Neat Chuck Hawks article that will likely offend the magnum fangirls

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ultra-long-range.htm

Since I am now the resident expert on Long Ranging, courtesy the First and Finest of THF
LOL jk jk. (I really am kidding here. Don't be triggered or get your panties all twisted.)

I do remember reading on here that the .270 is not the go-to for long range hunting or shooting and that might-is-right, magnums are the bigger fandom. Mr. Hawks here has a compelling argument.

Jokes aside, I don't know what to make of this piece. Anyone who won't get on the soap box for/against 270s, 7mm's, 6.5's, 300s, or 308s for that matter, care to explain it to me? Or at least your analysis.

Here's what I get: unless you're shooting 1000yd+ steel/competition, a 270 will get you by. I might be dead-wrong, so help me out here.

"Rifles and cartridges suitable for shooting medium size big game at ranges much beyond 300 yards are relatively few. Shooters with the experience and ability to take advantage of these rifles and cartridges are even fewer."

Chuck is talking about hunting cartridges, used by hunters. - So his article directly addresses the intended audience here on the Texas Hunting Forum.

This is one reason why his mention of maximum point blank range figures are particularly relevant here.

His observations and advice are right on the money and it is true. - The 270 Winchester shooting 130 grain bullets is an excellent choice for long range hunting shots out to and slightly past 300 yards. He does not mention anything about unsportsman-like shots at ranges far beyond the capability of almost all hunters in his article, much less encourage that particular type of behavior among inexperienced hunters, the ones most likely to find the idea of lobbing projectiles at game animals from extreme ranges to be fascinating.

Experienced sportsmen know that lobbing projectiles from extreme ranges is no substitute for basic hunting skills that will get you within reasonable shooting range of a game animal.

The long-range shooting enthusiasts who insist upon hanging out here on the Texas Hunting Forum instead of one of the more appropriate long range shooting forums will of course disagree, and tell us why Chuck is way off base from their perspective. How well those arguments will apply to Texas hunters will be up to the readers here on the Texas Hunters Forum to individually decide.

..this ought to be fun and a good excercise in the Dead Dog Days of Summer...

Can't say I wasn't warned about the summer humidity down here at the Edge of the Pine Forest...but jeezLouise it gets boring with cabin fever, where the BH can trap me into Inside HoneyDoo's I was hoping to avoid until Fall...
Ron

I dont know of more than 1 or 2 posters who hunt at extreme long ranges. Even the long range shooters seem to keep their shots on deer to under 400 yards.

Even if it is explained again , it will not be retained again

It would be a waist of time

I hope that's true. It doesn't appear to be in many cases. Every time this subject comes up, it seems to draw multiple posts of "DRT" shots at extreme distances. My thoughts when I see them are:

1)Internet hyperbole;
2)What about the misses/wounded animals?; and/or
3)Can't you get closer?

I think the angst often comes from the fact that hunters come on asking questions about this or that cartridge/bullet, and within a few posts the direction goes to long-range stuff like BC, dialing scopes, etc. It just seems to be the "in" thing these days everyone is fascinated with - which is cool and fun and all, but rarely applicable to where the vast majority of folks (me included) should be when hunting, which is 400 and under.

So much emphasis on 1/2 minute accuracy, long-range equipment, this and that... Why? Because folks can buy it and feel like it gives them an advantage. But does it really when it comes to hunting?

David Petzal wrote this, and I pretty much agree with it:

The guys I see posting about hunting at extreme long ranges are usually talking about hogs or coyotes. Neither of which I have an issue with taking 800 yard shots at. I know there are plenty of guys out there taking extreme long range shots on deer, but I just don't see THFers posting about it much. Every now and then Derrick will post pics of a customers animal shot at 500+ yards, but that usually the only thing I see about it.

ALOT of guys here shoot steel and paper at extreme long ranges, but seem to shoot animals at a much shorter distance. I've seen several say, practice at 800, and 400 becomes much easier.

I'll take the bait.
First statement is my LR Big Game rifle currently is a 280 Remington shooting 168gr Berger's at 2880.
In my Ballistic program it says today sitting here in Waco my PBR is 280 yards. My PBR is set at 5 inches below LOS so my 280 load is not even what Chuck Hawke's considers LR cartridge BUT he is using a 3 inch high at 100 sight-in vs my 1 inch and I have a 200 yard zero all in all mine would work out to a 275-285 yard MPBR. So if I am reading this article correctly I should limit my shots to approximately 275 yards??
Well that's strange as in the first 5 minutes of my Elk hunt last season I dropped a Bull in his tracks just propping on a fence post at almost 100 yards past that. I had a few weeks prior laid on the ground and put first shot hits on steel targets(smaller than elk vitals) out to 800 yards with the same gun.

So while making the argument you don't need a Magnum to shoot out to longer ranges I do know that my combo due to energy or whatever measurement you care to use is probably a 400-500 yard elk cartridge and if I actually planned to take longer shots I would need to step up in power.

This might be a good time to insert that for most of my adult life I NEVER took a gun Big game hunting I was strictly a bowhunter with most of my kills with a recurve....in fact my only two "book" kills are archery so no one need go down the git closer path.

I am pretty old school when it comes to hunting and shooting but aren't we all intrigued by that long shot possibility? Years ago we all were limited to Chucks theory of MPBR because we could not judge distances well enough to reliability hit targets past PBR. Now with the advent of Rangefinder's all can easily get the exact distance to a target with the touch of a button. That IMO is the cause of all the increased interest in LR shooting which has brought on all these great new rifles/optics/ High BC bullets etc to meet those challenges.

I know Derrick with Horizon Firearms just returned from Africa which he says is a LR shooters paradise due to terrain and I am sure animals with exceptional senses that can be tough to get close to as they travel in herds. Anyway I believe he took 6 animals from a couple of hundred yards out to a Big Kudu at over 700 yards with no misses and no lost animals using 6.5 Creedmoor for smaller animals and the 28 Nosler for larger.
With the knowledge and the right equipment under the right conditions LR range hunting is ethical and doable.

One more brag on my part. Last weekend I shot my 28 Nosler at a 18 inch steel target at 1000 yards with a front rest BUT no rear rest so just propping on my fist and had 13 consecutive hits using 195gr Berger Hunting bullets. This was in a swirling 5-15 mph wind that gave all us that were shooting .308's prior to that fits.

Since the OP asked about 270 Win all I would say is with the right bullets and the correct twist rate no reason it shouldn't work to the same distance as my 280 or other similar cartridges. The main thing to remember is just hitting an animal at longer distance is just half the battle. You also need to consider bullet weight /construction/velocity at impact as you still have to actually kill the animal cleanly. Brian Litz's book Applied Ballistics's For Long range shooting actually has a chapter on the Lethality of LR hunting bullets and is a good read.

From what I gather even the LR guys on here are not magnum guys for the most part. Looks like the 6.5s are real popular to me.....

Great quote.

I would not shoot at a deer more than 400 yards away. My longest shot was 345 yards with a 270 130gr. I have really enjoyed getting into hitting steel at long distances with the 308. Great way to enjoy the off season months.

I agree with the author when it comes to medium size game like white tails. And I also would not hesitate using the same rifle and bullet on an Elk 400 yards or less.

Most modern rifles, when sighted in dead on at 200 yards, will hit roughly 6-8" low at 300. There's really not much difference in a .308 and a 300 mag at those distances. And, 3-400 yards is plenty far on a game animal.

This:



I will not bother to name names, but there is at least one member of this forum who has actually bragged about shooting deer at 800 yards.

This is the direct opposite of sportsmanship, taking the manhood out of the manly sport of big game hunting in Texas. - Or anywhere else, for that matter.

One guy? 600-1000+ yard hunting is the new rage now. Ever watch Best of the West? YouTube? Even on here 600+ shots on deer are pretty routinely discussed.

I'm so glad there are members of the THF to serve as my moral and ethical compass.
Thanks for saving me from the dark side.

Farthest shot I've ever taken at a deer (years ago with my first .30-06) was approx. 320 yards with about a 4" hold over. The shot was low and a second shot was needed to anchor the deer. Since then most shots I take are within 150 yards. Self imposed limitation I guess. It's what I'm comfortable with within my skill level until I start practicing at longer distances.

I am excited to take a long range shooting class hopefully soon. I will still probably keep everything under 400. But I'm sure it will help my skill level and be a lot of fun.

I really need to do the same.

A 270 with a good bullet will do right be most hunters in Texas. If you start talking about other game. I.e. Elk, bear, etc. I will take a magnum.

My longest shot was about 330 with a .270 and 130 grains also. CoreLokt. I'm 57 and most of my shots are well under 200 yards.

The article is not about "extreme long range" at all. It is about MPBR.

Those are not the same or anywhere near the same.

No discussion of wind drift or anything that an actual Extreme Long Range Shooter would care about.

for a 300 yard shot, .270 is a perfectly adequate cartridge to use on any native Texas animal. But nobody has ever questioned that... I'm not sure whose feathers this is supposed to ruffle? the headline and the actual article say very different things.

Don't think you're paying close enough attention.

To go just "shoot" most of us shoot short actions of some sort. 6mm variant (6X47, 6 Creedmoor, 243, ect) 6.5 mm variant along the same lines, 7mm variant along the same lines, as well as a good ole .308

But if it's time to go kill something at some distance, many of us show up with a long action cartridge with lots of powder, thereby increasing foot pounds of energy. I.E. 7 Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, and so on. We really don't care about how much energy is delivered to a piece of steel, but it certainly matters on an animal of any size.

I take the big gun for mule deer and elk.

Magnums were invented to drive heavy bullets faster than a non-magnum cartridge would, not be able to shoot extreme distances.

Most magnum cartridges have trajectories very similar to standard cartridges when loaded with mid to heavy for caliber bullets.

That's good.

Here's my point: Hunting is a very broad, all encompassing endeavor that requires many skills - woodsmanship, knowledge of the game sought, proper gear, tracking/spoor-reading (both pre and post shot), use of terrain, weather effects (micro like wind currents and macro like overall conditions and their effects on game movement) - just to name a few. And each of those has many sub-headings....

Accurate shooting is a very important part. But no more important than the other parts. Most people with a modicum of effort learning the basics (breath control, trigger control, using a proper rest/shooting position) can master accurate shooting at ranges of 300 yards or less. When hunting, you are carrying your rifle a whole lot more than you are shooting it, and it's just a heavy stick unless one places oneself in the proximity of the game sought in the first place.

But shooting related stuff (calibers, platforms, brands, optics, ad infinitum...) gets an outsized share of the ink, the discussion, the focus. Why? IMO because 1) it's more amenable to endless discussion with words and on paper and 2) the marketing of "stuff" is where the money is, not learning skills that make one a better hunter (those folks selling stuff ain't dumb).

Most of us don't have the time we would like to be hunting and actually gaining experience that our forefathers had to hone the skills in the first paragraph. But we can buy cool "stuff", spend some range time shooting, and spend a lot of keyboard time discussing the ins/outs of .277 vs. .284 vs. .308, of mil dot vs. moa, of 3-9x vs. 6-25x, etc. I'm as guilty as anybody.

But if we developed the skills in the first paragraph, then shooting animals at distances where they couldn't detect us even if we stood up and said "I'm coming and hell's coming with me!" wouldn't be necessary.

But there ain't no app for that....

^^^^ This entirely! Shooting is but one cog of the hunting wheel, as eloquently stated above.

The mantra of "I had to shoot at that distance" is just an excuse to be made for one of many reasons, probably all beginning with a lack of hunting skills and/or laziness. This isn't to say there aren't people perfectly capable of making long range shots, but many that take them are not.

Having said that, I will do what pleases me and teach my kids the same ethics of my hunting techniques, whether they or someone else agree or disagree I can not control, and as I have said before, if it is legal...have at it.

Chital have you ever shot a magnum caliber?

NP, this is the same discussion, different day. I don't dispute the hunting, stalking and animal behavior skills. They are all the steps and learning that needs to happen to get one's self into a position to make a shot. There are some of us that have heard, and have told stories of "I just couldn't hit it that far away, and I couldn't get closer without getting busted". And those of us that want the extra tool in the toolbox to prevent eating a tag sandwich, learn how to make clean hits a little farther than most people are capable.

And again, I will repeat what I've always said, I have never shot a game animal at "long range", only prairie dogs, coyotes, and hogs, but I am prepared to hit a game animal at a slightly extended distance if the need arises. It is nothing more than being prepared. However I think if a hunter wants to go out prepared to do so, he or she needs to learn how, and practice as much as possible. I've told everyone I've had out that I'm not trying to make them long range deer killers. But once you've learned what it takes to hit at 800 yards, 400 doesn't seem like such a challenge. And please go out and kill hogs as far as you can see them, if the shot is safe.

Why does a deer rank higher than a hog?

In some places wild boars rank just as high if not higher than most ungalets

For me a deer is the ultimate game animal. A hog is nothing but a pest to be exterminated.

T.P.& W. does not define them as game animals.

They are not natural to the habitat.

They are invasive.

They are costing Texas farmers and ranchers millions due to their destructive manner. I fell the pain they cause, on my little 70 acre place. They've ruined great hay ground, and caused expensive damages to my tractor and implements.

I hate their guts and livers, they all should die by any means necessary, young and old.

The few deer in my area aren't causing any trouble.

For me a coyote is the ultimate prey. They are absolutely brilliant, and difficult to out smart. But the great thing about this state is we can enjoy our favorite type of hunting as we see fit.

A hog is twice as smart as a deer. There are a lot of things more ultimate than a deer

I've shot a 7 rem mag and a 300 win mag.

This is really informative. TT85, I put all animals on the same ethical level and get told to go to PETA.

I don't have anything to add, because I really don't and y'all are really awesome.

Deer are just as destructive in certain areas in the state.


I've just never understood the blind hatred for hogs. I hate turkeys a lot more than hogs

No doubt deer cause their own problems destroying certain crops. And those farmers have permits to deal with that. In my area the hogs are the problem.

If you had ridden a Deere 4430 through a football field sized area, that you had plowed perfect smooth, and fertilized for grass rehab. Only to get your teeth rattled put of your mouth due to hog rooting like I have, you'd hate hogs just as much as many of us.

Because hogs are vermin, just like 'yotes.

I sell ranches for a living, I've been in hog holes that swallowed the front end of my truck.

Killed a lot of them too both in the field and in traps I just don't get how they rank lower than a deer? I wouldn't do anything to a hog that I wouldn't do to a deer and I'm pretty bad on hogs.

I don't want, or need to write anymore to make you see.

It's off topic anyway.

That's your choice...I never let a hog walk and hardly ever shoot deer. Deer do not have 10-20 babies, twice a year that in turn are ready to continue the cycle in 6 months. I only shoot mature deer, but any and every hog I see...no matter how far out they are, get a bullet......period. I have no sympathy for those bastages and wish I didn't have to worry about them.

Deer are game animals, pigs are varmints.

And a great tractor that one was! I remember getting in brand new ones with the fully equipped cabs, cranking up the air and the stereo, and driving them up the main drag in Fabens to put fuel in them. They were nicer rides than my car was back in those days.

Yeah, I know, but the thread's all over the place already anyway.

Why don't we just go ahead and call them "sub-varmints?" That's what they are!

Still using it.

I had thought about going a little newer, drop in HP, and gain front assist. But I just like the simplicity, and reliability of the classic.

Mine is older than me though.

Someone may get offended.

What about axis deer, black buck antelope and nilgai?

Sounds like you need a 4020D!

Hogs are a cross between a dozer with rippers, and a cockroach. Those animals you listed are not.

The truth is that people have their own prejudices for and against certain animals. There is no logic behind it, though they will attempt to justify it by various means that have no meaning. I wouldn't say that there is anything wrong with that, in itself. However, when stones are thrown at the other end of the spectrum, hypocrisy is revealed, though rarely noticed.

You can't be serious!!!

TT85 is basically saying respect hogs, just as any other game animal. And, the definition of the word game has to do with hunting, and hogs are hunted--sorta. Hogs are more exterminated and shot than hunted, in the inflicted parts of the worlds, especially here in Texas.

If you're having hog troubles, then you don't think it deserves any respect or that it's life is worth anything, especially conserving that there's no tag or bag limit. If you're not, then they're a pastime, like for me (I rarely hunt pigs).

I really doubt THF is the proper setting for a philosophical discussion the value of animal life, with religious, ethical, and logical factors involved, so just leave it be. Me and TT85 will respect pigs and y'all can gut shoot them at a 1000yd, if so you please. (That's a playful remark. I'm not out to get you or dishonor your family, magnum cartridge, 6.5mm or pet dog. Don't implode.)

Marc I grew up in an area that Deer where thought of as vermin.. With that said ask me about my opinion of pronghorns(aka the true plains pasture maggot)

Bobo my buddy is a farmer for Del-monte and they have entire fields destroyed by pronghorns and elk.


Every elk they see gets shot on sight. The pronghorns as many as they can get permits for

Why do you view pronghorn this way Bobo?

I'm not a hog fan. I don't care how they die. They are non-native scum to me.

That's somewhat hypocritical to some, no doubt. They are just in the same category as rats and nutria to me....

I shoot coyotes because my place has plenty of them. If they were few and far between I would leave them alone. At least they are native and have always been in the food chain.

When I was growing up I couldn't stand the people with air conditioned cabs. We had two John Deere A's, a Model B(Popping Johnny), a Minneapolis Moline and an Oliver. We didn't farm, strictly ranched so our tractors were only using for haying, bush hogging and occasionally planting winter rye.

There were no hogs when I was growing up and not as many coyotes but plenty of deer. I'm in my late 50's and have killed many many deer. In the 60's and 70's we wore blue jeans and army surplus jackets, didn't feed and sat in home made stands. That is still how I hunt deer, though I don't hunt them much anymore. I also have nothing against feeders but for me there is no challenge. If I had to pay for a lease I know it would be a different story, you gotta get a return on your money.

I do enjoy hunting hogs, don't hate them and feel they should be killed as humanely as any other animal.

I think I enjoy hunting coyotes the most and get a huge rush out of shooting the occasional bobcat.

I also enjoy hunting Axis deer, to me they are more of a challenge than Whitetail and taste much better.

YMMV.

I can see why some don't like hogs. Personally I get more thrill out of hunting hogs than deer though. I hunt a lease where I can pretty much go out and see deer just about every hunt so shooting one aint that big of a deal to me. Of course I get excited about a big buck but there aint too many of those around where I hunt. Hogs on the other hand........they get BIG where I hunt and it never gets old trying to hunt them down. As a bonus they taste great too!