Open Carry Opinion Question

My wife enjoys walking, which means we often find ourselves walking in remote areas of parks and other places.

Do you feel there is a deterrent benefit to open carry in remote or isolated areas, or woukd it be best to always appear unarmed?

Situational awareness and your command presence

I grew up in WV and spent the last three years in Arizona where open carry is completely legal, and very common. No issues at all with open carry, even though tacticool community likes to paint them as targets. Contrary to what some folks think, criminals do not prefer armed victims.

I think it is a good idea to carry however I like to keep it at least somewhat concealed. I dont want people to know I have it until I need them to. I lived in the country for most of my life and I felt safer there than I do in the middle of the Metroplex.

Can you comment further? Does your armed appearance also position you as being more in command of your situation than you would otherwise?

My wife enjoys walking on a 13 mile public trail that winds along a creek in our area. Much of the trail is located in areas that are isolated and away from roads and other access. My question really focuses on whether or not there would be any benefit in open carry in such remote areas where it could literally take a half-hour or more for a LEO to reach you. I should also add the trail is located in what some might call a buffer area between high and lower crime areas of suburban Houston.

Just throwing the question out there for good discussion on the pros and cons.

I think one advantage of open carry would be quicker access to the weapon should the need arise.

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This.



Surprises are like gifts. Its better to give than to receive.....

I think you got this backwards. It's the LOOK AT ME, tacticool crowd that wants to show off their piece. I could care less what the next guy does and support the right to Carry. I am far from the tacticool crowd and will keep mine covered.

And Yes, I do believe in some situations, you can paint yourself as a target. And as the other side of the argument, maybe it could prevent something. I don't intend to find out.

I was taught situational awareness and command presence at a fairly early age on the job. No need to show your cards. Carrying yourself like you are in control of situations will go along ways.

Also, why put yourself in a predicament of walking in an area that you deem sketchy? Why not pick somewhere you think may be safer? Sometimes, if a person goes out looking for trouble, they find it.

No predator is going to see a woman carrying a firearm and be MORE inclined to make an attack.

Unless you are in the local stop and shop and the crazed lunitac is already of mind to do everybody he sees grave harm. Then you are target numero UNO.

Good post. Really good.

Tough choice. Do both at the same time. One open, the other concealed.

Tell us how much less you could care.

First avoid isolated areas.

But if that's all you got, I like a fanny pack in front or one of the Maxpedition over the shoulder bags, either way, since you're walking have it unzipped.

The main key is don't look longingly into each others eyes but always be aware of people around you. If someone approaches , slip your hand in your bag, grip your gun till it returns to condition green.

you don't want anyone "surprising" you.

if you open carry and look like you know what to do with it, someone would be really whacked out to F with you.

very isolated area?? 14.5" AR, slung in front.

I just did. Do what you like. Its legal. It's not for me. More power to you. Simple enough?

The focus here is what actions a person can take to avoid becoming a victim. That having been said, how many crime victims would agree it was their own actions that made them become a victim?

Granted, there are those who might open carry in hopes of having an opportunity to use their weapon. However, I believe the vast majority of those who open carry, do so in order to demonstrate their ability to protect themselves and lessen the chance of having to use their firearm.

They won't agree because they didn't know.

Go toothed store tomorrow and see how close you can get to lady and her purse.

Know you surroundings and keep a Safe,distance. That distances is unknown. What if your self to death.

Stand strong and look ahead at what could be a threat or threat area.

I am not saying any crime is the victims fault.

You are suggesting/inferring/asking if openly carrying a firearm would be acceptable in an area bordered by High crime.

If that's what it takes to make you feel safe, then get after it. I hold the opposing opinion.

What I meant by the comment was that avoiding an area that YOU feel succeptible to falling victim in is probably the best option, gun or no gun.

In my mind, that firearm is a weapon of last resort and should only be pulled or shown when eminent danger is unavoidable.

If you decide to open carry on your walks, I would highly recommend a Level 2 retention holster. I always use one the infrequent times I open carry. It's just an added level of weapon safety and security.

My point is it's "couldn't care less". If you could care less, that means you care a little bit since you could care less than you currently do.

A display of some form of physical resistance is common in the animal world as a deterrent to attack. Even prey animals often have a way of demonstrate their strength in not being caught.

Everyone open carries on The Walking Dead... there must be a reason!

Open carrying may be a deterrent or it may not. You just can't predict that. Use your best judgement on a case by case basis and do the best you can. There is not settled rule.

This. Do not depend on open carry to get you out of bad situations by simply displaying the weapon. Don't put yourself in bad situations to begin with. Sometimes it can't be helped, but other times it can. Being constantly aware of your surroundings and reacting to them correctly is more important than whether you carry concealed or not.

You describe a remote area bordering some very bad areas. Sounds like main action you can take to keep your wife from becoming a victim is finding her another place to do her walking.

Agreed.

Our method of carrying is not our self defense. Our self defense comprises all of the training, mind set, situational awareness, and other preparation that we employ.

Method of carry is one small part of self defense. We each have to make our own, personal, decisions and arrive at our unique approach.

I have performed my own risk analysis, considered my own condition and abilities, examined my tactical and strategic considerations. For me, carrying openly is the best option.

I will continue to carry openly where I can, conceal as the situation dictates, and disarm only if I must.

Your mileage will vary.

O. Lee James, III
CPT, US Army (Retired) Honorable Order of St Barbara
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR

All points well taken.

Still, there are times when simply being in a remote area, or just being alone makes you vulnerable. A good example is one that I have shared before, such as changing a flat tire when passing through a high-crime area.

For what it's worth, open carry is permitted in most state parks and many local parks where you can often find yourself far from the crowd.

I personally only open carry when I'm in the field and the weapon is primarily for defense against 4 legged predators and slippery slidey things...(I hate slippery slidey things)...if I'm more concerned about 2 legged predators, personally I will always carry concealed. A snake or 4 legged predator has no cognitive abilities to process that I'm armed, a threat and need to be taken out first. A 2 legged predator has those abilities and I can't read minds. People seem to forget that alot of criminals have no fear - look at the perp that shot the 3 cops on the domestic dispute this week and killed the woman officer on her first day. I don't want anyone knowing I'm armed or pose a threat until/unless I need them to know.

The other reason I personally won't open carry - I personally believe it can escalate a situation. For me to use deadly force I need to believe that I'm in imminent danger of deadly force being used against me or my loved ones. Someone taking my car, TV, money etc. doesn't fit that situation. Someone carrying out those activities and seeing that I'm armed - could escalate what would be a snatch and grab and not worth me taking a life, to a situation where I have to.

Yes I understand that there are situations where a perp would see that you are armed and not execute the snatch and grab in the first place - so it's a balancing act that every individual has to make their own decisions. I do support others right to open carry, I just won't do it myself.

Lastly, I wouldn't want some slimy attorney to paint me as some sort of wild west wanna be carrying a gun for all the world to see just so I can use it kind of guy..you know they will try that or some variation of it.

My .02

Sounds like an opportunity for those well versed in the subject could offer training or write articles in how to make that call.

That's an excellent point. I'm sure there is such training but it doesn't come with the 4 hour course for CHL carry. I had my CHL for a number of years when I lived in Tulsa. I was lazy and didn't qualify here after it expired. I only recently have gone thru the process to obtain it again. Due to the change from 10 hours to 4 hours of class time, they only mentioned OC in passing. I was appalled at the number of people in the class who not only have never shot a gun before, they actually had to rent one for the class because they still didn't have one! Just as with my qualification course in Tulsa I shot a perfect score - just make sure you don't count the 3 holes in my target from the neighbor lady next to me. It's another topic completely but the idea of some of those people openly carrying is frightening!

Earl, you have a great comment about the CHL class. I just took mine over also. Most of thr people that were shooting had NO idea of the operations, recoil, loading of clip, etc. It was scary to say the least. I didn't feel the class was much better.
If I was walking an area at night or day a concealed weapon carried in a fanny pack or pocket would be my vote, jmo.

Not to play devil's advocate, but how does carrying a concealed weapon decrease your perceived vulnerability to an attacker? Doesn't it make you appear as much an attractive target as the unarmed person? Shouldn't the end goal be to deter an attack altogether so that all the potential negatives in having to fight off an attack are negated?

There is a theory that the reason why deer flee with their tales up is to show visible evidence to a prey animal they are healthy and not worth the chase. If so, it would be the same as signaling to the coyote, you would be better served to find another deer that's worth your time and effort.

Also, military history is full of incidents where a pending attack was averted as a result of perceived strength, even when it did not exist.

My thoughts exactly. In the situation you originally put forth the idea would be to actively discourage an attack. It doesn't replace awareness and vigilance, it just means you become a very unattractive target of opportunity.

Texas Dan and Tehachapi, the point is valid and it could be a realistic scenario that happens. But so too can a perp just putting a bullet into your head because you are the first target since he knows that you are a threat and armed. It's a personal decision. Myself I'd fear the 2nd scenario happening more than I do the first. You are thinking that the perp is going to have fear and act rational - that's often not the case.

I don't disagree, but in that scenario i doubt if carrying concealed or open would make a difference.

X-2 yes sir.

From reading this thread I have drawn two conclusions.

1- Texas Dan, you and I are extremely close neighbors.

2- That people from a different area do not grasp that simply finding a different place to walk is not a solution.

I'm reminded of a meme on Facebook a year or two ago with an overhead picture of the Katy freeway at its widest point, which I think is 18 or 20 lanes. It was a friend that lives in Childress that posted the pic/meme and one of her small town friends commented that she would "take the back roads" instead. I politely told her there aren't "back roads" unless you want to drive 75 miles out of the city.

Its threads like this that make me want to open carry. if all the criminals are after me then its safer for everyone else.

Threads like these are nothing but speculation on what a bad person is thinking, and what they might do. Yet, have I seen anyone chime in that has had to draw their pistol, in public, and defend a life.

Their lawyers have probably told them to make no public comment one way or another.

You probably know and/or have law enforcement officers in your family. Many of them have had to draw their pistols in public - mostly of course while on duty and are carrying openly. However, to a man (and woman) most of them also carry when they are off duty - and they carry concealed. I would think it is a valid and appropriate question - If open carry is ideal, why do police departments not encourage their off duty officers to carry openly?

Interesting discussion.

I grew up surrounded by criminals. They do not choose armed victims. They want to strike and get away clean as quickly as possible. If this wasn't the case, don't you think we would see numerous cases of open carry being exploited by criminals in the media? Of course we would, they would love any excuse to take away our gun rights.

I find it interesting that LEOs equate what they are taught to the public as well. If you want to catch a criminal then of course you would be better off carrying concealed. The whole point of police officers and bank guards openly carrying is to discourage criminals from acting out their intentions.

Dan, if it were my wife I would tell her to open carry. But I would also warn her to not let the fact that she is doing so lead her to be less aware or cautious of potential harm by others around her.

At least one well-known study found this to be true, that criminals fear the gun carrying civilian more than an LEO.

Link

Long Story short:
I was lost in Dallas, coming from out West to pick up a friend at the V.A. I stopped at a gas station in Oak Cliff fo get directions. I was in my F250 crew cab, kids in back seat. Jumped out of truck to speak to a man at gas pump. This left the other 3 doors locked. A Kid (looked to be 17 ish) tried to carjack/steal my pickup, with my kids in it by trying to enter the passenger front door. I was standing at front driver side speaking to a gentleman about directions when folks stated yelling at me to alert me to what was going on ( I was getting directions and my diesel was loud). They young man destroyed the door handle pulling on it and continued to do so until threated with deadly force.

I did pull my weapon and thankfully he fled the scene. Police were called and I was chastised by a local crowd for having a weapon on the property. ( Early days of CHL)

Police looked at CHL and thanked me for not shooting the young man. Told me to have a nice day.

Left out a bunch of details, but that's the meat of it. I am still thankful that no one was hurt.

Based on the discussion, it seems the question is what impact does open or concealed carry have on a person's vulnerability in becoming a victim.

By definition, vulnerability is "the state of being open to injury, or appearing as if you are." If we follow this definition, open carry would make you appear less vulnerable to a potential attacker who sees you. But I can also see where vulnerability as seen by the attacker might increase your chances of being attacked when caught in a robbery. So then, it would appear best to open carry in those situations where you feel most vulnerable, and when you are less likely to be caught in the middle of an attack. The idea here is to make it clear BEFORE an attack, that you are armed and ready to defend yourself. You should conceal in those places, such as banks or other businesses, where you might be caught in the middle of a robbery. Otherwise, a concealed handgun does nothing to make you, or those near you, appear less vulnerable.

There's one. Thanks for sharing.

I'm in the position to let everyone do what they think is best. Open carry, or conceal carry, your call as a law abiding citizen. I've got lots of friends that are LE, and have asked their stance on what I should do. Every one if them told me to conceal, be the grey man, maintain situational awareness, stand up straight, and don't look like a weakling. That's what I do. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable open carrying in an urban environment. But if I were on a walking trail, in a park, I would feel more comfortable since there are less people around. In a convenience store I don't want the extra attention of open carrying.

Again, to each their own. I'm not going to try to convince someone to carry open or concealed, except for my wife. I am in charge of her after all.

It's called situational awareness. It is every bit as important to survival as the weapon you are packing. I have been in this job for many years and have yet to kill anyone. I have had my service weapon (S&W 66, S&S 686, Glock, Mossberg, HK MP-5, M4) in many an ear though. It is not fun and it is not a pleasant feeling to be a second away from shooting someone. However, without a doubt I can pull that trigger to save the life of another or myself. I also practice my craft where I place the odds of survival in my favor to where I don't have to take the life of another human being. That requires years of reading people and situations. I am very glad I live in a state where we have a choice to open carry, conceal carry or not carry at all. To be sure that gun is not your first line of defense. You had better be thinking and use that brain.

Dan, I couldn't get that link to open but I'm sure it is the same study (from the 1980s?) that you have referred to before. I guess I don't understand why you keep asking the the open carry question. If you, your wife or anyone else on this board wishes to open carry and are legal to do so, why question it? Just do it.

I have yet to open carry and feel the topic warrants good and useful discussion before I do.

Now that we've hit most of the "what if's", I'm sure there are others like me who are interested in hearing more examples where CHL holders found themselves having to display and/or use their handgun, or when they felt carrying a visible handgun made an impact on a given situation.

In my instance, the scumbag would have never seen the gun had I been carrying openly as he approached from the opossing side of the vehicle. The mere sight of the weapon didn't stop him either. I repeated commanded him to stop what he was doing. After what seemed like an eternity, he actually dropped to the ground, made about 3 rolls, got on his feet and exited.

The entire time, the thought of "How am I going to explain this guys brains splattered all over the truck to my kids" kept rolling through my head.

I don't know if he would have seen the weapon before hand if would have tried it.

I do know that immediately after the threat was gone, I reholstered and coverd up. I was then met by a group of about 20 people who were angry and was told by the station manager that auto theft was common there. Happened all the time and how I was a bad person for pointing a firearm at the guy. I was very happy when the police arrived and hope to never be put in that situation again.

There's little doubt, at least in my mind, those 20 people would have reacted much differently had you appeared unarmed.

Yes, there is a tolerance for crime within certain communities that leaves you scratching your head when realize these same areas suffer from high crime rates.

Open or concealed, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. Just carry any way you are comfortable. Both have pros and cons real or imagined.

Nearly every department requires off duty LEO to carry concealed.

As for your second question, I would ask: Why do LEO carry openly when on duty?

But more importantly, we can not (or at least should not) compare the needs/tactics of LEO to those of the public, or in anyway to point to them as the 'correct' way to carry.

Each person must decide that for themselves.

I'm an old Jeff Cooper situational awareness guy, White/yellow/orange/red. I'm always surprised by how many people are completely and totally unaware of their surroundings when i'm out and about.

Like the women I often see walking with ear buds in both ears. A guy could easily slip up behind them and they would never hear him.