If you can only buy one, which is it? I am wanting to start doing some hog hunting at night but not sure which I want to get. I am thinking thermal. Also, what is a good entry level unit for either? I want the best bang for buck I can get.

If you want to get into thermal and need the best bang for your buck, the new Pulsar APEX scopes may be the best entry into the market. They are not out just yet, but should be soon and will be offered around $3000.

The only problem with getting a rifle scope, however, is that you have to do a lot of searching/looking with your rifle which many feel is an unsafe practice. If you agree, then you may want to go with a less expensive thermal handheld and then an inexpensive rifle scope such as a digital scope for actual shooting (not searching).

Maybe some salient questions at this time might be, how much can you spend? How far do you plan on shooting? What sort of environment will you be hunting?

You can get into NV a lot cheaper than thermal. You will get great results from both. What you have to decide is whether the gun will be a dedicated night time hunting rifle only.

Thermal is horrible to try and use during the day. It just won't work. But if you have a rifle that you only want to shoot at night that's perfect. I own thermal and 2 NV and much prefer the NV. I have the ATN PS28-CGT. It fits on the front of your traditional scope and turns it into a NV scope. No need to sight it in or anything. You can then use it on any rifle that you own instead of dedicating it to a particular gun. Runs about $2000.00.

Capt Craig, you say it fits on the front of a regular scope. I need more info. Does it fit onto the scope itself or does it have to be mounted on a rail in front of the scope?

You can do it either way. I prefer to mount directly on my scope for both bolt action and AR. No extended rail system is necessary

There is a cup that you slide over the front of the scope and tighten. it securely holds the add-on up to 308. If you are shooting anything bigger a rail would be helpful but not required

This just isn't so. I don't know what you have, but I've used a lot of different thermal products during the day and they all work well.

All modalities have strengths and weaknesses, but in general, on most days, thermal is excellent.

For the OP, your budget determines your options. If you can make it at least $2,500.00, many folks opt for a handheld thermal spotter and digital scope.

I own the ATN ThOR color thermal. When the weather is warm the trees and ground and animals all put out a almost identical heat signature. In winter on cold days you can pick up an ok body temp off an animal in the daytime.

It is not nearly as accurate as shooting a traditional scope in the daytime. You say you have used a lot of Thermals, which one do you own? In the daytime, especially warmer days the only way to sight in a thermal is to shoot at bottles of frozen water, you can't use a standard temp/air temp item it won't give you a unique temp signature that stands out. We use the water turned on it's side looking at the base of the bottle to get an approx 3" circle in order to establish a fairly tight zero.

I can promise you that no thermal will do in the daytime what a traditional scope can for accuracy.

At night with cooler ambient air temps and depending on really cool weather, the thermal will pick up heat signatures at 1000 yards depending on the size of the object. At 300 yards you can generally tell what the animal is.

The night vision is best at 150 yards or less and needs either ambient light or a feeder light or a IR light mounted on the scope to assist in brightening the target.

I spend 3 or 4 nights a week every week in the field hunting or guiding a client. My use of these items is extensive in the last four years.

you can hunt just fine with thermal during day, just switch to white hot or black hot

ATN PS28 that clips on the scope didn't seem to work well for one of my customers;
scope falls off after second shot, he was shooting a Winchester 70 Stealth .308
Too much recoil for the slippery plastic clamp. He is buying a Ruger AR-10, Zeiss 4x12
to use with his clip on

you can pick out 'hot' targets hiding behind trees/leaves that normal night vision can't.
I shot a hog this way that my night vision was not able to pick up. So, if you have about
$3000+ to spend, get a Thermal.

If the PS fell off, he didn't have it adjust correctly. We have used it up to 7mm mag without it falling off. The various size rings have to be chosen correctly. The clamp is metal with a plastic liner ring that fits between the mount and the scope to prevent scratches.

Cabo, which thermal scope do you own?

I would say depending on the terrain you hunt...

Wide open fields vs wooded/thick

We run guided hunts on a wide variety of terrain. We have both but thermal is king for all night hunting, you don't have to shoot with the thermal scoped gun, just use it for spotting.

We use a thermal scope (Thor 336) as a hand held spotting scope but it's zeroed in for a gun sitting in my gun rack on the back of the ATV, that way we can clip it on and shoot or let clients shoot with another weapon/scope setup and/or light (Depending on preference)

Thermal is no good in high humidity or rain, it still works but it can be really bad.

I don't use my thermal (or NV) during the day at all, we have several other weapons with scopes/eotechs etc for daytime hunting. I think the quality is pretty poor during the day.

Most of our weapons are 223 or 300BLK but we do have a few 308s. 5 of them are ARs. Some I have a zeroed scope or eotech AND a zeroed Thermal/NV so I can swap for day vs night hunts.

-Matt

ATN Thor 3x 30mm , 4.5x 50mm

I know what you mean. I could barely make out the hogs here at 4:30 PM earlier this week...



This hog was taken right at sundown. You can't hardly see it.



The first hog here was also just about invisible at two hours before sundown.



Despite having such handicaps, I have managed to get a few hogs. I guess I just got lucky.

"When the weather is warm the trees and ground and animals all put out a almost identical heat signature. In winter on cold days you can pick up an ok body temp off an animal in the daytime."

Thanks Double, that proved my point perfectly. Thermal is horrible in the day time (as I said) when the trees and ground and animals all share nearly the same temp. Which is why I said it is better when temps are cooler. Your video was taken in February and it was cool enough that you were wearing a heavy jacket. The video was not taken in summer.

Well then, your statement that thermal is horrible is daytime is just plain wrong. It isn't a day/night issue, now is it? When you make sweepingly absolutely statements, they are usually wrong, as in this case.

I've worked on Aircraft thermal night vision for almost 29 years. With lower grade or older systems FLIR/thermal inversion can cause a problem. However this is normally only twice a day. Once when the temperatures are coming up and once when they are dropping. Typically early in the morning and after sunset. Now if your looking at foliage ie tress where all you see is leaves, naturally the leaves will all be the same temperature. The picture will looked washed out. It's possible that heavy haired/furry animals will have the same surface temperature but not likely. Double Naught Spy's statement that thermal is horrible in daytime is just plain wrong would be correct. You just have to be aware of FLIR/thermal inversion and it's effects and you'll be fine. Perhaps if you change the angle in which you're looking at an area you'll see more stuff. ie get a little elevation. FLIR can't see through a physical barrier. Glass is a physical barrier by the way. The same as a fog is.

Thermal if you can afford.

As far as I know, all the Thors are color, no reason to deliniate.



Currently, I own a 640, 5X, and as spotters an ATN OTS 6X and Pulsar HD38. I have used pretty much all of the FLIR RS series. Not a fan....and have used an Armasight Zeus. Otherwise, I have looked through just about everything on the market. I have an IR Defense 640, 2.5X on order, but holding until some of the firmware is corrected.



So it is bad on a "warm" day and just OK on a cold day. If so, why would anybody buy one...particularly at the price? I mean, really. Sounds like you struggle with it. I don't. Hot rocks and wood on the ground seldom sprout legs and move. I have sat in a blind watching a tree line on a hot fall Texas day. Couldn't see a thing with day optics. Flipped the thermal spotter up and clear as a bell a line of deer are walking down a trail just inside the tree line. Without thermal I would never have known they were there.




But that wasn't the original point was it? You said thermal couldn't be used during the day at all which is simply untrue, period. A good day optic can take animals at very long ranges. Well beyond what 90% of hunters are capable of...but you aren't using that optic with your Gen CGT clip on either....are you? So, in all honesty I'd bet most of your shots are within 100 yards and that very few exceed 200 yards. All within the range of a decent thermal, certainly a 640, 5X. I do only head shots and can do it with thermal with no problem at those ranges....day or night.



Dear Lord... Wrong again. Frozen bottles of water are not the only way. Ever try hand warmers? They work great, are cheap and store very nicely for long periods. No muss, no fuss. A fairly tight group? 3 inches? Dang son.



A huge difference is that because night vision is limited on contrast and you will miss quite a lot that you see with no problem with thermal...particularly with a CGT product. The specs on that look like a lower end Gen II, if that. Many folks use thermal spotters to find the animals in the first place. Many of us have experienced hunting with people that have only night vision and they can't spot the animal we plainly see with thermal.

All the modalities have strengths and weaknesses. Weighing those, give me thermal.



No one else hunts regularly on this hunting site....just you.

To the OP...again...your budget will determine what you can do. A thermal spotter is an absolute game changer.

I guess I didn't realize how expensive these units run. I was thinking like $500 max, but obviously I need to do some research. Thermal seems like it would be more useful in my situation. Probably no shots longer than 150 yards, mostly wooded area with a few meadows. We have feeders setup also.

Well then, I would suggest the Sightmark Photon XT digital scope...and add an aftermarket IR when you save a little more.

I can save however much is necessary for a decent setup. I will probably use it maybe 10 times per year so I don't need the best or most advanced setup. I just want to be able to see them at night and within 100 yards of the feeder.

If you can only afford one the decision should be based on what your hunting area is. If you have long open fields to scan get a thermal. If you are scanning areas less than 300 yards get a good nv. You get what you pay for and ask the dealer if the scope can handle the rifle you are shooting. PM me if you want the number to a guy I consider an expert based on his years of experience and arsenal.

What aftermarket IR would you suggest he buy?

(Ok, it's for me, didn't want to hijack his thread) I want something better than my ATN ir 850

I like the UNV 20 IR, but there are others that do well also. The XT really lights up with a good IR...

What does adding the IR light do? Does it just make the image inside the scope brighter without alerting the hogs by using a regular flashlight?