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.1 vs .02 digital scales #6321067 06/03/16 12:52 PM
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TackDriver Offline OP
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I have the old RCBS digital powder scale that I have been using for years and it measures .1 grain, would a .02 scale help in accuracy at long range? There are scales that cost thousands of dollars that measures by the kernal, but its outrageously high in value and not looking to spend that kind of money. $200 to $300 is my budget. Is the GemPro 250 a great scale? Pros and cons of buying a .02 scale?

Last edited by Big Stan; 06/03/16 12:53 PM.
Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321121 06/03/16 01:25 PM
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For a long range shooter more than likely yes, it would allow you to fine tune a load as opposed to guessing where you are in the tenths. Your current scale is fine, but if you want the ability to consistently produce a duplicate load I would make the switch.



Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321183 06/03/16 01:51 PM
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I'm not going to say it will or wont help you, but I do know there are countless long range shooters that do well that do not measure to .02.

Some of the well known guys on this forum use chargemasters, which are only accurate to .1.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321245 06/03/16 02:34 PM
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I use a chargemaster and with the .1 resolution it shouldn't make that big of a difference if you're just trying to hit BIG steel targets out to 1,000 yards.

I'm trying to get better at shooting bullet holes at 100 yards though so I am waiting for my auto trickler for a .02 resolution scale.

http://www.autotrickler.com/index.html

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321271 06/03/16 02:52 PM
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My thoughts: I have an RCBS Chargemaster and have wondered the same thing. When I find high SD's on my loads, I always suspect the Chargemaster, but I have checked it against my beam balance scale and have even pulled bullets on loaded ammo to weigh the charge. It's always within "half a tenth" (0.05 gr) of the desired weight. The powder I use for many of my loads typically gives me a velocity difference of about 50 fps per grain. Keeping things simple, that means 0.1 gr gives me a velocity difference of about 5 fps. Given all the other variables that can affect velocity and accuracy, I'm not worried about 5 fps.

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321505 06/03/16 06:04 PM
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Beginning of this week, I made a video to post on line to show how I load my ammo with the powder charge accurate to within .02 grains. (I'll be uploading it shortly).

Take the RCBS chargemaster. It states that it is accurate to within +/- .1 grains. So, that's accurate to within about .2 grains of powder (or more), which is a legitimate swing with the RCBS CM. Now, I use a Sartorious high end digital scale that is accurate to within +/- .02 grains. That's accurate to within .04 grains technically. Most extruded kernels of gun powder are about .02 to .03 grains in weight. So, the .02 grain scale is accurate to within 1 kernel of powder.

Now, what is the real world difference between .2 and .04 grains? From my testing, .1 grains of powder is about 10 fps increase/decrease. So a .2 grain spread is already equal to about a 20 fps extreme spread, just in the powder charge! That's without accounting for any deviation in the load itself, the rifle, environmental conditions and all the other factors.

Now to tighten up those numbers, getting your powder charge consistent to within .02 grains is to the kernel accuracy. This will give you the most consistent powder charge to keep your extreme spread (ES) and standard deviation (SD) as tight as possible. This becomes a HUGE factor at longer ranges where a high ES will cause vertical stringing and groups to open up. Sure, you may or may not see it at 100 yards from a hunting rifle. But for precision shooting, the .02 grains consistency is extremely important to me and my customers!


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321513 06/03/16 06:14 PM
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Also, if the scale is a strain gauge (like the RCBS CM and most low end scales), these will "wonder" with their weight readings. So frequently re-zeroing and calibrating are important. The higher end scales will use a magnetic method to weigh, which is much more consistent and repeatable. Also, look at the settle or stabilization time, which is how fast the scale reads the weight. My Sartorious is the magnetic type, and stabilization time in 1 second.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321548 06/03/16 06:51 PM
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How many people loading on a scale accurate to +/- 0.1 grains have a load that is under 20 fps ES?

I don't even have a chronograph, just curious to know.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321550 06/03/16 06:53 PM
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My 6.5x47 Lapua was running 6 and 7 ES on 5-6 shots during load work up. When practicing and putting 20+ rounds down it, my ES was 18, which is about 5 to 6 SD, which is freakin' awesome.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321570 06/03/16 07:07 PM
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Sartorius ENTRIS 423-1S is the scale I run. It offers the best overall performance I am looking for in the precision, weight area and speed I need.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321642 06/03/16 08:06 PM
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Its the old need versus want...

I don't need it, but its nice knowing for sure that when the bullet doesn't go where i thought it would, it was not the ammo.

If you are shooting deer to 300 yards, .1 is more then enough.

If you are shooting matches at to 1200 yards and 10-30k is on the prize table than i want EVERY advantage i could get

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321653 06/03/16 08:11 PM
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I did a class with NTPR a few years ago. We were loading 308 and i wanted to try his Prometheus for grins. We did the same charge on an RCBS CM and it. The SD was half on the Prometheus. Now it was a small sample size so i never did put it through my statistical tool to determine if there was a spastically significant difference in variation. But I would put money i could get one with a sample size of 30 each.


for the record i have a CM and just got a gem pro to measure how good it actually is. I am debating buying a higher end scale. The biggest issue i have had with the gem pro so far is its slow to respond after adding powder.

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321795 06/03/16 09:49 PM
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Yes, Jay's Prometheus is to within the kernel, which is .02 grains.

Powder is the sheer driving force behind the bullet. If it's the same each time, you get the same pressure and speed each time. If it varies, so will your speeds.

Like I said, for general hunting, within .1 or so is perfectly fine. I load my personal hunting ammo quickly on the Chargemaster when I need ammo in a hurry. And it does perfectly fine. But when I am wanting to tag something far away, .02 accuracy is how I roll.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321858 06/03/16 10:40 PM
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For general use .1 is fine, I shot F class for some time and with a good load in an accuracy node .1 will get it done out to 600 yards. I would imagine that past that distance the difference would be more apparent. Inside 600 environmental conditions usually played a much bigger role, much less the ability of the shooter, for that matter your average low volume shooter might not be competent enough to realize any performance increase.

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: ChadTRG42] #6321916 06/03/16 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
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Powder is the sheer driving force behind the bullet. If it's the same each time, you get the same pressure and speed each time. If it varies, so will your speeds.


Not that simple. Case volume plays every bit as much a role in velocity consistency as charge weight does. But the real wild card is neck tension.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321948 06/04/16 12:20 AM
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Going to the more accurate scale does remove one more variable from the loading for accuracy equation. Still have case volume, bullet weight, neck tension, runout and ... for other things that can effect accuracy.

How much the reloader/shooter wants to chase that ultimate accuracy is up to them. Unless one is a very good shot going for better than half MOA or even MOA consistently is often beyond the shooters skillset.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: ChadTRG42] #6321958 06/04/16 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Sartorius ENTRIS 423-1S is the scale I run. It offers the best overall performance I am looking for in the precision, weight area and speed I need.


And burns a big hole in my pocket. grin

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: Cleric] #6321962 06/04/16 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Cleric
for the record i have a CM and just got a gem pro to measure how good it actually is. I am debating buying a higher end scale. The biggest issue i have had with the gem pro so far is its slow to respond after adding powder.


How did the GemPro 250 work for you? Did it keep the ES and SD down over the CM?

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6321975 06/04/16 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: Big Stan
Originally Posted By: Cleric
for the record i have a CM and just got a gem pro to measure how good it actually is. I am debating buying a higher end scale. The biggest issue i have had with the gem pro so far is its slow to respond after adding powder.


How did the GemPro 250 work for you? Did it keep the ES and SD down over the CM?


haven't even really tried it for loading...I got it about a month or two ago, but have been slammed with house renovations and travel.

Hopefully next week i will have a chance to use it. From the limited i used it, it does not react well/fast to adding powder. I took some target and was able to add 4-6 kernels before it registered any difference in charge.

I think its going to be good for the occasional check of the CM, but it is far from a high end scale.

Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: RiverRider] #6322568 06/04/16 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
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Powder is the sheer driving force behind the bullet. If it's the same each time, you get the same pressure and speed each time. If it varies, so will your speeds.


Not that simple. Case volume plays every bit as much a role in velocity consistency as charge weight does. But the real wild card is neck tension.


Yes and no. It depends on the burn speed of the powder used in the cartridge and bullet combo. This is exactly one of the topics we talked about at the Applied Ballistics seminar. For example, take a 300 Win Mag with a 190 grain bullet. Selecting a powder with near 100% case fill will be something in the 4831, R22 and H1000 burn rate. These 3 powders, or anything in this general burn rate, would be a great choice for this 190 grain bullet to get near 100% case fill and push the 190 grain bullet to it's maximum speeds efficiently with low ES and SD numbers (about 3000 fps).

Now, if you were to drop down to a much faster burn rate powder, like H4895, in the same 300 WM and 190 grain bullet, and get 80% case fill, the efficiency is still there, but at a cost of much slower speed. Litz did this testing, and found that with the right powders getting to the max pressure with this 80% case fill, your ES and SD numbers actually stayed the same or improved (lowered the ES and SD). Your velocity will be reduced by about 100-200 fps by using 80% fill and a faster burning powder. This is the same thing I have seen. Whenever I can not dial in a rifle with the usual powders that generally work, I drop down to a faster burn rate powder with the same bullet. This makes the cartridge have a larger sweet spot, and less finicky to find the accuracy node.

This is why I select the "optimum" powder for a given cartridge and bullet weight. Each cartridge and bullet combo have a general area where I want to be in when selecting a powder for it. When you see guys that want only 1 powder for about 5 cartridges they shoot, but 1 or 2 (or more) of the rounds are not optimized for that powder and bullet combo.

Neck tension, of course, is important. But IMO, the powder charge consistency is much more important than having a slightly varying neck tension (which I have had before in the past, but the rifle still shot well).

But like I said, powder is the shear driving force behind the bullet. Nothing else propels the bullet out of the barrel. So it is very important to have a consistent and accurate powder charge from round to round to maintain a consistent velocity, especially at longer ranges.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6322824 06/04/16 09:45 PM
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I will agree that charge weight consistency is important, and I will also agree that running in the correct pressure range is important---even moreso. But if you can't control neck tension and case volume the benefits of weighing to 0.02 grain are simply going to be out of reach. The very first portion of the pressure curve is influenced by the inertia of the bullet at rest, proximity to the lands, and neck tension. Change up any of those three, and the first portion of the pressure curve is altered which in turn affects the rest of the burn, and the rest of the curve.


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: RiverRider] #6322886 06/04/16 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
I will agree that charge weight consistency is important, and I will also agree that running in the correct pressure range is important---even moreso. But if you can't control neck tension and case volume the benefits of weighing to 0.02 grain are simply going to be out of reach. The very first portion of the pressure curve is influenced by the inertia of the bullet at rest, proximity to the lands, and neck tension. Change up any of those three, and the first portion of the pressure curve is altered which in turn affects the rest of the burn, and the rest of the curve.


Agree, while consistent powder charges are important they are not the only variable in getting consistent velocity. Powder selection does play a part as do the other things mentioned in this thread

Last edited by kmon1; 06/04/16 10:40 PM.

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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6322937 06/04/16 11:20 PM
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I've got no dog in this fight. What do you you do with the bench rest boys that load by volume? Page 21 starts the loading process. If you want to fast forward, I've come to the conclusion that all you need is time, money and talent. Lately I've had the time, short on the others that are far more important. grin

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/11487/building-benchrest-rifle?page=21

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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: TackDriver] #6323018 06/05/16 12:36 AM
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Here are the results that QuickLOAD predicts for a .270 Winchester load using a 130-grain Partition. The case capacity difference is 0.5 grains of water:




Code:
Cartridge          : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .277, 130, Nosler PART SP 16322
Useable Case Capaci: 61.884 grain H2O = 4.018 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   83    49.68   2889    2409   46212  10621     99.5    1.230
-09.0   84    50.23   2918    2458   47675  10704     99.6    1.212
-08.0   85    50.78   2947    2507   49181  10782     99.8    1.195
-07.0   86    51.34   2976    2557   50737  10855     99.9    1.178
-06.0   87    51.89   3005    2606   52341  10923     99.9    1.161
-05.0   88    52.44   3033    2656   53995  10985    100.0    1.145
-04.0   89    52.99   3062    2706   55703  11042    100.0    1.129  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0   89    53.54   3090    2756   57465  11097    100.0    1.113  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   90    54.10   3118    2806   59281  11150    100.0    1.098  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0   91    54.65   3146    2857   61161  11202    100.0    1.083  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   92    55.20   3174    2908   63102  11254    100.0    1.068  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0   93    55.75   3201    2958   65104  11305    100.0    1.054  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!




Code:
Cartridge          : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .277, 130, Nosler PART SP 16322
Useable Case Capaci: 62.388 grain H2O = 4.051 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   82    49.68   2879    2393   45556  10630     99.4    1.238
-09.0   83    50.23   2908    2441   46990  10715     99.6    1.221
-08.0   84    50.78   2937    2490   48467  10795     99.7    1.204
-07.0   85    51.34   2966    2539   49989  10870     99.8    1.187
-06.0   86    51.89   2994    2588   51557  10940     99.9    1.170
-05.0   87    52.44   3023    2637   53177  11004    100.0    1.154
-04.0   88    52.99   3051    2687   54843  11064    100.0    1.138
-03.0   89    53.54   3079    2737   56569  11119    100.0    1.122  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   90    54.10   3107    2787   58346  11173    100.0    1.107  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0   91    54.65   3135    2837   60179  11226    100.0    1.092  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   91    55.20   3163    2887   62073  11278    100.0    1.077  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0   92    55.75   3190    2938   64026  11330    100.0    1.062  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   93    56.30   3217    2988   66045  11381    100.0    1.048  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0   94    56.86   3245    3039   68129  11432    100.0    1.034  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   95    57.41   3272    3090   70280  11481    100.0    1.020  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0   96    57.96   3299    3141   72504  11530    100.0    1.006  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!


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Re: .1 vs .02 digital scales [Re: RiverRider] #6323042 06/05/16 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
.

Powder is the sheer driving force behind the bullet. If it's the same each time, you get the same pressure and speed each time. If it varies, so will your speeds.


Not that simple. Case volume plays every bit as much a role in velocity consistency as charge weight does. But the real wild card is neck tension.


How is neck tension measured and how does one control it from cartridge to cartridge?


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it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking
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