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medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. #5689135 04/08/15 12:44 AM
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The standard 2.8-2.9 inch short action and subsequent magazines just don't cut it for standard rounds.

There is only one reason shorter rounds like the 6.5x47, 6xc, and creedmoors exist today. Because they can load heavy for caliber bullets properly and still fit in standard magazines.

308 loaded with heavies can easily go 3.1 inches
260 and 7mm-08 almost the same
6.5x55 and 7mm mauser same story.
284 win and it's derivatives can easily go length as well.

It's exciting seeing companies like stiller offer medium length actions. Tikka has zero excuse.
All we need now is 3,5, and 10 round quality mags and dbm's that allow loading to 3.2 inches and still reliably feed a 2.8 inch factory round.

I blame it on short sided thinking by remington.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689149 04/08/15 12:52 AM
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This was posted on Stillers facebook page. A whole bunch of win right there, and is exactly what is needed.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689187 04/08/15 01:15 AM
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Tikka has no excuse for what?

Love the two I have.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689206 04/08/15 01:24 AM
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Sorry, I should have explained that one. Tikka uses one action size for both short and long action cartridges. 223 to 300 win are all the same t3 action.

They could have very simply given 3.1-3.2 inches of magazine length for the medium action rounds. It would have only required a different bolt stop/release and magazine.

I will dig up a pic of the 308 magazine to illustrate what I am talking about.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689217 04/08/15 01:27 AM
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http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads..._Magazine_Modif

Here is a good picture of what I am talking about. The pic shows a 223 magazine, but you get the point.

While I'm at it. Why didn't tikka allow for a 2.5 inch coal on there 223 mag? Silly.

Last edited by 6.5x47Lapua; 04/08/15 01:28 AM.
Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689228 04/08/15 01:33 AM
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Yes I kow they use one action. I have two, remember.

The types of rifles you're talking about building will be wearing different bottom metal anyway. Then we're limited to the length of an A.I. mag, no matter what the action is.

Just sayin...


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689244 04/08/15 01:38 AM
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Exactly, it's time to get past the aics magazine. Alot of companies are making copy cat designs of aics mags, they should be trying to improve upon them.

The TRG and AW mags will both fit a 3 inch coal. I just want to see it taken one step further.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689251 04/08/15 01:41 AM
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I don't always use aics mags either. For a hunting rifle, I am fine with just using the factory magazines. So yes, I want them improved as well.

You can't tell me that the current short mags, 308 based cartridges, mausers, etc, etc wouldn't benefit from a longer overall length action.


Trying to stuff a 300wsm with a 200+ berger inside 3 inches is problematic, and kills boiler room.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689255 04/08/15 01:42 AM
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Because why? What is wrong with an A.I. mag?

I've had the same two 10 rounders and one 5 rounder (short action) for four years without a lick of problems. After a couple thousand rounds in each mag.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: J.G.] #5689262 04/08/15 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Because why? What is wrong with an A.I. mag?

I've had the same two 10 rounders and one 5 rounder (short action) for four years without a lick of problems. After a couple thousand rounds in each mag.


Ever try loading a 3.2 inch cartridge into an aics mag?

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689263 04/08/15 01:45 AM
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Sure, my 7 Rem Mag...


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689264 04/08/15 01:46 AM
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AICS mags are great for rounds like 6.5x47, creedmoor, 6xc, etc, etc.
I have three of them as well. Great stuff indeed.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689266 04/08/15 01:49 AM
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Surely you understand what I am trying to convey?


300win aw mags won't feed a 308 from a medium action.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689311 04/08/15 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: 6.5x47Lapua
AICS mags are great for rounds like 6.5x47, creedmoor, 6xc, etc, etc.
I have three of them as well. Great stuff indeed.


I've used them .308 with 178 A-max touching lands, .22-250 75 gr A-max touching lands, 260 Rem 140 VLD and 140 A-max touching lands, 6.5 Creedmoor 140 Aax touching lands, 7mm-08 162 A-max touching lands, all with room to sare in the mag. All were chambered with zero or very little free-bore.

Throat erosion is going to happen same as tires on a pickup wearing out. As it does you may be stuck at mag length and be jumping. You may also have to tweak the load to work with the jump. Tires wear out, barrel throats wear out. The key is to start off with no free-bore so you're in good shape for a longer span of barrel life.

If you want more room, buy a long action.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: J.G.] #5689336 04/08/15 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG


If you want more room, buy a long action.


That's kinda what I was thinking. I'm still a major newbie at all this stuff, but im assuming you want to seat the long heavy bullets farther out to maximize case capacity to gain maximum velocity. If you can't do that with a 6.5 creedmore in a short action, then why not move up to a long action cartridge like the 6.5-06. I might be way off on the reason you want medium actions and longer mags, if so, please enlighten me. I have a lot to learn.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689365 04/08/15 02:32 AM
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Think about it from a mfg stand point. Tikka built 1 action, and built it very well. They make that 1 action fit with all the various lengths of calibers. If they were to build 3 different sizes of actions, your mfg costs would certainly increase.

You can build a Rem 700 and install a hinged floor plate that will allow the 3.000 lengths. Wyatt's makes this. You can also modify your AICS mags to feed up to 2.960 (or 2.980") length rounds. But this long does cause some problems. When I was chasing the lands on my 260 Rem with 140 VLD's, I was at 2.945" long feeding out of an AICS mag with a modified Surgeon (opened up the feeding lip with a Dremel tool), and it feed fine. If you drill out the front plate of the AICS mags, it will work fine.

I know what you are looking for and asking, but the problem is working these longer parts into existing actions and stocks that are already set for certain lengths. The new parts won't work with the old parts, etc. Within the last 10 years really, is when we have seen the long-for-caliber, high BC bullets come into play as a main stream round. Before, these bullets were custom. You didn't have these mag length issues with the basic Sierra Matchking. Now everyone is searching and trying to come up with the highest BC bullet possible. Sure extra BC is nice, but I think most shooters do not spend enough time already trying to learn and improve their marksmanship, and worry about the highest BC possible, instead of actually shooting. But I digress.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689366 04/08/15 02:32 AM
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It's clear to me that you aren't getting my point. Running a 208 amax at 2600 fps in a 308 will best the 178 amax every single time.

Companies like Stiller and Defiance have taken advantage of a market gap. You don't need a long action for these cartridges, when a medium is absolutely perfect. I say leave the short actions for the creedmoor's and 223's.

178 amax isn't heavy for a 30 cal. Within the last several years, F-tr has really taken off. Being limited to using only 223 and 308, lots of guys have started pushing the boundries of the 308. People are loading 200-230 berger, 208 amax, and all sorts of 30 cal heavy bullets. You simply can't load a hornady 208 or 225 in a 308 at 2.9 inches. The bullet takes up too much powder space,and you loose velocity. The COAL of these rounds end up being a little over 3 inches. You simply have the chamber cut accordingly, and away you go. This and the 284's is where the medium action comes into play.

Have you ever wanted to try the 180 hybrids in a 7mm-08? Chambered properly to give a 3.1 inch COAL, and if your twist will stabilize the round, it very well could surprise you.

We now have proper repeating actions to take full advantage for these rounds. Just need the magazine manufacturers to catch up.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: TFF Caribou] #5689369 04/08/15 02:35 AM
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You're not on the wrong track.

Case capacity has not ever been a factor for me. With a case NOT FULL of powder I can get pressure signs. So I'm not after a specific velocity, just need decent velocity and great consistency shot to shot. Being limited on O.A.L. has not hindered me, ever.

If you want a faster round run a longer barrel.

If you can't get the bullet to touch the lands (if that's what you want) but you can't fit in the mag, tell your smith to use a "0" freebore reamer. Heck my Creedmoor is now jumping .022" and still shooting tiny, also still fitting in the mag.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689378 04/08/15 02:38 AM
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But how many actual shooters run a 200+ grain bullet in a 308 Win? Not many. The 208's I have loaded in a 308 Win for a few customers had some issues at longer ranges. These were 1:10" twist. If you run the heavier 230 Berger, you will need more than a 1:10" twist for proper stability at 308 Win speeds and case capacity.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689380 04/08/15 02:39 AM
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Chad, we were typing at the same time. Very well said. And I agree completely with what you just typed.

That being said, How easy would it have been for Tikka to just allow a little bit more in the mag? No extra manufacturing needed. Just leave off some of the spacer in the back, and you have it. Only other thing needed would have been to adjust the bolt stop. Simple, Easy. Everybody wins.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689387 04/08/15 02:43 AM
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Ok, 100% agree on the Tikka mags. Why would you handicap a Tikka 223 Varmint heavy bull barrel with a 1:8" twist, and make a magazine length right at max length of like 2.250" or so and not allow you to shoot the heavy, high BC bullets. I can't even come close to running the 80 grain Bergers, and the 75 grain A-max is seated bellow the ogive of the bullet in the Tikka mags. Drives me crazy. So I'm running the Hornady 75 bthp for now.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689388 04/08/15 02:43 AM
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So you want the .308 Win to do the job of a .30-06?

No, I do not want a 180 gr. in a 7-08. That's what the 7 Rem mag is for.

There is a line of depreciation when you get a giant BC but can't push it fast enough to make it work well. This is all a balancing act; highest BC possible while still maintaining a decent MV. Making huge gains on one side often takes away from the other side when talking short actions. Thus the reason for long actions and magnum parent cases. My 7 Rem Mag is running a 180 VLD at 3050 fps MV. Super high BC, very fast. The trade off is more recoil and a shorter barrel life by a wide margin.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: ChadTRG42] #5689395 04/08/15 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Ok, 100% agree on the Tikka mags. Why would you handicap a Tikka 223 Varmint heavy bull barrel with a 1:8" twist, and make a magazine length right at max length of like 2.250" or so and not allow you to shoot the heavy, high BC bullets. I can't even come close to running the 80 grain Bergers, and the 75 grain A-max is seated bellow the ogive of the bullet in the Tikka mags. Drives me crazy. So I'm running the Hornady 75 bthp for now.


Exactly my point from earlier.

Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: 6.5x47Lapua] #5689397 04/08/15 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: 6.5x47Lapua
Chad, we were typing at the same time. Very well said. And I agree completely with what you just typed.

That being said, How easy would it have been for Tikka to just allow a little bit more in the mag? No extra manufacturing needed. Just leave off some of the spacer in the back, and you have it. Only other thing needed would have been to adjust the bolt stop. Simple, Easy. Everybody wins.


I was replying when you wrote this. I can't dispute that. However, look at this from the manufacturer's side. With a ton of room in the mag, what kind of feeding problems is bubba gonna have running factory Rem Core Lockts in a rifle he fires 10 times a year, and he didnt make sure the rounds were all the way to the rear of the mag?


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Re: medium actions and the need for a better mouse trap. [Re: J.G.] #5689410 04/08/15 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
So you want the .308 Win to do the job of a .30-06?

No, I do not want a 180 gr. in a 7-08. That's what the 7 Rem mag is for.

There is a line of depreciation when you get a giant BC but can't push it fast enough to make it work well. This is all a balancing act; highest BC possible while still maintaining a decent MV. Making huge gains on one side often takes away from the other side when talking short actions. Thus the reason for long actions and magnum parent cases. My 7 Rem Mag is running a 180 VLD at 3050 fps MV. Super high BC, very fast. The trade off is more recoil and a shorter barrel life by a wide margin.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.


I remember hearing the same argument years ago. "A 308 could never push the 208 amax fast enough to be worth while." "Get a 30-06 or 300 win mag" they said. That was until people started doing it.

Come on JG, what if you managed 2700 fps with the 180 hybrid. And what if your loads had all the consistancy and accuracy of the 162 amax.

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