My homemade reverse electrolysis barrel cleaning system.

I've tried all the different ammonia products to remover copper fouling but still
had copper streaks in the barrel on the bottom grooves of my rifle barreling.
I even soaked the barrel overnight with a copper removing product that didn't
work as claimed. Decided to build my own reverse electrolysis system. Worked like
a charm. Removed ALL the copper fouling.
[img:center][/img]

Note the copper on the steel rod:



My barrel came out shiny new after a 30 minute soak in the reverse electrolysis solution.

Here's a video on how to build your own system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISB3o2qLvd4

I've always been tempted to do that, just never followed though on it. Maybe you've given me just enough inspiration to do it.

May have to try this. Ive been cleaning on a Finnish 91 and it gets better every time I soak and clean but never really clean.

reverse electrolysis barrel cleaning systems work and do it with less effort than all other methods I have tried

Very nice. I can see from the pictures that your technique is evolving since the video. I may try this some time.

and I am ok with that

but is it needed?

That video was something I just found on Youtube. It's not mine. But the pics are from my shop setup.
I must point out it's important to attach the negative lead to the steel rod and positive lead to the
barrel. This allows the flow of electricity to go from the barrel to the steel rod. I have seen some videos
on Youtube where they set up the opposite electric flow and this will not remove the copper.

I used it to clean collectable carpenter tools many yrs ago, the draw back that I found was that the metal rust would set it in if you let the metal unprotected.

Just curious, why would you want to remove all the copper from a barrel?

My thoughts as well.

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2694284/1

For the same reason he gave you before....Is this gonna get re-hashed?

So, if he's already posted this before, and got answers, why are we posting this again. It makes real good sense to me!

X2

Last time he was looking into it and asked for thoughts. This time he is just posting it, perhaps to give others some info.

I thought Ground Hog Day was a great movie! I think Bill Murray should get an Oscar! LMAO!

Y'all are a friendly bunch, ain't ya?

sometimes the best friends you have will tell you your wrong.

he's wrong.

Posted again cause I just cleaned out the barrel again since the last post on this topic.
I was happy with the results that I had to share again.
Sorry for the re-post to those who seem offended by that. I'm not going to debate again with all the haters out there.
If any of you out there in THF subscribe to Field & Stream magazine...checkout my
letter to gun editor David Petzal asking him about cleaning out your rifle barrel in
the December issue. I think he answers your question Chad, Dave, and Fireman..My letter was from Keller, TX. Bill.

LOL...ain't that the truth. Shorthair and I pheasant hunted
a few years back and he told me he stopped posting on THF
because of all the "friendly" responses.
For me..."honey badger don't care" attitude works best.

Your rifle, your business. I'm not passing judgment.

I read Petzel often. Yes, he is very experienced and very knowledgeable, however I've entertained sending him an e-mail or letter refuting some things he wrote. He too, is wrong several times a year. I've been tempted to ask him when he would be in Texas again, and invite him out so I could prove it.

Chad, Dave and I will get awfully upset if someone removed all of the copper from our barrels. Remove carbon, sure, but not the copper. I hate brand new, clean barrels, they don't shoot as well. My cleaning regime for my 260 Rem is every 400 rounds, and it's just to remove carbon. After that it'll take 20 rounds before it starts shooting its best again.

Again, your rifle, your business. I was just curious as to why you were doing this.

Agreed...my rifle, my business. I get tighter groupings with a clean barrel and
reloads to answer your question. The electrolysis removes the carbon fouling also.
On some of my rifles that sat in the gun safe with copper fouling I've noted the
copper has oxidized and turn a slight green color in the barrel grooves (is that a good thing? IDK).
I don't remove the copper after every shooting event....I do a general barrel cleaning as we all do with
brushes, patches, and oil. This was only the second time I've done reverse electrolysis after I noted the copper streaks in the barrel. I did a re-post only to inform, however, I see some THF'ers don't agree and that's fine by me. Regarding Dave Petzal....I think the man is well qualified to give his opinion on rifles due to his background and experiences. As for him being wrong on a subject......maybe so...but who am I to pass judgement on his experience.

If all rifle barrels were cut rifled, air gauged, hand lapped, etc. etc, then there might be a universal outlook metal fouling isn't a problem. It shouldn't be so hard to understand that all barrels are not created equal, and some barrels will accumulate enough metal fouling to degrade accuracy. I dunno though...maybe all of us who have shot Partitions out of sporter weight rifles using scopes with conventional reticles at animals less than 500 yards away for decades just don't know a damned thing.

No sir, you know a ton. Just leaning on what has happened to me. Again, I was just curious as to why this is needed. I've got several plain vanilla barrels that I don't remove copper from either. To each their own.

Believe what you like about your own rifles and treat them accordingly, they're yours and you should know. Have a little respect the rest of us...lots of us have rifles which we know need a good cleaning a little more frequently. You come in here runnin your yap like you're PO Ackley, Carlos Hathcock, and Elmer Keith all rolled up in one and it gets really old.

Wow!

Aggressive attitudes do as well.

If patching and brushing the barrel doesn't remove enough of the copper fouling to bring the gun back into shooting order there is something wrong - maybe the barrel is fire-cracked and it's tearing up the jackets depositing a ton of copper, maybe something else but it can be as right as rain when I, Jason or anyone else says that sticking a steel rod into a barrel and using a long-term ammonia solution w/ electrolysis will damage a barrel.

You have long-term ammonia exposure which will etch and pit the barrel, that's why you don't let sweets sit to long if you even us it.

You have a steel barrel inside your steel barrel - steel on steel is never good so unless you have a mechanism to keep steel off steel you risk damaging the barrel even more, leading to more copper fouling if you leave a burr inside.....

If patching and/or brushing isn't enough I'd look for the root cause a treat that, not the symptom which is whats being treated here.

I think you guys need to go out to my club and teach the benchrest guys not to clean their rifles...those dumbasses drop hundreds of cleaning patches with blue residue on them all over the ground during matches. I am sure that our member Mike Stinnett will cut his world record group in half after being taught how to take care of a rifle.

Does Mike stick a steel rod down his barrel to clean it or does he use patches and/or brushes? I would bet you that he doesn't stick a steel rod down the barrel and that he would likely say that doing so is a bad idea.....

So again, we are back to the original point that a steel rod down the barrel is a bad idea.

I'd also venture to guess, and please ask mike the next time you see him, if he gets *ALL* of the copper out or if he just does a thorough cleaning with a patch and/or brush. I'd again guess he's likely tell you he does a thorough job with patches and brushes.

no one here has said not to clean a rifle.

Copper fouling usually gets thick in my rifle barrel after about a half dozen shooting sessions. Really noticeable in the barrel with streaks. The 1/8th inch steel rod is kept off the barrel by using painter's tape or else you wouldn't get good electric flow. The electrolyte solution is only kept in the barrel for maximum 30 minutes. The barrel comes out really clean. Afterwards, I use Barrel Blaster to neutralize any solution and then Rem oil the barrel. I'm an aircraft mechanic so I have a set of ball gauges and micrometers. I have measured the bore with both and have not noted any degradation in bore diameter. As for patching and brushing the barrel...I haven't found a product that works good to remove the copper completely.

What kind of "either-or" choice is that???

The electrolytic cleaning setup commercially available uses o-rings on the rod to keep it centered in the bore, and that's what I'd use if I decide to use this. I am pretty darned sure I can manage to insert the rod into the bore without damaging it.

As to the benchresters' techniques...I am pretty sure they're using coated rods. And they are removing as much metal fouling as they can with rods and patches. If it was practical to use an electrolytic system at the bench, I'd bet you'd see it.

If you subscribe to the idea of breaking in a barrel, then you must believe that a new bore benefits from being burnished by the passage of the bullet over bare metal. If you leave metal fouling in the bore then the bullet just burnishes metal fouling and you never get the bore smoothed out.

If you're shooting a premium, hand-lapped barrel then metal fouling should be minimal. Lots of production barrels are not near that smooth and accumulate metal fouling rapidly, and the worse it gets the worse it gets until accuracy is gone. Some shooters report that accuracy degrades noticeably by about thirty rounds. Stories of rifles being sold or traded because they are believed to be "shot out" when they're only excessively metal fouled are common.

The bottom line is that more often a bullet passes down a perfectly clean bore, the sooner it will be as smooth as it can get. The smoother it is the longer you can shoot it without fouling building to the point that accuracy is degraded.

This is still not something I would do - but much better than I thought, I'll admit I envisioned you doing this for a much longer duration.

Pretty much the options in this thread. They (benchrest and hopefully everyone in genral) all use coated, one piece rods for this exact reason - to keep steel off of steel.

I don't believe in 'breaking in' a barrel either; but I will say that I only use cut rifled barrels that have been hand lapped. I'll shoot 10 rounds, clean it and that is my "break-in". We are getting into ford/chevy territory here since I can find 100 people to say breaking in a barrel is foolish (including somemfgr's) and you can do the same.

We do agree that a smooth bore is key to keeping fouling to a minimum but I also believe that some copper in the bore filling in any minor defects is a benefit. I clean my rifles, I don't sterilize them and they all shoot a hell of allot better than I can drive them.

The electronic solution just introduces to many risks vs. the reward since I can get a barrel clean enough with traditional methods.

The OP may consider lapping the barrel with something like JB Bore Right to again, treat the problem and not the symptom

Exactly. Your perspective is narrow and what you see as being effective is not effective for everyone.



That's exactly what shooting a bullet down a perfectly clean bore is supposed to do. Lapping may be faster or more effective, but maybe not in some instances. Whatever the case, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

No Benchrest shooters don't use coated rods,if they have any experience at all, they use stainless steel!!!!! But don't take my word for it, it's easy to look up!!!!!
just call Shilen Barrels !

Aside from black powder weapons, I dont know that I have ever cleaned a gun...

As hard as I try I cannot recall just exactly what type of cleaning rods I have seen the benchresters use, except I'm pretty danged sure none were using 3-piece Outers aluminum rods. Looking around at Benchrestcentral.com, though, it seems that the opinions are pretty well divided between stainless and coated rods. Personally, I use one-piece stainless steel and I wipe it down every time it comes back out of the bore. I figure it's more immune to abrasive debris getting imbedded into it, but I also figure the bad stuff doesn't have to be imbedded in the rod to cause harm.

What you have is 2 different disciplines of shooting here- typical hunting/long range/tactical shooters and your benchrest shooters. Each has their own way of shooting and cleaning.

Let's take the benchrest guys. They want a super clean barrel with nothing in the barrel to build up and foul in the barrel. They may shoot 5 rounds, and clean the snot out of the barrel. Then shoot a few more rounds, and be done with that barrel. They will even unscrew the barrel from the action, and screw on a new barrel between heats, and shoot-clean, shoot-clean that barrel. With these super clean barrels you WILL get very high extreme spreads (ES). That is, variations in the speed of the bullet. This shoot-clean method produces very tight groups for the big heavy truck axle barrels benchresters use. They also only shoot 100 and 200 yards.

Now, look at the hunting/long range/tactical shooters. There's no way to clean the rifle every 5 rounds in the field. So, you clean the inside of the barrel, then foul the barrel in. Fouling the barrel in means you shoot the rifle to season the inside of the barrel and get it consistent from round to round. It can take 3-10 rounds for this to happen, depending on a few factors. During the fouling in process, the common extreme spreads will be in the 40 to 70 fps. Once the barrel is fouled in, with good ammo, you can see an ES of 20 fps or better. You will also see your groups get more consistent, i.e, tighter. My fouling shots will ALWAYS have shots not go exactly where I want them to go. Once the barrel gets fouled in, the rifle will become much more consistent in group size and with low ES. At some point, you will notice groups opening up, due to the barrel being too dirty from build up. My 260 Rem was at ~150 rounds. My 300 WM was at about 80-90 rounds. I could solve the problem with a few (meaning 1-3) wet patches on a jag with Butch's bore shine, followed up by several dry patches. That would get enough shots til my next cleaning. What I did NOT want to do is clean it so much that I lost all the copper build up (or fouling) to effect my consistency.

So, if this was a benchrest site, I think this topic might be relevant. Since this is a hunting site, and guys here shoot their rifles, I think this topic is unrelevant.

Going back to my original question 2 years ago- What is the difference in your accuracy from a super clean barrel to a fouled in barrel (with the same ammo- not switching to different loads)? What I'm asking is- show me the first 5 shot group at 100 yards from this clean barrel method, then show me a 5 shot group after 20 rounds have been fired (on a cool barrel, not hot barrel)? I'm willing to prove this that the fouled in group will shoot better, and provide tighter ES. I would be willing to meet you at the gun range to prove this! And yes, I'm very serious! This would be a great friendly challenge, and probably pretty fun to do. If you let me know what caliber, I can even bring the ammo. Say, loser pays for the ammo, maybe! I'm game!

Im glad I went in a different direction...You guys would drive me effin crazy!

It's rare for a rifle to shoot to the same point of impact when the bore is squeaky clean, but it's not unheard of. I have one rifle that shoots the same whether fouled or clean, cold or warmed. I know that it's unusual and that barrels usually need to be fouled to some extent to shoot consistently. Benchrest rifles are no exception and that's one reason spotter rounds can be fired during matches.

I'll say this one more time...what works for handlapped, cut rifled barrels just won't work for lots of mass produced barrels. So if you had a rifle that shoots fine for 30 rounds but then accuracy goes to pot, then how clean would you want to get it?

again, just as clean as patching it out will get it. If that is not enough there is a problem that needs to be treated, not the symptom.

LOL! I need to use this icon more often!!

Good grief folks. I am glad the original poster takes the "honey badger don't care" attitude works best.

I have an electrolysis cleaning system that I use sometimes and those systems work better at removing copper fouling than any other I have used. there are times I want a totally clean barrel like if switching to or from solid all copper bullets to gilding metal jacketed bullets or the unusual rifle that loves to be totally clean.

I have seen and owned rifles that the cleaner the bore the better to the point where the best groups are with a non-fouled bore, so exceptions do exist. One of the 2 I have owned which love no copper in he barrel now gets a diet of reloads using Hodgdon CFE223 to keep copper fouling at bay and accuracy maxed.

Other rifles like some copper fouling, but I have not seen or owned a barrel yet that does not need some if not all copper fouling removed eventually.

If one thinks the cleaning system they use is the only solution for ever rifle and ever shooter is correct then they should take off the blinders and perhaps something just might be learned. there are no one size fits all solutions.

All benchrest shooters use one piece coated rods ???? You need to get out more and see the world.

what is your cleaning routine once you do finally do a thorough cleaning?

Buddy got a new Howa the other day. Came with break in instructions about using an ammonia based cleaner every shot for the first 10 or 20 rounds. I have a break in process I've used for 25 years but idk if it makes a difference or not. A friend who has passed on now had many more guns than I, shot way more matches than I and had many more years of experience than I. That said he would get disgusted when he saw how coppered up my hunting rifle barrel was. But I always filled tags and had pics to show off. For what he loved to do his methods worked. For what I do my methods work. I may look at this method as it does seem more efficient than a brush and solvent. However, I don't clean a barrel that well until accuracy declines. As long as I can knock down a yote at 300 yards with my rifle I am happy. If you need to shoot one hole groups at 100 yards to make you happy do what you gotta do with your gun. I promise that piece of paper with a hole in it, or that dead coyote, won't give a rip how we get to that point.