed on the box, zero where they see fit, and lets test it, while chronographing it. Those people will leave with a ton of knowledge of their equipment. How is that a bad thing?

I don't get how you, and many others, look at this as malice on our part.

Very nice offer fellas. Wish I could get the time off work to attend as I know it would be a fun and educational day.

Why would those of us who know what we're doing feel any need to prove anything to you or Chad?

Well, this blew up more than anticipated, that's for sure. Here's my thought process on this. I talk to hunters multiple times a day. A lot of them use a sight in method where the rifle is not zero'd. Often times a MPBR or a X.X inches high is used. There's 2 issues with this. 1- the actual sight in is not precise enough and not the actual amount that they planned for. 2- it is assumed that if they sight in in this manner, that the round would be on target at XYZ distance. My goal is of this experiment, is to write down what the hunter thinks is his actual drop and/or POI before we shoot. Then shoot, and compare the results. One we have the POI results, we can fine tune their rifle and ammo combination to make sure they are on target, possibly using the correct way to use MPBR or X.X high at 100. I would like to honestly see what the results of this would be.

If anyone knows me or has met me, the last thought process I have is to insult or belittle someone, especially when shooting. I have shot competitions for many years, and have volunteered to help new shooters at a match and work with them.

Why do I make ammo? Why do I want to make a great product that is better than someone else's? When a customer of mine tells me they made a perfect shot on an animal and the bullet went exactly where I told it to and it performed perfect. That's when I get the satisfaction of doing a good job. I love hearing the stories of my customers having the confidence in their rifle and equipment to make those hard shots.

There was/is no malice meant in this idea of a range day.

I still have your brass sitting right here in my room, and have for years waiting for you to pick up. Refusing to work for someone after all the bashing, is different than stealing. I told you then and I'll tell you now, your brass is right here waiting for you to pick it up. If you want it back, come get it. If you or anyone take to social media to insult and bash me or my company, then I am done doing business with you immediately. Plain and simple.

So what if it will be a "prove MBPR wrong day"? Chad and Fireman said "hey, come use my range and my chronograph for free, and than we will drink a few beers afterwards". That does not sound bad at all. I've never met either of these two gentlemen, and I see it as an opportunity to meet someone that is willing to help me with my shooting, help me with verifying what I "think" is correct but don't know. Why all the fuss? If you don't want to go, don't go.

No different in reverse, someone touting that Mil or MOA is useless, or just not necessary. I'd be happy to show up and shoot a few rounds. This is nothing more than the same thing as a bunch of guys challenging each other in a billiards hall. It's all friendly, and educational. I love to shoot pool, and love watching guys that are really good, never know what tricks I might pick up.

That wasn't the basis of the OP's thread. It was an attempt to disprove MPBR. If you want to drive 7 hours and come to my range to watch me and a buddy or two shoot 5-6 rounds sometime, then you're perfectly welcome to do so, brews and steak dinner on me.

Wish I could. I'm heading to Sanderson in December. But that doesn't mean that's your part of west Texas. "West Texas" is millions of acres.

Good luck on your hunt. I chase mule deer about 170 miles N of there.

I don't see a thing wrong with encouraging guys to verify their MPBR. I think we ought a cut JG and Chad a little slack. They've expressed willingness to take what they learn through the experience as well.

I think it would be interesting to see the results


But a couple of questions...

Why can't you do this with your rifles? Just reset your zero and not use holds?
Why out to 300?? Any particular reason you choose this distance

I think it would be interesting to test. My biggest issue is the week day. That takes me out quickly.


I know Chad well enough, I think, that his intentions is not to belittle anyone. I think he wants to see how it works in application vs theory.

I don't think they intend to belittle... now educate? probably so. The problem is some people can't accept the idea of being wrong without it being insulting. You gotta be able to accept what you're doing is wrong correct and move on with life.

Why can't you do this with your rifles? Just reset your zero and not use holds?
For the hunters/shooters who do use the MPBR method or X.X high at 100, I would like to see the results on what the differences between planned POI vs. actual POI, if there is any difference at all, with their actual hunting rifle. I, personally, sight everything in dead on at 100 yards. My idea is to almost have a focus group concept about MPBR or X.X methods and see if this method that helps shooters, confuses shooters, makes shooting out to 300 yards easy, difficult, or whatever. That's what I want to know.

Why out to 300?? Any particular reason you choose this distance
Yes. The whole concept of a MPBR or a X.X high at 100 yards is to be on target at a further distance, like 200, 250, or 300 yards. If you were going to plan to shoot at 100 yards, then you would simply sight in dead on at 100 yards.

If this idea or field testing is a bad idea, then it's a bad idea. But if shooters plan to use this method, and are off target, why are they off target? I'd like to explore this why.

Insightful and thoughtful.

I do quite a bit of long range shooting, but not competitively. If I was closer to Wolfe City and could take off work, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Nothing wrong with learning something new or practicing what you already know. Nothing wrong with understanding your rifle, it's sights and your ammo, intimately. I'm a nut about accuracy and knowing where my bullet hits at any range.

I think it's a very nice offer and would be a lot of fun. I used to hang out with a superior rifleman on his 1,200 yard range in South Texas. Spent many, many hours with him shooting all types of conditions and yardages. I learned more with him than I could have in a lifetime. I see Chad and Fireman's offer as an excellent opportunity for folks to improve their marksmanship for hunting situations. If you don't need that, then don't go.

But, based on my personal experiences, most hunters would benefit greatly from an exercise such as this.

Deer, vitals same thing. I would come if I hadn't already mapped out my 257 wby. Well Actually I might just so I can re-check velocity on creed, I think it sped up on me.

This thread is a good example of why I typically stay off such forums. Two guys offer the use off a range past 100 yards (hard to find in the area) Offer to set up a high dollar chronograph so you can get your speeds, and provide targets big enough to actually see where your bullet is impacting. Hang out and shoot and then have some cold beers after. Is there a chance someone might show up and find what they thought was wrong, of course, after working at a rifle range all through college I can almost guarantee 90+% of hunters don't know what their bullet does after 100 yards. So to sum it up for the simple. Free range day, good time shooting, experience most in the area cant get easily, and cold beer and fun after.
Yet, all some of you can do is bitch because you think they are insulting your mindset or you might find out something you (know) to be true isn't. What a bunch of panty waist little girls. I guess we need a safe space you can all hang out in.
Rant off. I'd come out, but I'll be chasing elk with my 6mm-338 dialed into mpbr.

Well hail....at least it's been fun to read! P_102

trigger time is spot on.

Nail meet hammer!!!

Yup!!! Well said, trigger time.

Yup.

This has gotten a little silly on here...if you're not interested then move along...why all the crap? These guys believe what they believe because they've put in their time, money and energy to know what they know. I think Jason was pretty clear that it wasn't meant to be anything but a fun day of shooting,ntesting/learning about your rifle/ammo/skills without anything but help coming from him...so why all the kaw ka?

By the way, both of these guys help everyone on here if asked. They both have helped me multiple times.

Guess not...

Thank you, sir.

Come on.

First shot at 700 yards! If it's high, we'll know it sped up, adjust accordingly.

I am confused. Seems like two experienced guys offering their time in the interest of gathering solid data in a method of rifle sighting they don't utilize. It appears they are approaching this from the most analytical unbiased position possible. It only seem logical to invite people who are experienced with said method to demonstrate it and insure the data is accurate. I have never heard of people getting pissed off over an invite to come shoot much less use it as a affront to insult someone.

I finally mostly understand what y'all are trying to do. I just don't understand why you don't play with it yourselves. Hope you don't mind if I make a suggestion. It might help some of us believe it is in good faith, if y'all try it also at the shoot. I learn better by doing and it may give you an insight that you're overlooking. 300 is a good range as most cartridges have a mpbr near it (excluding the speed demons).

Chad and I both use the reticle, any reticle, for aiming corrections. I've seen the majority of hunters, for years, talk about aiming point on the target. I want them to aim what they think is X inches high on the target, and see what we get. No way is that nearly as beneficial to those thatbsaid they'd show up, as actually shooting it. More time behind their rifle is never bad.

Think that's the third time I've explained that.

.....And wind never even enters the discussion.

Now you done muddied the waters.

I didn't want to mention that I hope there is "some" wind, but you brought it up.

Only a 30% chance as of now I am trying to get a 30-06 to bring with me too. Is there any kind of head count going?

I was a MPBR guy. I guess, I technically still am as I haven't sighted in my new MIL scope yet. But I checked my rifles at distances I'd be shooting @ & was never shooting further than 250yds. I wasn't too concerned w/precision shooting pigs but shooting deer I wanted to be precise. I think I'll like this new style (MIL) shooting much better. I'd love to come out & watch but I'm on shift that day. Seems like everything y'all do is on C shift so I haven't been able to make it out for anything. Yet. Hope y'all have a good time & some guys learn some stuff!

Prediction - everyone will have a lot of laughs and fun and walk away with valuable info.

Nice of you to host it.

Spoke to one on the phone yesterday. Don't know for sure total, three more said they'd be there.

I'm not a long range guy but what is being offered here seems pretty cool. The offer certainly doesn't deserve the animosity that is being generated towards knowledgeable riflemen. If it isn't for you, why cry about it? Geez Louise.

So this response should lead us all to believe this was nothing more than a good 'ol lunch and learn session? I guess my skepticism got the best of me. No animosity here I assure you. I have much more important things to worry about than this stuff.

Some people just can't.

A definite 'Maybe Attending' from me.

I'm about an inch high a 100, about 2" low at 200 and about 11" low at 300 (because that's what it says on the box). Considering my shots are less than 150 yards I've never really worried about it. But this opportunity is one I would like to take advantage of. Happy to be proven wrong and want to learn what's correct. Thanks for the opportunity.

Please do come out.

I hope your numbers are correct! If they are not, we will find out what is. Good ole boy Judd still hasn't let me give back his wonderful Razor spotting scope. There's no reason for me to believe I can't see bullet holes in paper at 300 yards. Meaning there won't be a time delay for us driving down to see where the bullets printed.

I most certainly don't want to re-start the battle of words here, but I have a personal example of what Chad and Fireman are referring to. I have a rifle (I'm not going to give any details and I'm not going to respond to any questions) that should shoot "about" zero at 200 yards, when sighted in "about" +1.5 inches at 100 yards, according to the manufacturers and ballistics programs. If I sight in in that way, It will shoot about +1.5 at 200. That makes no sense at all, but it's true and I have checked it half a dozen times on different ranges and different conditions.

That being said, I would love to participate, but I can't make it on Thursday. Have a great time.

Should be a great day and a good opportunity to learn. Wish I could make it but possible not this time.

All I know there are way way more hunters that have the rifles set from an inch or two inches high at a 100 yards. They kill deer every year with no problems, my self being one of them. It works for the majority of hunters, I see no reason for this study. Yes your rifle may be more accurate if you dial it in, but for people hunting 100 to 300 yards it works. It makes me laugh how you two guys are the gun experts.

So you're going to come out and hit every target in the center to 300 yards. Be glad to have you.

And I'll laugh around mid-morning on 11/5 when there's a post from a guy like you needing a tracking dog.. Again, an offer has been made, if it's not for you (and clearly it's not since you've got it all figured out) then move on...

With your eight posts in a year and a half why not impart your vast knowledge for the masses to learn from?

Post count is relevant to expertise??

Same here. I used to be on A shift and I don't remember all these opportunities coming up when I was on same shift as FJG....

Post count has nothing to do with this. Never claimed to have vast knowledge or be an expert. I said what works for me and others. Just like other people have posted it works for them. But since you want expert advice, please tell me what makes these two the expert on this. They are trying to prove a point that you have to dial or use your retical to kill deer. I call BS on that. I may not post much on here but I have been coming to this site for many years. Got love the guy that lets you know you don't have enough post to be talking. So you can take your 3917 post and shove it up your a--. Is that clear enough for you.

So because you and chad can use any reticle for aiming corrections, you can't possibly try mpbr?

Either one of us ever touted ourselves as experts? No.

Each one of use shoot more rifle rounds in a month than any ten guys you can come up with for the year, combined? Most likely.

But since you like to come around, and throw hand grenades, I invite you to bring some fives, tens, and twenties, and we can shoot for cash. The winner, can call themself an expert.

How's that work for you pumpkin?





One more tool in the toolbox.

Sure can, don't need to. It's not what we use.

You showing up?

Read this very slowly...

It does not help anyone near as much as coming out and doing some shooting for themselves!

You don't like me, I get it, I don't care. You are welcome to show up to my range and preach to us what we are doing wrong. Otherwise, keep it to yourself, and go away.

Maxlab needs to stay home can't teach an righteous one new tricks. I wish they just go away. Maybe if come out he might learn.

Turret guys versus holdover guys. On and on we go. If a fellow needs real precision or shoots out past about 350 or 400 yards, turrets are the way to go. If that fellow is a deer hunter, with a max shooting range of 300 yards or so, there's no need for turrets. The kill zone on a medium sized deer, though I haven't actually measured it on any of the hundreds of deer I've shot (with holdover), is about 12 inches square. If I'm sighted in with my 270 at 200 yards, the drop at 300 is about 7 inches. If I had my 220 Swift, that drop is about 5 inches. Not really much difference, and certainly not enough to cause me to miss. Shoot a 243 with a 100 gr bullet, it's 7 inches, give or take a bit. Shoot a 25-06 and it's 7 inches. Shoot a 250 Savage with a 100 gr bullet and it's about 7 inches. It ain't rocket science, which is why the BDC lines or dots on scopes are good for so many calibers. Now, if you have grandpa's old '30 Guvmint' with a blunt nosed 220 gr bullet, run the math before you start assuming the 300 yard drop. It isn't 7 inches, if sighted in at 200.

Good turret guys are also holdover guys. How many times does that have to be related.

Two hours ago I did a hold over for 600 yards. The difference between what I did, and MPBR is I know EXACTLY where to hold the target on the reticle, never touched the turrets.

I saavy holdover pretty well.....


So does my podnuh....



Pics taken down for TBone.

Really? You just turned this thread in to "mine's bigger than yours"... Good god man, how old are you?

Yes, holds do work great!

No one has said otherwise.

FiremanJG,
I have no need to drive 5 hours to go shoot, when there are ranges close by me. One thing I notice when someone does not agree with you, you get your panties in wad. Take your good buddy Charles on here, I've seen you go back and fourth with him all the time. I have also seen other members question your credentials which you could never back up. You say your not an expert then way are you giving shooting lessons. Maybe you should leave that for expert shooting instructors. Not the weekend warrior you are. This thread was about shooting 100 to 300 yards. And many people have stated they do not need to dial to shoot deer at the range. But you just don't agree. There is a place for dialing and using your recticle to shoot, but it's not needed for the average hunter. If I we're shooting past 300 yards I can see where it comes into play but I don't.

Maxlab, I really don't think Fireman's skills or qualifications need to be questioned. No need to be combative.

I certainly agree with Fireman that turret guys are or can be holdover guys. Makes perfect sense. And one thing I didn't mention is that many hunters really have no clue how much holdover is needed at various distances. My Dad, who killed a zillion deer, just ballparked the holdover. Luckily, with a 270, a fellow sighted in at 100 can just put the horizontal crosshair at the deer's back or just below and kill the deer out to 300 yards or almost to 400. A 3000 fps MV and a good BC are very forgiving, which is exactly why I prefer a MV at or close to 3000 fps. You turret guys, with fat, high BC bullets at 2600 fps have to be more technically involved and knowledgeable. I would say, without reservation, that 'turret guys' will be more precise with bullet placement at all ranges beyond about 200 yards. But I don't need real precision. I have a deer target, the lungs, that's about 4 inches by 10 inches, give or take an inch or two, and I have been able to hit that many many times in sunshine, blowing rain, snow, and late evening gloom.

But I probably couldn't hit my truck at 800 yards, unless I used my turrets and played with the math a bit. And called a Mulligan or two on the first shots.

Sorry to ruin your day T Bone.

The butt hurt is strong in this thread.

Props to JG and Chad for trying to help and allow people to use their range for free.

maybe if you taped off a "safe-place" zone at the range, and put up a "feelings-bar" more people would be inclined to partake?

Maxlab and jgraider I got ya something

I got no dog in the fight, but he's not trying to get guys out to convert them to turret twisters. He's offering an opportunity for guy to verify their MPBR at 100,200, and 300 yards. So they KNOW where their bullet will hit vs what they assume. If they assume their bullet will be 4" low at 300, and it's actually 9", that's a huge difference.

I have a sense of humor, and that's funny!

Problem for you is, I had my feelings taken out with my tonsils when I was 5, so that doesn't apply to me.

tiff makes a good point. If you asked my Dad about his bullet drop at 300, I doubt he'd have a clue. He'd go hunting with a pocketful of rounds, some WW, some Remington, and a Federal or two, and in 130 and 150 grain. And he killed a lot of deer. Like I said earlier, the 270 is forgiving. But if there are guys that haven't really tested the drops, here's a good chance to do so. I've tested my drops with the 220, the 260, and the 270, but I'm guessing that a high percentage of hunters have not.

I'll confess that my favorite deer rifle has a turreted scope. If I see a coyote at 400 yards, I'm dialing, not doing holdover. And if I buy another scope, it'll have turrets. If a fellow wants precision, he needs turrets.

Sapper Titan,
It's very obvious your on the Nut Sucker Report

I'm on the common sense report

I am too! But if a deer, sheep, etc is at 330 or less, no turret required as he's in serious trouble, unless the wind isn't cooperating.

Just FYI when Jason teaches a class you dial elevation and hold wind out to 800 and you start back then dial wind and hold elevation out to 800 then you come back and hold wind and elevation out to 800. He doesn't just teach turret twisting.

Like someone had mentioned earlier. The 3 "hunting" challenge shoots which I've been to all of them, they're eye openers for guys that have been hunting all their lives.

This has gone from an experiment in testing mpbr and getting insights on it, which the people putting in on refuse to try, to just a range day. Your little statement about how you could use mpbr but refuse to try it even for the experiment shows that this whole deal was cooked up to prove yourselves right.

I'm not preaching to anyone. I don't call myself an expert but I know there areore ways of doing something even if I don't agree with it.

I won't be there. I'm on shift and its probably a 4 hour drive.

JG and Chad have made a fine offer to help improve, understand, learn more about external ballistic and sighting. Go along and have fun, learn, share, or stay home. Don't Hijack their thread and free offer of range use with pointless arguments pro or con MPBR etc. Keep it on topic and don't take it to personal attacks. Most of all, share, learn, and have fun.


Below rules should help with your posting

Thank you sir, for all your help.


Anyone else that might benefit from coming out, get ahold of me. We'll have all day, I'm sure we have room for plenty more folks.

So who won?? (The argument not the range session)

I wish I could make it too this event. Regardless of opinion this is a heck of an offer for some quality range time and one might actually learn something. It seems like a no lose deal to me. You can either use what he teaches or disregard it. Either way it's some great range time.

I would love to come try this but sadly am working that day. Props to JG and Chad.

Been following this messy thread....IMHO, most "hunters" don't realize how far 300 yards really is.

A true RIFLEMAN will know his rifle inside and out. If he is a "hunter", he will have tested his rifle/load out to 300 yard range. IMO, with a steady rest, he can take a "heart lung" shot without worrying about anything but being steady and using great trigger control to make the shot.
BOOM, PERIOD.

ANYTHING, further, you enter a new ballgame. You have a decision to make, step up, spend the money on a TRUE .5" rifle and a VERY good optic.

These are two options for you:::

1. A TRUE, BDC turret, now wait, hear me out boys, TESTED to the range to want to shoot to, 600 yards is a good place to stop, maybe 700yrds if your set up can do it accurately. This can and has been done to much further distance with the proper high quality BDC scope and rifle, RE; Nightforce with custom turret made to cartridge specs.

2. .5" rifle and high quality scope with very good turrets. Key , here, as with above, you MUST know your dope. Dial your elevation, figure your wind, etc. do it OVER and OVER, JG and CHAD eat this stuff up like Skittles at Halloween. Almost DAILY, in all conditions, they are out confirming cold bore shots, making sure all data is correct. If JG gets an 800 yard shot at a big Muley Buck in December, if conditions are acceptable to him, he can make this shot. IF he decides its within his wheelhouse.

Only a few folks have access to places to PRACTICE, ALLOT, with the above methods. When you start taking shots at live stuff at these ranges, you better know your CHIT. You owe it to the poor dang animal to kill it QUICK !!!


I see many times on these LR TV shows, these "marksman" plain as day hit the animal right in the paunch or the azz, yes, it dies but suffers, this to ME is not ethical, I've wounded game before, came upon it still alive and had to "finish" it. It's not fun. If this does not bother you a tiny bit, you haven't been around long enough. A whole other can O worms, lets not open.

So we are all, men. We have been given the right to decide what is right for us. Just do it the way you want. Keep an open mind, if you don't agree, its ok, just to rag on others for their methods is silly.

SILVER BULLET TIME........BEECHES !!!!!!!

Ok ok ok... I'm in.

yes u r

show us your set up

your like me always got a round in my pocket when i'm cruzin!!!!

Dave


Preciatecha, Buzz.

It's a 22x47 Lapua

scary

The two that have sent me PMs that are for sure coming.

"Always ready 2 hunt"
"Unclebubba"

Anyone else?

Would be there if the day worked out...unfortunately no day this month is going to work out

Anxious to see the results or reports of this shoot. Curious how many factory loads are not near what should be expected.

Seriously, who is coming? I need minimum of 4 shooters for this range day to happen on Thursday.

I've been gone for the last 3 days, so I didn't keep up on the drama here. But this is meant to be an information gathering event. I hope to have 5 or more shooters to do this. Being an ammo company before hunting season, I'm swamped right now. I'm planning on taking a day away from the shop making ammo to have a range session for focus group on MPBR. The shooters that are dead set and feel strongly on the MPBR and X.X methods are the one's I really want to come.

I muddled through all the banter and dug up some guys that wanted to come out. I sent out PMs. Anyone else that would like to come shoot, send me a PM. I'm trying to get a for sure head count.

I will be there

Come on guys, I prove my wife wrong on a daily basis and she still loves me, sometimes.

No die hards want to show up and shoot?

Chad is gong to be very disappointed.

Or some of us are at work??.

We still going to make this happen or is the minimal participation going to kill this deal? Thursday morning is going to be a fun as [censored]

Minimal participation and the typical rain that happens when I have a THF group out, is making me considering canceling.

I understand so just let me know. Really sucks the 101st keyboard warriors can't make it out.

No surprise.

That's because (and NO offense to anyone intended), for those keyboard warriors you refer to that have already verified what their bullet is doing at those MPBR distances, it's a waste of time.

For those who haven't verified, and have no range to do so, it is necessary and would be fun.

I would love to go out there and show JG how to run a rifle, but I got a lot of work stacked up we need to finish

How so (the run a rifle part)?

I think Ramball was being facetious.

You know JG, maybe just let the know-it-alls cripple the animals, miss shots, don't know where the bullet goes, and so on go to blazes or he77. Not to waste your time, they have all the answers even though he brought it up.

Verified my zero on Saturday in preparation for this weekend.

Keep your eyes peeled for a lot of wounded deer in Webb county. I took Ramball's shooting classes.

Sucks for you because this what Ramball won at the last shooting competition

LMAO!!!!! Nice!!!!

rain tomorrow am forecast and looks like minimal participation and now work is trying to get me to work tomorrow.
So, JG and Chad what are you thinking?

I picked up an 11am appt. in Sherman so I will be in and out quick if it does go down.

Alright, cancel the drill.

well if you want it to rain, I plan a hunting or fishing trip and JG plans a shoot....

If it ever gets re-scheduled, I'm in.

me too

I apologize if I messed this up for us all. I really didn't mean to guys

That trophy will be on my mantle one day, guarantee it.

Any chance of reschedule for tomorrow Friday 11/4? I can take off work tomorrow and can have a couple of 223's ready with BDC reticles.

I shoot a BDC and would love any chance to learn more how to shoot.

But


Its Deer season, heading out to sit in the rain next week


but lets do it later

Please, NOOOOOOOO!! You tryin' to make it rain all weekend, Fitz?

That's exactly right. I walked around on the sticky black dirt all day. Can't do Friday.

My bad! I hope I didn't provide any bad mojo weather for opening day.