MPBR

Does any one sight their hunting rifles in using a maximum point blank range for a 3" rise and fall from line-of-sight?

Chuck Hawk rifle trajectory table

Using this method you only have to remember the MPBR for your caliber and bullet weight and you hold dead on to that range. After that you have to remember drop figures but for most rifles game will be taken inside MPBR.

One cool thing about that table is it allows you to easily see what the flattest shooting calibers are.

We used to sight in at 25 yards when reloading for our .270 with 130 grain bullets. We were good to 300 yards with that zero and it was back in the bulleye at 240 or so yards IIRC. Put you about the same numbers as his chart for .270 130 grains. We used the same 25 yard sight in for 6mm with 105 grain bullets also. I have now gotten so used to 100 yard zero since that is all I sight in at for the .270 and do not change my shot placement till I get out to 225 yards or more. My .280 is sighted in at 200 yard zero and has a BRH scope on it and I would not change shot placement out to 275 yards with it.

Interesting stuff...I hunt with my 6.5 CM and a MIL/MIL scope on it so hold is very straight forward. I will say that sighting in my rifle at almost 3"s high at 100 yds when most of my shots are around 100-150 seems unnecessary but it's still interesting.

MPBR induces error into where the bullet will impact. Anytime you induce error, it reduces likely hood of making a good shot and not making a clean kill. Why would you want to induce error and not know EXACTLY where the bullet will strike?

Just yesterday a customer of mine told me a hunting trip story from a few weeks ago of a guy on their trip that thought his rifle was sighted in "good enough". They took off over 1 week from work, spent money on the hunt, spent money on elk tags, put in all the time and effort to hunt elk, only to miss 3 elk because the rifle was slightly off. Blows my mind!

I guess you have to figure out what kind of shooter you are. Are you a close enough, or are you a shooter who wants to be precise. I'm a precision shooter and I want to know exactly where the bullet will impact when I pull the trigger.

This seems to be the hardest thing to get some people to understand. Have had so many clients and friends Ive guided and shot with be ok with a POI on a sight in target 5" plus off from POA, and say good enough to kill a deer. SMDH.

Chad, that is one way to look at it (and the way I have always looked at it) but when you are going to a new place and you have no idea if your shot will be 60 yards or 300 yards, then MPBR has some merit).

Anyway, I found the table interesting, especially for the .22 LR and .45-70.

I tried doing this the first season I hunted. I saw a hog at 50 yards, totally over thought the shot and missed him. I don't know if I was high, low, left, or right.

Basically, when I saw the animal I completely forgot everything and lost confidence. Now, I have a FFP scope with clear yardage markings on my turn dials and I always zero at 100 yards. Last season I saw a doe at 200 yards, turned to .4 Mils which is marked by a 2, and anchored her with a neck shot.

I am not saying that sighting in at 100 yards with a FFP Mil/Mil scope is for everyone but I will for sure continue hunt this way.

The issue I have with MPBR or sighting your rifle in at 1.5" high at 100 yards, is the shooter does not "know" where the bullet will impact at 300 yards. When I talk to a hunter or shooter who has their rifle sighted in with either MPBR or 1.5" high at 100, I ask them how low will they be at 300. The answer is always something like, "It should be 3" low," or "about 4" low". What happened to KNOWING where the bullet is. And most hunters who use these methods do not get the rifle sighted in correctly to begin with.

Point in case was at the Hunters Rifle Challenge match that we do. We had a simple 5 dot drill at 100 yards. 5 dots that are 1" in size, 1 round per dot, 5 rounds total. Technically, every shooter or hunter who has logged onto the internet has a sub MOA rifle, so I expect every shooter to clean this stage. 5, 1" dots at 100 yards should be a piece of cake then. Realistically, over 70% of the shooters scored less than half their hits on the stage. Several shooters who had "sighted their rifle in 1.5" high at 100 yards" were higher, or off their sight in. They would chase their bullet holes, and they didn't know where they were going to hit. They had holes high, low, and all over.

My point is this. You MUST have a solid, dead nuts zero where you KNOW where the bullet will impact. Solid, meaning a point of impact that lines up with your cross hairs. If you don't, you are inducing error and unknown POI into your shooting. This is the difference between just pulling the trigger and shooting close and precision shooting. The thing is, it takes so little effort to go from close to precision shooting!

Which is exactly why I was asking about a 300 yard range near me a few weeks ago. It's fun to shoot at 100, or 200, or 300 and then see where the bullet impact at the other two yardages is.

I'd say a 5 dot drill has absolutely zero merit when discussing mpbr and hunting from 0-300 yards.

How on earth do you miss an elk with a gun that is "slightly" off?

Should is nothing more than word choice if sighted correctly and shot correctly it will be where its supposed to be. You say you need to know where it will be, if you zero at 100 and dial a correction for 300 yards you only know as well as you shoot same as MPBR.

My 257 has 300 zero, CM is 100


Verify your ammo through the entire mpbr. Don't trust box specs.

I think Chad's point was that not only should you know where it will hit, you've tested it at 300 to be sure that that is where it's hitting. If you sight in a rifle 3" high at 100, 'assuming' a chart is accurate for all rifle and load combinations is not a good plan. There are factors such as barrel length and scope height to take into account, and differences in off-hand, bench, bag, bipod, etc.

Shoot it, and know for sure.

A dope chart should be created for every rifle that is going to be used for hunting unless the shooter is willing to accept that he can't shoot past proven yardages.

We sight in on center at 200 yards. Then we back up to 100 yards and see where we are. Same thing at 50 yards and then at 300 yards. Everything is written down. If we have a 400 & 500 yard range available we also shoot them for definite POI. If these 400 & 500 ranges can't be verified, we look at a ballistics calculator and go from there. If you have data from 50, 100, & 200 yards you can dial in the longer ranges within 1"-2" with a good calculator.

The bottom line is that unless you've actually seen where the bullet is impacting you're guessing. I won't take a rifle into the field that requires a guess.

I'm with Chad on this one. I want to know where my rifle is going to shoot. Not only is it being responsible (no offense meant!) but it instills confidence for me.

I guess I take shooting it at 300 to make sure that's what/all it drops etc as a given, the same load will not make the same velocity out of all guns and a lot of factory ammo doesn't live up to the numbers on the box and a lot of load data doesn't live up to the numbers on the pages.

I've been sighting in MPBR for years and it's always worked for me except that one time I forgot to compesate and shot over a bobcat at 100 yds. Deer and Hogs, no prob.

"Should" and "about" are key words that tell me a shooter does not 100% know. They may be fairly certain, but not 100%. So, there is some error in that statement. I ask these similar questions on a daily basis to get information on customers' rifles and ammo, and how they are shooting with a set up that may or may not work for them.

If you ask me where I am hitting at 200 or 300 yards from my 100 yard zero, I will tell you exactly in MOA or in mils, and it will be dead nuts on.

The 5 dot drill was used as an example to show that many shooters "think" their POI was one thing, where in reality it was something different. They "thought" they were 1.5" high, and ended up being higher, and had to hold several inches below to get a round on a 1" dot at 100 yards. So, if you can't hit something at 100 yards, what makes you think you can hit something further out with more precision? You can't.

The elk with the gun slightly off, yes, that's 100% user error and another topic. But I do hear stories every single year from shooters no knowing why they missed or made a bad shot because they did not understand or know exactly where the bullet would be at a certain distance.

A Verified MBPR has lots of merit. It's kind of like the great spike debate. I wouldn't focus on what's different, it's what the same practices are to get you to a real outcome that really matter.

I wouldnt set my rifles at a 300 zero if I just hunted a 100 yard feeder all the time. If I hunted a sendero in Stx that deer typically are more comfortable at the 200-300 mark then I'm using a verified 300 zero'd type mpbr methodology.

Exactly, a verified MPBR would be the best option, if you plan to run a MPBR. Most hunters who use a MPBR assume the velocity on the box is correct (which most times is way off) and run with it.

Everyone went through a mandatory zero check prior to competing, as well.

I'm not sure where you got this idea. I can only assume that you have never looked at a MPBR chart, which clearly states how high or low the bullet strikes at various ranges. Apparently the entire concept has whizzed over your head, perhaps because it is a tool for hunters, the overwhelming majority of which never will shoot beyond 200-300 yards or so, for any reason.

Hunters who utilize MPBR sighting are waaay more nit-picky than most hunters, who sight in at 100 yards, knowing that close to 95% of game animals taken are shot at 100 yards or less, and let it go at that.

Getting up on your high-horse to spout off irrelevancies while running other Texas hunters down says a lot more about you than it does about them.

- But if you think it is good business practice to run down and alienate the majority of Texas hunters, then I say go for it.

I have 3 different setups I have used over the years that work for me.

Rifles with dialup scopes 100 yard zero, also the short range like the pistol caliber ones, 38-55 and 45-70 are at 100 yards as well

Rifles without target turrets zero at 200

The ones zeroed at 200 have been verified at 300 yards and beyond and if I plan on hunting with them before season they will be shot to 300 or beyond to verify. The places I hunt these days shots are 350 and in so any but the short range ones I am good to go with. The short range ones I hunt with but know their and my limitations.

That last part is most important, shoot enough in positions you might find yourself in and learn the equipment limitations and your limitations.

On the part of verify at 300 yards, I have seen charts be off at 300 yards from 2 inches high to 6 inches low. 2 inches high no big deal really but 6 inches low for dang sure can be. That is why I say verify at the longer range of say 300.

Now if you are not shooting past say 200 yards set it 1.5 inches high at 100 and go bunting. That is with most bottle neck cartridges most use for deer.

MPBR is a step forward in knowledge from the basic aim and point, but still a step short of using more precise aiming information.

That last part is what I must concentrate upon, as I am limited as to what shooting positions I can utilize. Kneeling is pretty much out, for example. - I am much better off sitting, or shooting prone when the terrain allows. Standing with no rest or support, I can hit a 8 inch gong at 100 yards fifteen out of seventeen shots, last time I tried, but that's about as good as it gets.

I have been practicing with shooting sticks, but still haven't gotten the knack yet. It is very tempting to cobble up a shooting adapter for my camera tripod, and shoot a little yellow/brown paint on it.

Your attitude toward Chad is getting in the way of your thinking. If you put the wrong info in the MPBR it will not give you the correct POI. Going off of the factory box FPS, Which are most of the time incorrect means your inducing error. Sight in POI being off just compounds this.

I'm with Bobo. I used a 7mm Rem Mag almost exclusively for the first 35 years of my hunting life with a 3" high at 100 sight in, and killed over 100 big game animals with that setup. It really wasn't that hard...sight in, verify at 240, 300, and 330. It is a very effective way to kill stuff without over thinking it IMO.

I haven't developed any particular attitude about Chad, I have never met him. I respond to what he posts, not him.

But like Chad, I notice that you make an awful lot of off the wall assumptions concerning things that were never mentioned, one way or another.

This is the GIGO principle that I learned about as a programmer, at work; Garbage in - Garbage out.

Maybe you should take a shot at responding to what has been said, instead of making up stuff and then arguing with yourself.

Don't you think that might go further in advancing the discussion?

It sounds like that has worked very well for you. Great cartridge, by the way.

Lots of good information at the Chuck Hawks website. I do not agree with everything that Chuck says, but overall he tends to be very sensible and has a good grasp of his subject matter. Great articles there by Chuck, and other contributors.

In the places where I have hunted in the past, the ranges were too short for me to be concerned about MPBR. Since moving out to West Texas though, it has been a different story.

The MPBR system makes a lot of sense where the game is likely to be beyond 100 yards downrange.

And where did you move from?

He probably got that idea from tons of experience in shooting, and actually dealing with other people that are, and are not customers of his.

And you accusing someone of "spouting off" is laughable.

Hit the nail on the head, there.

I would never say anything to discourage a hunter from attempting to use MPBR, as a step up from what the great majority of hunters tend to do.

I chronographed a box of Remington green box a while back. In 12 shots, the spread was 137 fps from top to bottom, and only two made what the box said. Lots of room for error out there. Brand-new chrono and batteries, and the box of Hornady (10 shots) only showed a max spread of about 65.

I do not see that as being any of your business. Further questions of this nature will be ignored.

I moved to West Texas from my cotton farm, just south of Raymondville, Texas. I never hunted there, though. Most of my hunting has either been in the vicinity of Decatur, Texas, or along the Red River bottoms where my family has some property. Now I live where the Davis and Glass mountain ranges approach each other. Altitude is 4500 feet, and I have mountains around my place in all directions. Close shots are not as common as I am used to, as there is not so much vegetation in the high Chihuahuan desert. Game is abundant here though, including pronghorn antelope, elk, and barbary sheep. We have both whitetails and mule deer here. The mule deer and javelina are always pooping in my yard at night, though I seldom see them during the day.

Just curious.

Might make a difference to how you view hunting and shooting. There is a huge difference in hunting styles and skills in different areas - say South Texas Brush Country, Rocky Mountains, Big Woods of Maine or Saskatchewan.

But never mind. Tried to be nice, but that obviously is not on the agenda.

What? You are missing my point, totally. I've seen every chart you can create when it comes to bullet drop and sighting in. Like I stated in my previous post, most shooters who run a MPBR look at the data on the box, and try to sight in a certain amount high at 100 yards. Often times this measurement is not 100% dead on. This induces error further out. And the speeds on the box are most often much slower than what is advertised. This creates a large enough error factor out at 300 yards, that shot placement is not where the shooter wanted the bullet to go. I speak with customers daily and ask a lot of questions about how they set up their zero. A common answer is they sight it in at 1.5" high, and know they are good to 200 yards. That's true if their zero is actually 1.5" high at 100 yards.

When we do our hunter rifle challenge shooting match, most shooters miss high and low. Why is this? They think their bullet impacts higher or lower at a certain distance, and they miss the target high and low. The targets are fairly generous in this match (about 2 moa), and shooters often have to figure out their drop and holds. If you miss a 2 moa plate at 300 yards (6"), why is this if the MPBR is so reliable? My point is that it induces a lot of error, and most hunters do not know precisely where their bullet will strike at 300 yards using the MPBR method.

Also, if you agree that most shots are taken around 100 yards and in, why would anyone need a MPBR set up? Zero your POI to your POA at 100 yards, and be done.

The idea of MPBR is better than no clue, I'll give them that. For many, if not most, 100 yards to the feeder hunters, if they can readily shoot to 50 and 150, that's probably good enough for them. The best hunter I know ever, used this method, and said he could shoot through a pipe 300 yards long and hit any deer along the way.

I too like to be precise, but then again I am more of a hunter than a target shooter these days. There are some merit to both methods described above.

I'd also add that the best hunter I knew ever, checked his gun, scope, and results before the season pretty well, but never practiced much either. I practice alot, and hope my shooting ability can make up for me not being as good of a hunter as he was....

That may be true, but the same can be said for the turret twister who has not chrono'ed his loads or verified drops, like the MPBR guy in your example. What's the difference? Neither one knows what his bullet is actually doing at a specified distance.

More information, more knowledge, and more practice = more reliable result.

Even little steps forward are better than none.

Forget the practice and knowledge part, as that's not what I'm asking. Just assume though that knowledge, practice, etc is exactly the same amongst a MPBR shooter and a twister and neither has chronoe'd his load or checked drops at distance. Now what's the difference in the scenario I asked about?

Someone who adjusts turrets will have actual feedback, also known as "true statements" except on the first outing with the rifle.

Hand me an accurate rifle with a Nightforce MOAR or NP-R1 reticle, do not tell anything about the round - nothing, zero.

Someone else can even load it so I do not have a guess about the round other than how much it thumps me.

I'll zero it at 100 yards - a true zero.

Then, I'll hold on the top of a target at 200 yards, and use the reticle to measure the drop in MOA (sorry Jason).

The same can be done with a MIL scope, such as the NF MIL-R reticle or S&B P4F, and even with inexpensive (but very good) scopes such as the SWFA SS with MOA- or Mil-Quad reticles.

Say it is 2 MOA of correction needed, such as with a typical 308 with a 175 SMK.

Data is recorded. I'll make that correction - so add 2 MOA.

Then hold on the top of a target at 300, shoot a few, and use the reticle to measure again, and so on, as far as I care to check or until the rifle will not group reliably.

No additional information is needed.

I've done that more than a few times for friends to give them a very accurate drop chart out to 400 or 500 yards for their rifles I knew nothing about, even with scopes that do not have true target turret type adjustments.

The same can be done with duplex hunting reticles, but it is less precise. At 100 yards, use 1" grid targets to measure the size of the changes in the lines on the reticles, and then use those as measurements.

If I want to guesstimate the velocity, if I know the bullet, use the drop at 300 yards, and I can give you a pretty darned accurate estimate of velocity.

What I generally detest are BDC turrets or reticles. The only exception is NF makes a reticle for the 308 175 SMK, which is spot on for elevation and windage to 600 yards, and pretty darned close to 1000.

But that is a very standardized round.

That help?

I had some PD snipers out in May. We visited, and I let them use the range. I could hear them hitting the berm at 500, repeatedly. Then finally a hit, then several more. Then the same at 600 yards, 700, and 800. I stayed out of their business as bad as it pained me. A couple hours later it got quiet and I went to check on them. I looked at their variety of rifles, and they told me they were going to use the Gap-10. Super impressed, I had to play with it. One asked if I wanted to shoot it, "of course" says I. I dry fired it a couple of times, then loaded the Mag. Night Force NXS in MOA. Well I have .308 trajectory memorized in Mil. I converted Mil to MOA in my head, cranked the elevation turret, and pinged 500 first round. Confirmed what I thought it should be at 600 with them, dialed, and hit. They said "what the heck" I said, well I work here.

Point being, it can absolutely be done without a chronograph, I do it weekly. Get the trajectory corrections recorded, go into the ballistic calculator, and play with MV until the calculator matches what was just shot. No chronograph needed, but you do need a range with targets at various distances, and the know-how to do it. So if someone only has a duplex, and wants to KNOW the corrections for 200 and 300 yards, then gobs shoot those distances and find out.

Jeff and fireman, I get all of that, and I'm not being argumentative. I know you guys know what you're doing. My point was, an MPBR shooter like I was for 3 decades (with duplex reticles), upon shooting and recording drops, can be very, very effective out to 340 yds with that setup. I never used a chrono in any of those first 30 years as it didn't matter. Verifying drops by actual shooting is the key, obviously, whether you twist or not. That was they point I was trying to make. Is it as precise as a verified turret? No. Is it more than adequate for killing big game animals? Absolutely.

No argument from me. I stand beside you. But I would argue more people DO NOT confirm their holds, they trust a box of mass produced ammo. The guy with the duplex that zeroes high at 100, then sees where it's going at 200 and 300, then uses those hold points in the scope is doing all the good!

One guy told me all he had to do was turn the end of the scope and the bullet wound hit at that distance. He was referring to the adjustable objective.

Hey Fireman, I have a somewhat unrelated quick question if you don't mind.

I have a .243 and want to use it to learn the SS scope mil/mil method. Why would I choose a SS 10x over the 3-9x SS, or vice versa? Was planning to shoot the 105g Hornday HPBT, FWIW.

One guy told me all he had to do was turn the end of the scope and the bullet wound hit at that distance. He was referring to the adjustable objective. [/quote]

WOW!!! Never heard that one before.

Definitely works. The difference of significance is the level of precision in shot placement. MPBR as you are describing results in "aiming for the deer" and being happy if it hits the front half. At 300 yards, knowing the precise correction needed allows for very specific and reliable shot placement, such as high shoulder to drop it where it stands. Same is equally true at 100 yards, which is why I use a true zero at 100, and then correct as needed. I strive for DRT. Doesn't always go according to plan, but certainly reduces the likelihood of a really bad mistake and the animal suffering.

WOW!!! Never heard that one before. [/quote]

Would love to ask him to demonstrate

Depends on what you're doing. Will it need to be in service in brush, and or low light situations? Then I'd go with the 3-9X. Or will it just be for plenty of light, and to play with 100 yards and further? If it's the second one, then the fixed 10X is a great option, and less money than the adjustable.

I have an SS fixed 12X and really like it. It's not completely out of service at close end shots, but I don't know if it would work for what you're doing with it.

I too agree with Jgraider. MPBR is just another tool in the toolbox for those who can and will use it properly. There are those hunting situations that will not allow you the time to dial up elevation. Sometimes you may need to shoot at varying ranges and do it quickly. Depending on the situation I may employ one or the other technique. There's no "one size fits all" approach to the many variables in hunting. You're not always sitting at a bench, shooting at known ranges, on static targets. Rather than berating someone for using one technique or another, or completely dismissing one or the other is foolish. If someone isn't doing it right, then share a method that will correct one's mistakes or something that they overlooked.

Most hunters are not as advanced when it comes to this sort of marksmanship. They only know what they've been told. So lets tell 'em some good info.

BTW, there has been some good info exchanged here.

I usually hunt open country mule deer and whitetails. My primary hunting rifle is a McWhorter 7-08 with a Leupy 4-14x40 VX3 that has both CDS and a B&C. I had the B&C installed when it was back at Leupy getting a tracking situation fixed. The B&C is setup perfectly for a 140 AB at 2830fps.

I was wanting the SS as a learning tool on a .243 that I just bought to fart around with and learn the system. I want to be able to have a usable mil-quad reticle in the SS, and understand not al MQ's are the same.

Did you read all the posts?

The fixed will get you going, dialing and holding. Look on SWFA's site. They show the reticle for all their SS scopes. Pretty sure the variables and the fixed all have the same exact reticle. My 5-20X and fixed 12X have the same reticle.

Why yes, I did. That's the reason for my last sentence. Giving kudos.

Fair enough.

Here you go!!! Let's do this!

Free Range day!

http://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/6512876/Free_Range_day!_For_the_MPBR_a#Post6512876