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Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA

Posted By: Buzzsaw

Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 10:35 PM

I was just thinking. It seems you can spend under $500 and get a Basic rifle which will shoot 1 MOA, or you can spend another $4,500+ and shoot .5 MOA.....

HUMMMMMM confused2
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 10:59 PM

$500 in rifle and a competent hand loader can (not always) but can get .5 MOA.
Posted By: Brother in-law

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 10:59 PM

You been drinking? Your math and shopping list is off grin
Posted By: pertnear

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 11:04 PM

Your statement is true, but some basic $500 out of the box rifles shoot .5 MOA as is. Add a good bedding job to that basic rifle & you can usually get .5 MOA no problem. Cost do it yourself $25 to $100 for the 'smithy.

JIMHO...
Posted By: Cleric

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 11:33 PM

If Moa is your only measure of rifle... Sure
Posted By: Judd

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 11:41 PM

I'd be willing to bet most of those $4,500 rifles will shoot a lot smaller than .5.

Also, how much fun is buying a rifle off the shelf? Think of all these gunsmiths trying to feed their families. I look at it as my civic duty to do my part. wink
Posted By: Regular Guy

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 11:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Cleric
If Moa is your only measure of rifle... Sure


This^. Sure, you can expect most bolt guns to shoot 1 moa or better with the right ammo- and accuracy is #1- but you still get what you pay for. The remington 750 woodsmaster is very appealing to me. I would expect maybe 2 moa with factory ammo, and there are more accurate and reliable autoloaders for the money, but then there is the handling, craftsmanship, and style...
Posted By: Pig_Popper

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/05/15 11:53 PM

Different strokes for different folks - spend what you can and make it work for you.

practice makes. Perfect.
Posted By: Buzzsaw

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 12:14 AM

ya'll are getting it, all great responses .
Posted By: 10ring

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 12:18 AM

Many high dollar rifles are nothing more than a "look at what I got tool" being shot by "tools" that couldn't hit .5 moa with a laser pointer at 5 yds from their desk chair. High dollar equipment as we know doesn't make a person a shooter.
Posted By: TDK

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 12:45 AM

Well duh. That being said if you can afford a high end rifle you can afford lots of ammo and lessons. Let's face it, with enough dedication and money the majority of people could shoot well. The results of Fireman's lessons prove with proper fundamentals shooting well isn't unachievable.
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:02 AM

^^Thank you, sir^^

The least expensive rifle I have had on the range was a Savage Axis .308, shooting Chad's bulk match ammo. We learned the best the rifle/ ammo could do was about 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" MOA at 100 yards. Well, my big steel targets are 2 MOA, so off we went to 800 yards, and all of them got hit, more than once by a $289.00 rifle. Would a $2k + rifle have shot better? Maybe, but that's not what he brought and no way am I going to tell someone their rifle isn't good enough. Lets find out what it can do, by taking the shooter out of the equation.

The $1k Leupold MK 4 sitting on top sure did help though peep
Posted By: BOBO the Clown

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:06 AM

This is my rifle their are others similar but this one is mine
Posted By: tth_40

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:14 AM

Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
$500 in rifle and a competent hand loader can (not always) but can get .5 MOA.


Bingo. cheers

Been doing it this way for a long time.
Posted By: Regular Guy

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:29 AM

Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
^^Thank you, sir^^

The least expensive rifle I have had on the range was a Savage Axis .308, shooting Chad's bulk match ammo. We learned the best the rifle/ ammo could do was about 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" MOA at 100 yards. Well, my big steel targets are 2 MOA, so off we went to 800 yards, and all of them got hit, more than once by a $289.00 rifle. Would a $2k + rifle have shot better? Maybe, but that's not what he brought and no way am I going to tell someone their rifle isn't good enough. Lets find out what it can do, by taking the shooter out of the equation.

The $1k Leupold MK 4 sitting on top sure did help though peep


Looking back in history at dudes like Simo Hayha, you have to think about it. A 2-3 moa rifle in the hands of a competent shooter is a whole lot better than a .5 moa gun in the hands of someone that is not. I know a guy that can connect on a man sized silhouette at 1k yards more often than not, with just a m4 service rifle and an acog. A standard m4 that's probably over cleaned and worn out, with a bad crown from the use of a blank firing adaptor. Oh, and regular old M855 ball.
Posted By: GLC

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:36 AM

I have two Savages, one that is a 7mm08 and a 300 win mag both that were re-barreled by me. I have $1500 or less in each gun without scope. One shoots .25 and the other shoots .150 moa. I believe the most important thing I did though was to start reloading.
Posted By: P_102

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:49 AM

I picked up a 'Dicks special' 700 ADL IN .243 for somewhere around $300. Took it to a smith for another $300 and then gave it to Chad to work his magic, he shot .5 with 2 different loads (I believe he posted a pic here some time ago). Unfortunately what others say about the shooter is correct...only .5 for me is with 4 shots, that awful 5th is my nemesis! P_102
Posted By: patriot07

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 02:10 AM

I've got a $400 rifle and $300 scope that can shoot .5 MOA with factory match ammo (federal 168 grain SMK).

I think the difference is that you have to get a little lucky to find a shooter that's that good from the factory in the lower end price range. Sometimes you do...sometimes you don't. The $5,000 rifles will shoot that good or the rifle builder will tweak it til it does.
Posted By: DStroud

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 12:29 PM

2000.00 seems cheap for a 100% improvement. Honest to goodness .5 MOA are sure a pleasure to play with.
Posted By: JTPinTX

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 12:54 PM

There are 1/2 MOA rifles, and 1/2 MOA shooters. I have several of the former, but for me the latter can vary from day to day. Some days I can't do anything wrong, some days there is LOTS of room for improvement!
Posted By: ZK-315

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:41 PM

$650 gun, $100 scope, 4 shots at 100 yards = 0.467"

You don't have to have an expensive gun to shoot tight groups. Although I am building me one up

Posted By: Mfloski

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 01:49 PM

i have fought one too many factory guns that shot horribly, and have terrible triggers to mess with them. I'd rather have one or two custom pieces of work that are reliable and shoot lights out, with excellent glass and triggers, than a safe full of 300.00 rifles.
Posted By: 5 Stand Dan

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 02:05 PM

Posted By: bigjoe8565

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 03:23 PM

Remington 700 varmint .308, aftermarket trigger, aftermarket stock and hand loads equals great shooting rifle for less than a grand.
Posted By: TDK

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 05:40 PM

Another way to think of this is as you increase budget you increase the odds of getting a more accurate rifle. That's not to say a lower price rifle can't shoot, but the likelihood of that is lower mainly because of the quality control desired in mass production.
Posted By: MikeC

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 08:38 PM

When you're shooting lefty rifles the choices in calibers is limited. Therefore if you want a particular caliber that isn't offered in a factory lefty a custom is required unless you just want to settle for something else. I'm not very good at settling.
Posted By: Wburke2010

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/06/15 10:16 PM

Spending 4k on a rifle I am not buying a 1/2 moa shooter. I spent that because I got a rifle built for a purpose down to every little detail exactly how I want it, that will shoot consistently no matter the conditions. Yeah I might suck as a shooter but the rifle is built for a special purpose and you can not buy that off the shelf.

Walter
Posted By: Ritter

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 12:25 AM

I had a friend ask me to help him get drop data for a new, completely custom rifle he just had built. While we were getting his 200 yd zero dialed in he turned to me and said "I'm pretty disappointed in XXXXX(name of gunsmith). For almost $5K, this rifle doesn't shoot for s*&t!"
I asked if i could give it try. Five shots and a sub .5 MOA groups later he decided to listen to some advice about shooting position, cheek weld and trigger control.

A custom, expensive rifle allows you the possibility to shoot well, it doesn't guaranty it.
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Ritter


A custom, expensive rifle allows you the possibility to shoot well, it doesn't guaranty it.



^^Gospel^^
Posted By: vanguard

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 02:38 AM

the common trend is a sniper rifle and wanna be behind it. seems everyone forgot to hunt.
Posted By: Wburke2010

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: vanguard
the common trend is a sniper rifle and wanna be behind it. seems everyone forgot to hunt.


Not every rifle is designed to be hunting rifle.... But my custom rifle has it's share of hunting. Just because it doesn't have a wood stock and weighs more than 6 pounds doesn't mean it won't kill an animal any different.

Walter
Posted By: vanguard

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: wburke2010
Originally Posted By: vanguard
the common trend is a sniper rifle and wanna be behind it. seems everyone forgot to hunt.


Not every rifle is designed to be hunting rifle....


your words not mine
Posted By: Mike Honcho

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 03:03 AM

I think whats being missed or overlooked here is application. Now a days savage, tikka, some remmys and cz can produce 1/2 moa out the box at 100 yds.with a capable shooter and right factory ammo. Most will even do it inside 300 yds. Why guys will fork out custom money comes down to 2 reasons. They want a rifle that can shoot 1/2moa at any distance and repeatedly. 2nd having a conversation piece. For most out to 300 yds is the ideal ranges, but some like shooting from long ways out 600+ yds. Most good factory rifles even with right ammo arent consistent enough. That throws anothrr variable into a complex equation. Same as glass. Do guys need a march, s&b, mark 6, nf scope to ring steel at 1k absoluetly not. I love my 6-18×40 nikon buckmaster and can make hits all day out to 600 yds on my ar. What makes me buy a nf or mark 4 for my 260 and 243 match type rifles is repeatibility tracking at further than 600yds. In fact for 99% of guys a mid range 2nd plane scope is more desirable than say a 1st fp nf. I prefer 2nd plane, but getting way out there i see the advantage of 1st plane. Most good production grade hunting equipment will do far more than whats needed for normal conditions, but certain applications require specialized tools.

Fwiw, a very respected and heck of a smith told me that 90% of the accuracy starts with the barrel. Thats why you see rebarreled savages with quailty custom barrels ahoot bug holes a long ways out.

Im actually experimenting with a remage rifle. Remmy action with savage type barrel nut that works with savage nut wrench. I have a 243 shilen match, 25-06 krieger, and 280ai shilen that im going to experiment with. Itll make it so that i have a quasi switch barrel. My build will be less than 2k for this setup. Had i just gone 243 it would have came in at 1k w/o glass. My research has shown this concept has produced outstanding lr rifles w/o a gunsmith.
Posted By: jeffbird

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 03:30 AM

Montana Rifle Company with handloads will produce 1/2 MOA. $1125 in stainless and synthetic, bedded and ready to go out of the box. A safer design than the pre-'64 Win M70. As usual, FJG makes some good points. Groups only matter if they consistently go where intended. Consistency takes a good rifle, good scope, good ammo, and usuallybthe winkest link is the person behind it all. I really like this set up, which makes it enjoyable to practice.

.
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: vanguard
the common trend is a sniper rifle and wanna be behind it. seems everyone forgot to hunt.


There are also plenty of people that sit in a box blind a hundred yards from a feeder that never learned how to shoot and/ or don't know their rifle system. Then they miss vitals at that distance.

Two ends of that spectrum.
Posted By: jeffbird

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 12:57 PM

Shooting proficiency is a benefit for hunting. It increases the likelihood of success and reduces the risk of wounding and the animal suffering.
Posted By: HorizonFirearms

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 04:58 PM

Originally Posted By: wburke2010
Spending 4k on a rifle I am not buying a 1/2 moa shooter. I spent that because I got a rifle built for a purpose down to every little detail exactly how I want it, that will shoot consistently no matter the conditions. Yeah I might suck as a shooter but the rifle is built for a special purpose and you can not buy that off the shelf.

Walter


Exactly, And for the guys gust getting into it, you are paying for customer service and knowledge that you are not going to get from a 299 package gun. Ever tried calling up Savage and asking them what ammo to shoot out of your exact rifle, or what scope to recommend for a mountain goat hunt, or help what to get and how to learn how to reload. There is a lot more to a custom rifle than a .5moa guarantee.
Posted By: jeffbird

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: HorizonFirearms
Originally Posted By: wburke2010
Spending 4k on a rifle I am not buying a 1/2 moa shooter. I spent that because I got a rifle built for a purpose down to every little detail exactly how I want it, that will shoot consistently no matter the conditions. Yeah I might suck as a shooter but the rifle is built for a special purpose and you can not buy that off the shelf.

Walter


Exactly, And for the guys gust getting into it, you are paying for customer service and knowledge that you are not going to get from a 299 package gun. Ever tried calling up Savage and asking them what ammo to shoot out of your exact rifle, or what scope to recommend for a mountain goat hunt, or help what to get and how to learn how to reload. There is a lot more to a custom rifle than a .5moa guarantee.


A custom will produce consistency and also durability that cannot be matched by an off the rack rifle, other than a few that are as expensive or even more so (thinking of Accuracy International in particular).

In the scheme of life, one really well built, great rifle is a good place to spend money, a real joy, and a far better expenditure than a safe full of good, but not great, ones. Bad ones just have to go and have no place at all.

Posted By: blackcoal

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 05:34 PM

Rifles are sort of like vehicles, they all should get you from Point A to Point Z. What happens in between depends on what the driver desires. In other words, it is hard to go 150 mph across a freshly plowed field the morning after a 6" snow while towing a 32' RV and transporting the ladies from the nursing home.

Carry on! rifle elmer
Posted By: Buzzsaw

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/07/15 11:02 PM

what a great thread, the OP really knows how to spark great conversation doesn't he?

It's great to know there are great shooting rifles for all of us. Whatever budget you are on, there is a rifle/scope combo for you, which can shoot lights out.

Some have the custom gun budget, some don't. then there are guys like Walter Burke who work their azz off, scrapes and swaps, till he gathers the components for a custom build. I think this is the best because he REALLY appreciates what his money and his knowledge got him. He can also drive the hell out of it.

I'm fortunate enough to have some custom , higher end toys BUT, I sure am eyeing that Ruger American in 6.5 Creed for about $400 or the sweet Montana Rifle Co, Extreme 2.

Why I have this disease, who knows but I sure do love guns and toys.

Carry-on flag
Posted By: scottfromdallas

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/08/15 01:47 AM

I have 2 Savages, 5 Ruger 77s, 1 Winchester Featherweight, 2 CZ 550s and one Kimber 84 M Select. I have them in 223, 257R, 6.5x55, 7-08, 308, 338 Federal, 350 Rem Mag and a 9.3x62. All will shoot MOA or better once I find the right handload for them. Some needed a little tweaking like bedding and trigger job. Some are more picky with what I feed it. One rifle, the stock Savage Precision Carbine in 223 will shoot .5 MOA with any bullet I feed it.

Some of the cheapest rifles with a barrel nut and funny trigger are the cheapest and the most accurate. If you reload, you tend to shoot more and it's easier to tweak things to find the right load combination.
Posted By: Regular Guy

Re: Figured it out, $2,000+ gets you .5 MOA - 10/08/15 01:51 AM

Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: vanguard
the common trend is a sniper rifle and wanna be behind it. seems everyone forgot to hunt.


There are also plenty of people that sit in a box blind a hundred yards from a feeder that never learned how to shoot and/ or don't know their rifle system. Then they miss vitals at that distance.

Two ends of that spectrum.


An acquaintance of mine, who as far as I know has hunted his whole life, does not even know how to sight in a scope or even clean his rifle. It is a nice rifle, too- a match rifle built on a mauser action. His father zeroed his rifle and cleans it for him. An no, he's not mental, or anything like that- as a matter of fact his main weekend hobby is drag racing and he works on cars all the time. I believe he just never really cared to figure it out, which seems crazy to me. He's not a kid either- 38 years old!
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