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protien? #6120735 01/05/16 11:57 PM
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have always fed corn, thinking about protein, what brand?


hold on Newt, we got a runaway
Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6120924 01/06/16 01:24 AM
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Purina is a popular choice



Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6120930 01/06/16 01:28 AM
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I have fed Lyssy & Eckels for the last 12 yrs now, but it is not available in all areas. If not then I would choose Sportsman Choice from Acco or a really good regional mill protein close to your area. Cheap feed does not always equate to good feed.


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Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6121638 01/06/16 03:31 PM
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I use Antlemax by Purina because it is available locally and is fresh. Check your suppliers for what is available and go from there. Cheap is not always cheap.


Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6121684 01/06/16 03:50 PM
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I use Lyssy and Eckels now that they have a store in Llano. Before that we used Record Rack as that was the best 20% we could get. Check out the trace mineral package of what's available in your area and pick the best.

I have noticed the deer seem to "like" the L&E better. They definitely take it down faster.

Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6121709 01/06/16 04:03 PM
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We feed sportsman's choice, would feed L&E if it was readily available to us.


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Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6122028 01/06/16 06:23 PM
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we use purina and have used Lyssy - both quality feeds


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Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6122102 01/06/16 07:03 PM
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Mostly used Record Rack as Mason Feed Store has it but have also used purina with no issues.

Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6122123 01/06/16 07:16 PM
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Has anyone used Red Chain Feeds from Gorman Milling? Their 20% is peanut based and under $10/bag. I've been thinking about trying them but haven't seen the complete analysis tag.

Re: protien? [Re: ThreePeppers] #6122146 01/06/16 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: ThreePeppers
Has anyone used Red Chain Feeds from Gorman Milling? Their 20% is peanut based and under $10/bag. I've been thinking about trying them but haven't seen the complete analysis tag.


You won't be dissapointed...best stuff I have fed yet

Re: protien? [Re: Accutrigger33] #6122535 01/06/16 10:12 PM
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Good to know.

Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6123152 01/07/16 03:30 AM
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Have always used the freshest 20% that was available in my area. Does the deer prefer one brand over another or do the eat whatever if put out?

Re: protien? [Re: Accutrigger33] #6123187 01/07/16 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: Accutrigger33
Originally Posted By: ThreePeppers
Has anyone used Red Chain Feeds from Gorman Milling? Their 20% is peanut based and under $10/bag. I've been thinking about trying them but haven't seen the complete analysis tag.


You won't be dissapointed...best stuff I have fed yet


I Second Red Chain. Stuff smells like peanut butter and the deer hit it harder than any other brand I have tried. The mineral content is good and includes probiotics and prebiotics for improved nutrient absorption and a healthy digestive system.

Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6123217 01/07/16 03:53 AM
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I'll add that during good range conditions, 20% is overkill. Anything they eat over 16% is just pooped out.

Re: protien? [Re: Big_Ag] #6123331 01/07/16 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: Big_Ag
I'll add that during good range conditions, 20% is overkill. Anything they eat over 16% is just pooped out.


VERY common misconception. This was propagated by a CONTROLLED study of PENNED deer who were fed NOTHING BUT CONTROLLED FEED. The number that was PUBLISHED and often quoted is that deer only can use/enable/process about 16% protein in their TOTAL feed.

The reality on a wild, LF ranch - the deer are going to be eating a LOT more than just the feed you put out. Who knows what protein/nutritional value it has. This is why they make deer feed in high protein percentage than 16%, otherwise it would be useless.

If your natural browse on your ranch is nutritionally poor, you can benefit from feed a higher percentage protein. VERY few natural browse on ranches in Texas have a 16% protein content. And those that do, don't need to feed protein anyway.

If you are breeding deer, and have breeding/holding pens, and are controlling their feed totally - then yes, don't buy/use more than 16%. However, if you are supplementally feeding wild deer in a free range environment where What, How much, and nutritional content is unknown - you very well can benefit from higher percentage.

For those who disagree with me - think about this. You have some feed that is 10% and some feed that is 16%. You mix 5 pounds of each - what the gross protein percentage of that 10 pounds of feed. If you said anything but 13%, then you need to check your math.

Now go out to your ranch. If your natural browse is 10% and you supplement feed 16% - and a deer eats the same about of each - what is the gross percentage of protein consumed? Again, only 13%.

Of course this is NOT quite accurate because a deer could eat natural one day and pellets the next, it won't be evenly mixed or processed by the deer's gut - but you get the idea.

The point is that buying/using feeds with 20%, 25%, or even 30% protein can - in some circumstance - very appropriate. That's why they make it.

For example, on one of my leases I use a timed Lamco trough feeder and drop a small amount of protein - I run mixed of feed from 26% to 30% because I know (through cam activity, etc.) that the deer are only eating a few handfuls of this feed per day, and the rest of what they are eating is nutritionally poor (usually).

Last edited by John Humbert; 01/07/16 06:31 AM.
Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6123332 01/07/16 06:40 AM
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For reference supporting my point (From TPWD and QDMA):
Dr. Varner feels that at times the protein content in supplemental feeds fed during antler growth and lactation should be 20 percent. He states “I agree that the total protein level in the diet does not need to be over 16 percent. A higher level will not hurt the deer, it is just more protein than they can effectively utilize. The 20 percent protein feed is not designed to be fed as the total diet. It is a supplement to the natural diet during periods of nutritional stress such as antler development or late stages of gestation and lactation. My research (Barnes and Varner, 1989) has shown that during certain times of the year or during drought, the forage that deer are consuming may be as low as 6 to 7 percent digestible protein. Unfortunately, many times there are periods when bucks are growing antlers and does are lactating. During this time a 20 percent protein supplement can be used effectively to raise the protein in the total diet to an acceptable level. It is much like feeding your cows 41 percent protein cottonseed cake during the winter to raise the protein level in the cow’s diet to a level that will maintain acceptable production. In addition, when a buck is growing antlers, I would much rather feed him a little more than he needs rather than short him. Once antler development is complete then you can feed the 16 percent protein feed.”
Minerals most important to a deer’s body and antler growth are calcium and phosphorus. Most Texas range lands are adequate in calcium but deficient in phosphorus. If supplemental feed is made available to white-tailed deer it should have an adequate supply of calcium and particularly phosphorus. Many trace mineral are important to deer but natural forage usually contains sufficient amounts for body and antler growth.

Re: protien? [Re: John Humbert] #6123338 01/07/16 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: John Humbert
For reference supporting my point (From TPWD and QDMA):
Dr. Varner feels that at times the protein content in supplemental feeds fed during antler growth and lactation should be 20 percent. He states “I agree that the total protein level in the diet does not need to be over 16 percent. A higher level will not hurt the deer, it is just more protein than they can effectively utilize. The 20 percent protein feed is not designed to be fed as the total diet. It is a supplement to the natural diet during periods of nutritional stress such as antler development or late stages of gestation and lactation. My research (Barnes and Varner, 1989) has shown that during certain times of the year or during drought, the forage that deer are consuming may be as low as 6 to 7 percent digestible protein. Unfortunately, many times there are periods when bucks are growing antlers and does are lactating. During this time a 20 percent protein supplement can be used effectively to raise the protein in the total diet to an acceptable level. It is much like feeding your cows 41 percent protein cottonseed cake during the winter to raise the protein level in the cow’s diet to a level that will maintain acceptable production. In addition, when a buck is growing antlers, I would much rather feed him a little more than he needs rather than short him. Once antler development is complete then you can feed the 16 percent protein feed.”
Minerals most important to a deer’s body and antler growth are calcium and phosphorus. Most Texas range lands are adequate in calcium but deficient in phosphorus. If supplemental feed is made available to white-tailed deer it should have an adequate supply of calcium and particularly phosphorus. Many trace mineral are important to deer but natural forage usually contains sufficient amounts for body and antler growth.


Bingo. happy3

Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6123510 01/07/16 02:23 PM
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I agree with most of what you say John, but when range conditions are good, the deer are typically eating natural forage that is higher than 16% protein. I absolutely feed 20% when conditions warrant helping increase the average protein percentage consumed. My point was that it is not necessary to feed 20% when there is good natural forage. One thing I will disagree with you on is using a timed feeder for protein. Limiting the amount of feed limits the consumption to all your deer. The first at the table or more dominant deer may get their fill, but what about the rest. If you are truly committed to feeding protein to maximize all of your deer, it should be fed free choice so that all of your deer have access to as much as they want when they want it.

Re: protien? [Re: Big_Ag] #6123567 01/07/16 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Big_Ag
I agree with most of what you say John, but when range conditions are good, the deer are typically eating natural forage that is higher than 16% protein. I absolutely feed 20% when conditions warrant helping increase the average protein percentage consumed. My point was that it is not necessary to feed 20% when there is good natural forage. One thing I will disagree with you on is using a timed feeder for protein. Limiting the amount of feed limits the consumption to all your deer. The first at the table or more dominant deer may get their fill, but what about the rest. If you are truly committed to feeding protein to maximize all of your deer, it should be fed free choice so that all of your deer have access to as much as they want when they want it.


WHAT IF:

1.) I currently have a free choice feeder set-up that holds approx. 500 lbs, it gets emptied every 2 1/2 to 3 weeks by whitetail, and at best I make it to the lease once a month to refill. (many times it goes 2-3 weeks without feed)

2.) I plan to set-up a Lamco 1500 feeder, drop 30 lbs a day, and will be able to keep protein in it year round.

Which option is better?

Last edited by titan2232; 01/07/16 03:00 PM.


Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6123591 01/07/16 03:04 PM
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Also the Lamco has 21 foot of trough space. Seems more deer could eat from it at once



Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6123622 01/07/16 03:20 PM
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IME with 16% vs 20% the deer ate more 16% feed per day than the 20%. I think the bucks looked better year to year on the 20% than on the 16%. I would never feed down % wise in a wet year. I would want the deer to eat the same amount of feed in wet years as dry years(it is supposed to be a supplement). The protein is important since an antler is 44% protein, but the mineral/trace mineral/vitamin package is what is just as important.
In South Texas deer browse will average 19% annually, why would I want to feed down in % with a deer feed? In many areas of the Hill Country browse will average 12% at best. Also when do we see our best antler growth and fawn reproduction years? When it rains in Spring and into the Summer. With rain we get new growth. That new growth is the highest % of protein. There are forbs in South Texas that will be upper 30% range on protein value in wet seasons. When we have those years we see large numbers of huge bucks taken on ranches that do not feed anything. If higher % of protein is not important then why do we see swings in huge numbers of bigger bucks in wet years? Ranches that are feeding will have very high numbers of great bucks in every age class. Also in many areas of the state, bucks do not eat very long at a feeder. IIRC on TC pics in South Texas I would see bucks eating for 2 minutes on average at a feeder then they left. If that buck is eating that short of a time I want him consuming a protein with 20% vs 16%(25% more value) that usually has a higher content mineral package.
A company like Lyssy & Eckels has done 1,000's of forage samples in South Texas with their On Target Program to know what the protein value, minerals, trace minerals and vitamins are in the preferred browse plants on ranches. They blend their feeds based off these samples. Those sample values can change from one ranch to the next on the same browse plant. They do many in the spring and then follow up some times in seasons past spring. They thing adjust their feeds annually in the late winter going into the spring.
Minerals/trace minerals/vitamins are the key. The type of mineral used is very important also. Chelated and sulfate minerals are used in feeds. Some minerals can be used by the deer while another will not. Ratios of minerals are very important as well as combinations of chelated/sulfates on certain types.
L/E has also been adding for the past 2 yrs probiotics and essential oils for rumen health and better protein/mineral absorption in some of their rations. A healthy rumen equates to a healthy deer. They also use 11 different sources of protein in the feeds. Those different types of protein are used at different times in the rumen during the fermentation curve. Some proteins are used at first and then at the end of the curve in a typical feed while in L/E Feeds the multiple sources of protein are used from the first bite till they are absorbed in the lower gut. No bite of protein pellet is wasted(ie. flows out butt onto the ground as waste). That is where the nutrients are carried into the bloodstream to build an antler, muscle or produce milk. Feeds that are made with 4 or 5 sources of protein will not be able to allow a deer to do that without that great rainfall spring and summer. Feeds that do not have great mineral packages will not be able to get those minerals into the blood stream.
The ranches that are feeding 20% protein year round are the ranches producing their best deer year in and year out no matter what the rainfall conditions are. The ranches I have seen that are using the essential oils in their feeds the past 2 years are showing noticeable annual positive gains in antler quality. I talked to one LF guy using the 20% feed with essential oils and he just could not believe the difference it made on all the bucks the first year.


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Re: protien? [Re: Big_Ag] #6123632 01/07/16 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Big_Ag
I agree with most of what you say John, but when range conditions are good, the deer are typically eating natural forage that is higher than 16% protein. I absolutely feed 20% when conditions warrant helping increase the average protein percentage consumed. My point was that it is not necessary to feed 20% when there is good natural forage. One thing I will disagree with you on is using a timed feeder for protein. Limiting the amount of feed limits the consumption to all your deer. The first at the table or more dominant deer may get their fill, but what about the rest. If you are truly committed to feeding protein to maximize all of your deer, it should be fed free choice so that all of your deer have access to as much as they want when they want it.

I will disagree with the red highlight part. If your deer numbers are in CC then limiting feed will benefit all the deer on the ranch. If you feed 30 lbs of feed per day those deer eating that 30 lbs will not be eating that amount of native browse in the daily diet. If that is high quality forage then that amount of forage is available every day for the rest of the herd to eat. So yes the rest of the herd can benefit from that amount of feed. Another aspect of timed feeding is if you pic the correct times to feed you can feed mainly bucks only. Mature bucks will feed from around 11 till 4 at night. If you feed at those times you can concentrate your feed money on the segment of the herd you are targeting. I have seen LF ranches in South Texas do just this and consistently raise good bucks every year with limited feeding. You will not make deer nocturnal feeding this way contrary to popular belief. Look at feeding times under free choice conditions on deer in South Texas, they are at dark till daylight in the hot months of late spring, summer and into fall. You really can't change that. If those bucks bed on your land then they will feed at those times anyway. So feed them at those times.


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Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6124396 01/07/16 09:43 PM
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We'll just have to agree to disagree on the timed feeders. I understand where you are coming from, but I have a different mindset. I don't target a specific segment of the deer herd. I want both does and bucks, young and old on the protein. As I think you will agree, even with the best range conditions, most of Texas lacks the optimum amount of minerals in the natural forage thus the right protein pellet will supplement those additional nutrients. I want the does as healthy as the bucks in order to have the healthiest fawns possible. I also want the youngsters with as much access to the feed as the more mature dominant deer. I agree that most deer feed at night during the warm months, but I can't predict how many deer will show up at a given feeder on a given day and how much they each want to eat that day, so I make it available free choice.

Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6124404 01/07/16 09:51 PM
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TC pics of the number of deer (different deer) accessing your free choice and figuring out how long your protein last should give you a pretty good idea how much protein to drop a day with the timed feeder. My drop tube on my free choice feeder is clear so my game camera captures the exact day my feeder is empty. Simple math I'd think



Re: protien? [Re: colt45-90] #6124407 01/07/16 09:54 PM
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I do not think timed feeders is the best way to get the best return on your investment. I feed free choice 24/7/365. I am like you I want all deer eating when they need it not when I want them to. The next fawn crop on the ground is the most important one for the future. That is what I want being raised on feed. I want a doe raised on feed raising her fawns on feed. That doe having been raised on feed is just as important as what buck's headgear looks like that is breeding her IMO. That healthy doe is going to stand a better chase of raising the kind of buck fawn I want in the future. Like I said before minerals are very important, so I agree with you on that. Not all minerals packages in feeds are the same. Adding the correct minerals to a feed ration is expensive. Minerals/trace minerals/vitamins are the most costly parts of a feed if you price them out by the lb. eek A few years back to the extra cost per ton of feed to take .90% phosphorous level to 1.10% level in feed added about $20/ton cost to the ration. Some feed companies do not add the best minerals available to keep costs down. Many do not ratio minerals correctly either, to much of one mineral can negate the usage of another essential mineral.


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