I was able to start on my after-deer season quail lease on Monday in the Panhandle. I turned my 18 month old female setter out and she was wild as a march hare. She did not have any manners nor course whatsoever. I had put her down back in December and it was the same song. I had seen enough. She was self hunting in any direction she wanted to go, not listening and just sailing through the country. This is the same pup that was somewhat of a prodigy last season as she literally broke herself on birds in the field and we killed a bunch of them over her before she was 8 months old. Well one swing she came across the front running with the wind and I was able to nail her pretty hard with the e-collar. I got her stopped. Let's just say I hurt her feelings pretty good, but I got control of her. I snapped a 20 foot check cord on her and let her drag that for the rest of the round. She stayed right out front and listened at that point She ended up pointing me a covey and a couple of singles. Tuesday morning I teed her up with the checkcord and e-collar and turned her loose. We made a 30 minute round and she was always on the front at 150 - 200 yards but listening. When I turned, she went with me. She had 4 perfectly handled covey finds with long holds and birds killed on each flush. I am telling you all this to reiterate the beauty of the checkcord when you need to grind a young dog down a little. After they pull this around a while and get tired, they start listening better. Plus, when you get a pup into a lot of birds, they start wanting to be with you because pointing and shooting birds becomes fun for them. They want to stay close to the action. I will now keep the checkcord on her until she tells me it is time to take it off. She will need to show me that she is listening, watching what direction I am going and adjusting, not playing grabazz in the field. She definitely has all the tools to be great, but we are just putting the polish on her now. The checkcord is the best finishing tool there is along with a properly used e-collar.

my 200 yard dog finds a fraction of the birds as my big runners do. As long as the dog is holding birds til I get there it's not self hunting

The whole idea of having a pointer is to cover ground so you don't have to. May as well have a flusher

blanked, she will run as big as I let her go . My whole point was that she has to go with you and to the front. My dogs "pointed" 44 coveys in a day and a half and I was on foot where typically I am on my dog buggy. I am hunting birds, not dogs. Any time you want to hook up with some of my "flushers", you let me know. Every time you pick yours up, mine will be right there or beyond. BTW, my dogs don't flush. They are broke wing to shot.

This

IMO big runners are good when Coveys are spread out, but I want to be able to keep control and close dogs when birds are thick. I don't want my dogs on point at 500yds or more, while I'm busting birds going to them. Also check cord is a good tool, but sore feet and tired dogs learn more, in my experience. NorthTx I'm with you also, on the fact I'm a bird hunter not a show dog trainer.

But, to the front. There's a 10:00 to 2:00 saying for a reason.

I'm having the same issue with my 12 mo. Pup. Constantly wanting to go behind, and hunt on her own. I put the checkcord on her this morning, it seemed to help a little. I have to keep bumping her around with the collar. She still wants to get way off. If she would hold til I got there I'd let her range more. More training is nessecary.

Are you hunting her by herself or with other dogs? On foot or from a buggy? Has she been on a lot of birds or just a few?

12 months let the pup be a pup. Let her learn to hunt and point birds on her own. Forget the cc and e collar no discipine

Also a well bred pointer will range out as far as needed to find birds with the the right cover on there own. When bird numbers are plentiful with good cover my big range dogs will not range very far

I'm running her mostly alone out of buggy, bit I will get out and walk occasionally. I tried running her with my Britt a couple times, but just turns into a dog race. Pups probably pointed about 15 coveys

A 12 month old birddog pup needs to be finding the front and starting to handle. I am not a believer that any pup can train themselves. I mentioned that my pup broke herself in the field last year but we still continued with the formal training in the spring. A young dog needs to learn when they have erred and then get that knowledge and positive reinforcement with the repetition of the regimen. Otherwise, they typically start some bad habits at an older age making it much harder to correct. They don't realize that they are doing it wrong.

I concur

If the Britt is going to the front and finding birds, let her go with him. You just need some broke finds and a lot of them. If you can get the Britt pointed, grab the CC of the pup and lead her up pretty close to the Britt and make her hold while you still control the rope. Don't be too fast to flush and make her hold and pay attention to the situation. Only shoot after both dogs have handled everything right. Have you introduced the pup to whoa breaking yet?

You cannot teach a dogs desire to hunt and point . That's part of the breeding. The dog has to learn that on his own without you interfering.

Formal training and the dogs natural ability ( pointing and desire to hunt ) are 2 different things

I mostly agree. I have a nine year old pointer that still gets out of pocket and behind more than I like.

You are right! We agree. But you can refine the instincts and genetics he has. A dog's natural instinct is to chase and kill. That goes all the way back to the wolf and mongrel. Look what training has done for the pointing breeds, retrieving breeds, coon dogs, etc. They will now point, fetch, and tree. When I bird hunt, I want a well-trained dog that does things right...a thinking dog. I am too old to go out for a high speed, out of control, dog rodeo every weekend. That ship has sailed for me,

Looks as if we are getting back to the years old argument about nature or nurture.

A hunter that is telling the dog how far to range, how far to cast, when to turn, when to whoa on birds, stay at 10 and 2 o clock is not developing a thinking dog IMO. That dog is always going to be looking at you for directions.

As stated earlier if that is your style of hunting a flusher , retriever is a better choice


All that control telling the dog what to do also takes away the style in the point IMO
When you see the intensity in the point is so great the dogs eye balls are bulging out, that's style. With a 12:00 tail

Friend, you have it all figured out. How about I send my next puppy to you and you give him your holistic approach to dog handling? I won't have to pay you anything but feed, since you don't train. All Natural remember. Why don't you get your intensity meter and come measure the dogs I am running now. It would be pegged and with a 12:00 tail. I have not been doing this but 50 years. I have seen a thing or two in the field. I don't think you can show me anything new, but you can try.

Better yet. Meet me in Idaho next November. Bring your dogs and camper. We will brag about our dogs each nite over a beer

You need to spend a few hours with a good field trial handler. He will put down some of the best dogs in the country and each of them will stay to the front and though they run big they will cross the front often enough to show a judge who they are hunting for. When he comes to a sharp turn on the course he may call the dog in and heel him through a gate. A good horseback shooting dog may cast to 300 or 500 yards but must stay in contact with the handler, an allage dog may sail to 600 or 700 and has more leeway to cover country but stil has to show and finish with the handler. In both type dogs they can't be gone for more than a third of the stake. Control is a key component to winning, they can't be gone, and they can't win if they don't finish. They must be steady to wing and shot, again control over the dog. They, the handlers do all this with out taking any thing out of the bold, hard driving dogs.

These are the dogs that are bred to produce the fine animals we hunt over. And if you poll all the folks on this board you may find that most want all the qualities that make a champion but want to see him once in a while, want to thrill as they watch him slam into a point. Want him to back and retrieve. They want to be able to send him to likely cover not hope he went by it on his way to 800 yards. The best quail dogs I've hunted over in the last 50 years all had a large measure of control. They new where the front was, they new who they were hunting for. All these things are important but maybe the most is seeing the dog apply his trade. I've hunted for over 50 years and have owned some good ones and seen some better than mine and all had been trained and had some control instilled and yet pointed with fire and style. Blew up as we walked to them till they looked like a statue. This is why we hunt, field trial, and just scratch their ears by the fire. Lots of ways to get there but the end product shows to the front, points with style, comes when called, finishes the hunt with you and show the nose and smarts of those we bred to get them. The whole package comes from hours in the field, lots of training and patience. Lots of ways to get there but to the bird hunter the finished product is easy to describe.

Last post on this from me. If a dog is trained for field trials and hunted on wild birds. Or you have a fully broke dog.. and hunt wild birds ,not allowed to relocate, not allowed to break at the shot..... your really narrowing your wild bird hunting opportunities down to one or 2 types of birds. Relying on good numbers every year for texas bobwhites for the life of the dog is knocking down your wild bird hunting even more

And when it is time to come in, you just find the end of it, say "here", and reel them in. I also agree with adding in the e-collar alongside the check cord, so the two are acting as one. It is also good to work on the range you like best. Some argue that long is better, some argue short. Pointer or retriever, I think you should set a goal for what you want and work toward it. Thanks for sharing.

Personally know of a few dogs that didn't make it back from the hunt or training alive from the owner leaving a check cord on the dog. The cord ended up getting stuck on something and the dogs choked to death. It's pretty easy for a dog to get hung up pulling a check cord

Not if you use a worn out lariat rope. I agree with most check cords will get tangled but lariat ropes with no knots in them will not tangle.