Hill Country Rifle Accuracy question...

So I have a Hill Country Rifles Harvester in .270 that I bought last year. I worked up what I thought was a good load for the rifle (still new to reloading) and at first got some groups that were about 3/4 MOA last week with an average just under 1 MOA with 3 shot groups (that was the day I tried to validate the hand load). I was happy enough with a sub MOA ave for now. Today I took it out again to finish getting the scope sighted in and was only able to produce 1 sub MOA group with an ave around 1.25 MOA over a few groups. I had this rifle borescoped a couple days ago out of curiosity to check the barrel and to get an idea of how much copper fouling I had (been shooting barnes). He said that he didn't think there was enough copper fouling question to do a copper solvent clean yet. After seeing what I perceived to be a drop in accuracy today, i'm wondering if it's time to use some copper solvent, clean it down to bare metal, and then refoul it before hunting with it. These rifles are known for pretty outstanding Accuracy and I haven't seen that the last couple trips to the range. What do you guys think? Thanks.

Could be fouling, could be the shooter, I know some days I shoot better than others. When working up a load and some other trips to the range I take a rifle of known accuracy to me and shoot a group with it telling me how I am doing that day.

I have seen some guns especially with copper bullets degrade in accuracy in 30 rounds or less.

I never thought of taking a second rifle, good idea

I always take a 2nd rifle, if for no other reason than to let the one your focused on to cool down. I'm heading to the range this morning to sight in my son's 7mm/08 but I'm taking the AR to play with in between.

Read this thread and my posts here. Matt and crew make a great rifle.

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/5394935

Yup. Your post in my other thread is why I'm considering fouling to be the problem. Only reason I wasn't sure is that when we bore scoped it there wasn't much fouling according to my friend.

I've learned over time to not trust a bore scope. I like using them for confirming a barrel is worn out with seeing the massive pits and extreme fire cracking. BTW- fire cracking is common on barrels. I've seen people or smiths say a barrel was toast because they see fire cracking. Not true.

How many foulers should it take before the gun settles in?

Depends on the barrel. My 260 needed 2-3. My 300 WM needed 5-7.

Ok sounds good. I won't expect it to settle in until after 6 rounds. I'm gonna go ahead and do the same thing to my 300wsm which I think needs it as well after this conversation. Thanks for all the help. I'll let you guys know how they shoot after a good copper removal.

Ok so here's the update from today's range trip...

I took it out with the bullets I loaded for it. The wind wasn't exactly great as it was probably averaging around 10-15 mph with some higher gusts. I didn't shoot past 100yds because of this. I shot 5 rounds that were intended as foulers...the first hit high and then the next 4 fell into a .73 MOA group which surprised me. I didn't think it would be that consistent on shots 2-5 after cleaning all the copper fouling out of the barrel. I then shot 5 more 3 shot groups. The sizes of the groups were as follows in this order... .64, .94, 1.5, .94, 1 MOA. I know this may be tough to determine with the wind the way it was today but do you guys think it's already fouled enough to clean again before confirming zero and hunting or would you wait for a calm day to go shoot a group or 2 to see how it does on that day? The load I'm shooting is 55gr of IMR 4350 and a 130gr barnes TSX. All but the last 2 groups were shot from the cheaper Caldwell sandbags and the last 2 were shot from a lead sled.

The Lead Sled could have opened those groups.

Why do you want to clean it?

I don't really want to clean it. I've just been told by ChadTRG that those Barnes can foul a barrel to the point of lost accuracy very quickly. I'm just starting to learn how all that works. I would clean it again if I thought it was getting too fouled by copper and that's what was causing the groups to start to open up...or it could've just been the inconsistency due to the wind today. I don't know just how much that wind would've affected things at 100 yds.

I've seen the wind really make a difference. Because of this, I try to shoot early in the morning when I can, even though it's pretty chilly in the mornings, this time of year. Most times, I get an hour or two of relative calm in the early morning. This tells me the most about what the gun is doing.

Shooting in windy conditions is good too, but what that tells you the most about is your ability to dope the wind. Once I know what the gun will do in a calm, then I'm ready to see what I can do with it under varying wind conditions.

I clean my guns until there's no evidence of carbon or copper between each shooting session. Some of them do better after the first five shot group, and some are OK right off the bat with a clean barrel. For a hunting rifle, I pay the most attention to what the first three shots out of a squeaky-clean (not oily) barrel will do.

One rifle that I used to treasure was a Browning A-Bolt in .300 Win mag that would consistently put the first three shots out of a cold, clean barrel into 1/2" at 100 yards, using Federal premium 180's. The rifle was utterly reliable in this respect for as long as I owned it. - So much so that I never bothered buying dies for it.

My feeling is that starting off with a clean gun will give you consistent results in the field. - You'll know what to expect for the first shot, and for the next two that hopefully won't have to follow.

Having the barrel in varying stages of being crudded-up would not engender confidence for me, I'd never know whether or not it just got a big blob of copper in there, etc..

A lot of shooters swear by keeping cleaning to a minimum, or by the practice of doing a few fouling shots through a clean barrel before a hunt. A lot of this is really about what gives you confidence, and I feel most confident with a clean barrel.

If you feel confident, you'll do a lot better than what you would do otherwise.

Not much at 100. Sorry I missed that they were Barnes bullets. You need to take good notes. Where is P.O.I on shot 1 through 20, ect until you see accuracy really start to decline. Then I still wouldn't totally remove all fouling. Clean, shoot and take notes again. You'll most likely see a pattern and you'll know right where to clean in the round count.

I have no confidence in a perfectly clean barrel because none of mine have shown me that they are consistent until they get fouled.

Fireman,

When you clean and then refoul the barrel, do you know exactly how many rounds each gun takes before it's reliable? Do you leave the scope set during the foulings and expect the POI to return to where it was before cleaning the gun?

Mine tend to get better at 10 rounds and then start stacking them again between 10 and 20. Mu cleaning happens when it quits shooting where it should. Keep in mind I rarely shoot 100 yard paper. The last several months I start at 500-800 cold bore. But when the steel is clean white paint I can read groups even that far out. I know when it starts stringing vertically.

If I clean I don't move the scope turret. I know the first shot should be within .1 Mil of zero. If I clean and I shoot to refoul it may print somewhere off of the former zero. I blame that on the clean barrel and keep shootong until it starts to group like it should, which should be on the last zero pre-cleaning.

Thanks fireman. That makes sense.

Would something like an accubond be better for less fouling? I love the terminal performance of the barnes but the fouling is becoming irritating.

You're welcome.

I would think an Accubond would foul about like the A-max and Berger VLDs I shoot. Hundreds of rounds before I clean on the 6.5 Creed. The 7 Rem Mag and 180 Berger has told me it likes to be cleaned around 100 rounds. Both cut rifled barrels though.

Gotcha. What does a cut rifle barrel mean? Custom?

Yes. You buy a barrel blank in 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, .308 ect in the twist rate you want, then have a gunsmith chamber and thread the shank, crown and thread the muzzle if needed.

That's what I was thinking you meant. I'm considering having my 300wsm rebarreled as it's really been irritating me.

Into what? Sticking with the same cartridge but with a new barrel? I remember Chad telling of how the 300 WSM can be picky on what it wants to shoot.

Idk...my initial though was another 300wsm. I figured my options would be limited. I'm still learning when it comes to what rifle smithing offers and which caliber actions are compatible with other calibers.