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Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. #6483563 10/06/16 02:49 PM
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Matagorda Mud Pig Offline OP
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So my little 18 month old yellow lab is well started, can get singles fine, but was abused as a pup and its extremely soft. Any level of stimulus from the E-collar and she yelps.

She's also smart, in that when she has the e-collar on, she acts perfectly. 100% obedience. But when it's off, she chooses when she wants to obey me. Specifically, about 20% of the time when I tell her to come, she doesnt.

My two questions:

1) Should I use the collar despite her extreme level of softness? I'd like to use the collar for the next steps in her training, but the vibration setting has no effect and level one makes her yelp, bite her tongue and generally freak out. I've tested it on myself and its not even close to painful. Have any of you had this experience? What should I do?

2) What can I do to get her to obey with the same consistency when the collar is off as when the collar is on?

thanks in advance guys




Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6483643 10/06/16 03:35 PM
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It's doesn't take much at all for a dog to be collar wise.

Also stop giving commands you cannot enforce. This is creating a bad habit.

Yes I would still use it. You could also get a collar that vibrates or used a tone instead of a shock.

Put the collar on at random times without shocking the dog. On and off. I would do this for at least a few weeks without ever using it. I would still train the dog and even train with it on but don't shock the dog.

What training program are you following for obedience and the shock collar??

Last edited by MS1454; 10/06/16 03:36 PM.

Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6483646 10/06/16 03:38 PM
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I had a similar problem with my wife ------------- I suggest leave the collar off,,, when she wont come, go to her with the collar in your hand and shock the crap out of her. Teach her that you are the boss ----right now she is teaching you that she is the boss-----NOT to punish her encourages her to disobey and reinforces her thought that she can do whatever she wants.

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6483649 10/06/16 03:40 PM
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One thing to remember about a collar,,,,,,,,, they punish,,, they dont teach------------
just read MS's advice,,,, it is all good.

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: MS1454] #6483653 10/06/16 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: MS1454
It's doesn't take much at all for a dog to be collar wise.

What training program are you following for obedience and the shock collar??


Dokkens




Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6483665 10/06/16 03:50 PM
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Yep, that's why I'm perplexed. Collar on and I say "Here" and she runs as hard as she can to me. Collar off, I say "here" and its only about 80% responsive and without the "vigor" if that makes since.

I took her on a hunt without the collar and she lazily took her time returning to me. Or didn't until she was ready.

The rest of teal season she wore her collar and was appropriate.




Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6483725 10/06/16 04:32 PM
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What collar are we talking about? I ask because the SportDog has two different levels. You have to program the collar for the lower level. The higher level my dog would yipe on 1 in a fairly intense situation so I knew it was to hot for her. The Tritronics G3 I had previous to the SportDog was much like the lower setting on the SportDog.

You have to make the consequence not worth continuing the action...and you have to be consistent about it. Example...I stick my head out the back door and yell "here" and both our dogs come. Wife sticks her head out the back down and yells "here" and both dogs look at her as if they are flipping her off. If the dogs don't come for me I go get them and make the trip back to the house uncomfortable (not hurting them) and if they don't come for her she just complains or continues to say "here". Consistency is the key here...my 2 cents.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Judd] #6483779 10/06/16 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Judd
What collar are we talking about? I ask because the SportDog has two different levels. You have to program the collar for the lower level. The higher level my dog would yipe on 1 in a fairly intense situation so I knew it was to hot for her. The Tritronics G3 I had previous to the SportDog was much like the lower setting on the SportDog.

You have to make the consequence not worth continuing the action...and you have to be consistent about it. Example...I stick my head out the back door and yell "here" and both our dogs come. Wife sticks her head out the back down and yells "here" and both dogs look at her as if they are flipping her off. If the dogs don't come for me I go get them and make the trip back to the house uncomfortable (not hurting them) and if they don't come for her she just complains or continues to say "here". Consistency is the key here...my 2 cents.
Bingo


Bobby Barnett

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6483797 10/06/16 05:15 PM
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Consistency is key but I think a different approach is needed with a more sensitive dog.


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6483803 10/06/16 05:18 PM
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SportDog. mine has the high and low level (1-10 each level) I have it on the lowest level. The vibrate/sound has no effect on her.




Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: dune2218] #6484072 10/06/16 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: dune2218
I had a similar problem with my wife ------------- I suggest leave the collar off,,, when she wont come, go to her with the collar in your hand and shock the crap out of her. Teach her that you are the boss ----right now she is teaching you that she is the boss-----NOT to punish her encourages her to disobey and reinforces her thought that she can do whatever she wants.


Dumbest advise I've ever heard.^^^

Do not punish her for disobeying....find a way to make sure she can't disobey. If that means putting a 75 foot rope on her than do that.

Also....e-collars are not used for just punishment. You are right about not teaching with the collar but they can also be used to reinforce a command they are already doing.

#1 Never take her out without the collar. With enough reps and time she will eventually be conditioned to give the desired response but until then do not give a command you can't enforce. You can also put a long lead on to enforce commands. I would also suggest possibly getting a Dogtra collar that you can turn way down. Level 1 on a Dogtra arc or 1900s is literally nothing.

I would follow Hillmann's material with a dog like yours because it involves only very light stim and little to no actual corrections with the collar just reinforcement. Go back to the basics and build her confidence and make it fun and then add in some very very light nicks on the "here" command with the Dogtra collar that you can turn way way down.



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Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6484118 10/06/16 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: AndrewOSpencer
SportDog. mine has the high and low level (1-10 each level) I have it on the lowest level. The vibrate/sound has no effect on her.




You have to condition the dog to it sounds/sensation of the vibrate. Of course they have no effect yet, that's for you to teach. You should try to join a local retriever club to get some help. Only so much can be done through a forum.


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: dune2218] #6484337 10/06/16 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: dune2218
One thing to remember about a collar,,,,,,,,, they punish,,, they dont teach------------
just read MS's advice,,,, it is all good.


I disagree with the comment on collar training.

Robby

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6484624 10/07/16 02:28 AM
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Judd is right on point however there are a couple of other things to consider. Call me, I can help.


Kevin Buckley
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Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: dune2218] #6484803 10/07/16 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: dune2218
One thing to remember about a collar,,,,,,,,, they punish,,, they dont teach------------
just read MS's advice,,,, it is all good.


Have you been drinkin?

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6488464 10/10/16 01:59 AM
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1) The e-collar is just a tool and is no shortcut to properly training "here". Regarding its use, if you have vocalization then it is too hot. If you still get vocalization on the lowest setting then you should not use it.

2) I would suggest going back to the basics. Start with a lead, pinch collar and make sure your dog is perfect on recall within reach. Every time she comes on "here", make a huge deal about it and praise her big time.

Once she is perfect there, then put her on a 25 foot check cord and repeat all of this. Let her out and run around for a while with the check cord. Make sure she is distracted into her own business, go find the end of the check cord, say "here" and reel here in. Make sure you praise her big time.

The check cord should become part of her life until she is absolutely perfect. Repeat the recall training with lots of distractions. I have done months with a check cord.

If you can use the collar WITHOUT vocalization then add the e-collar to your check cord training. Use a nick on the collar at the same time you reel here in using the check cord.

Lastly, put your track shoes on. If your dog does not come to you, go get her.


Regards,

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Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Sweese] #6488652 10/10/16 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Sweese
1) The e-collar is just a tool and is no shortcut to properly training "here". Regarding its use, if you have vocalization then it is too hot. If you still get vocalization on the lowest setting then you should not use it.

2) I would suggest going back to the basics. Start with a lead, pinch collar and make sure your dog is perfect on recall within reach. Every time she comes on "here", make a huge deal about it and praise her big time.

Once she is perfect there, then put her on a 25 foot check cord and repeat all of this. Let her out and run around for a while with the check cord. Make sure she is distracted into her own business, go find the end of the check cord, say "here" and reel here in. Make sure you praise her big time.

The check cord should become part of her life until she is absolutely perfect. Repeat the recall training with lots of distractions. I have done months with a check cord.

If you can use the collar WITHOUT vocalization then add the e-collar to your check cord training. Use a nick on the collar at the same time you reel here in using the check cord.

Lastly, put your track shoes on. If your dog does not come to you, go get her.


If you quit using the collar when they vocalize, then you teach them that vocalization will turn off the pressure instead of performing the task. With the sensitive dogs I've trained, you have to slow down and make sure they know how to turn off the pressure.. otherwise you're going through the motions instead of teaching the process.

Robby

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6488701 10/10/16 04:15 AM
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I have a border collie that will not respond to a shock even if it's on level 6. But if you set it to vibrate it drives him adsolutely crazy. With that being said I found a cheap ObeDog for $30.00. It's range is limited but it is great for around the house.

Last edited by HornSlayer; 10/10/16 04:13 PM.

They make ammo specifically for hunting for a reason! nidea
Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Matagorda Mud Pig] #6488972 10/10/16 02:54 PM
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I don't like sport dog collars, they don't have the range of stimulation I want and don't step up. I use a garmin 550, Expensive but tremendous range of stimulation and easy to step up. you can jump it two levels without messing with the dial.
I would never run the dog without a collar.
I don't use nick at all, only continuous stimulation, always starting at the lowest level possible. Be aware that the yelp may be just a way to con you. You should be able to go a level you can barely feel on your neck and give the dog a command at continuous stimulation at that level until the dog complies. If she doesn't quit but just yelps, then she isn't collar shy, she is conning you. Remember the collar is more of away to communicate with the dog rather that punishment.
BTW sometimes when the dog has no collar and they won't obey you can bluff them by showing them your mobile phone.

Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: Mundo] #6491327 10/12/16 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Mundo
I don't like sport dog collars, they don't have the range of stimulation I want and don't step up. I use a garmin 550, Expensive but tremendous range of stimulation and easy to step up. you can jump it two levels without messing with the dial.


This is not true. The Sportdog 2525 has the same functionality as the 550. The 2525 actually has a lot more stimulation levels than the 550 which allows you to fine tune your corrections better.


Kevin Buckley
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Re: Help with soft, e-collar wise dog. [Re: kbobbjr] #6492056 10/12/16 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: kbobbjr
Originally Posted By: Mundo
I don't like sport dog collars, they don't have the range of stimulation I want and don't step up. I use a garmin 550, Expensive but tremendous range of stimulation and easy to step up. you can jump it two levels without messing with the dial.


This is not true. The Sportdog 2525 has the same functionality as the 550. The 2525 actually has a lot more stimulation levels than the 550 which allows you to fine tune your corrections better.


That is a new collar that i hadn't seen before. I notice it has a controller similar to the garmin 550. I am familiar with the older style sport dog trainer, which I still dislike. I notice you have a kennel, are you a dealer for sport dog?

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