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What constitutes a tight group for a carry gun? #6564324 11/29/16 09:42 PM
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Everyone pays a lot of attention to how well their rifle shoots tight groups. And yet, I can't remember ever seeing a post around here focusing on what constitutes as being a tight shooting handgun.

For the person looking to spend some time at the range with their carry gun, what should be their goal in hitting paper at a given distance?


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564376 11/29/16 10:14 PM
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If you are a target shooter then all in the Bullseye. If you are a combat shooter then center mass. When I teach a class, before putting up any targets, I get the back of a target and draw circles on it. I use a roll of duct tape (inside) and draw circles on the paper. Single tap until you are comfortable and then try some double taps. The better you get the faster you should get. If you want to make yourself better then put a small dot in the center of the circle and always shoot at it. If you are shooting correctly, and you have a decent weapon you can shoot well, then you should start seeing tighter groups. Aim small, miss small.

g

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564451 11/29/16 11:10 PM
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reliability > accuracy for carry. Within the bounds of sanity, of course.


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564454 11/29/16 11:14 PM
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2 to the chest, one to the head is just about right for me

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564467 11/29/16 11:25 PM
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I carry a S&W 637-2 and practice out to 25 yards with it. At 25 yards my goal is to put 2 hits on a human silhouette target (think it's the B-27 size?) in 3 seconds. That's typically a 12 - 14 inch group or somewhere in that neighborhood. With bigger handguns like my 1911 I can shrink the group considerably. I don't think I've ever fired one from the bench for grouping other than an initial sight-in for the ones with adjustable sights.


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: SingleShot85] #6564471 11/29/16 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: SingleShot85
2 to the chest, one to the head is just about right for me


Bam! Everybody need to practice that.

Went to the range with the wife today, I made her uncomfortable and put her at 12 yards instead of letting her pick the 3 or 7 yard. I used a target designed for rifles, it has 5 diamonds to shoot at. She had her Sig P238, which is a small frame 380. She started with the biggest target in the middle, prob a 4x4 diamond. She ran 2 mags into it. Then 1 mag per diamond that was 2x2. She was very frustrated at the groups of the 2x2 diamonds because they didn't hit the bullseye, but once I explained to her that she still kept 7 shots within a 3 inch group she was happy.

I think accuracy is relative to the particular gun. Small pistols are less accurate generally than full size because of the shorter sight plane.

I cannot shoot small groups with a pistol, but I also don't train for that. All my shooting is based on combat, quick follow ups, which will open up groups. That being said, in a 50 round qual course, varying from 3-25 yards, I keep about a 10 inch group. The more I focus on shooting tight groups the more I shake, it just isn't going to happen standing unsupported.

I think that if somebody, can keep all their shots on a human size sillohuet at 25 yards than they are plenty accurate enough for defense


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564486 11/29/16 11:38 PM
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One fist size hole at 15 yards aughta do.


Originally Posted by unclebubba
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564518 11/29/16 11:54 PM
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All good posts.

Being able to put a given number of bullets into the target area in a given amount of time is something that many probably overlook, including yours truly.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: TexFlip] #6564538 11/30/16 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: TexFlip
One fist size hole at 15 yards oughta do.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

any farther and it's time for a long gun

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564575 11/30/16 12:24 AM
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I'd say a 10" group from 10yds. of @ least 5 rounds in 5 seconds & that's good enough.
Tighter group, faster time, more rounds is always better!!!!
When we shoot pistols, we do it on the move or from behind/around obstacles. We try to make it realistic in what could happen in the real world. It's a game changer shooting while briskly walking on rough terrain.


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564710 11/30/16 01:21 AM
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I regularly practice rapid fire, target acquisition, and shooting and moving; but I'm blessed with a private range membership that encourages these practices and it set up for drills. Even with that, some days I'm just better than others. We did a drill last month were we ran 4 20yd shuttles, moved into firing position, drew our weapon, and made three hits on four targets from 7 yards to 25. The fourth time through the drill, it took me six shots to get three on target at 25 yards. A buddy had to reload on the fly because he only had a 14 round magazine and had four fliers on the 25. Under stress with adrenaline, those groups sure do open up quickly.

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: LFD2037] #6564808 11/30/16 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: LFD2037
I'd say a 10" group from 10yds. of @ least 5 rounds in 5 seconds & that's good enough.
Tighter group, faster time, more rounds is always better!!!!
When we shoot pistols, we do it on the move or from behind/around obstacles. We try to make it realistic in what could happen in the real world. It's a game changer shooting while briskly walking on rough terrain.


On our qual we draw from holster when the target turns to face, fire 5 in 8 seconds. A lot harder than it sounds since its reactionary. 5 in 5 isn't hard, but throw in in the rest and it feels like you have 2 seconds to accomplish the task


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: okstatefan] #6564811 11/30/16 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: okstatefan
I regularly practice rapid fire, target acquisition, and shooting and moving; but I'm blessed with a private range membership that encourages these practices and it set up for drills. Even with that, some days I'm just better than others. We did a drill last month were we ran 4 20yd shuttles, moved into firing position, drew our weapon, and made three hits on four targets from 7 yards to 25. The fourth time through the drill, it took me six shots to get three on target at 25 yards. A buddy had to reload on the fly because he only had a 14 round magazine and had four fliers on the 25. Under stress with adrenaline, those groups sure do open up quickly.


That's good practice that most don't get and never think about. Shoot and move and move to some damn cover!

Where are you shooting at?


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: BigPig] #6564841 11/30/16 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: BigPig


That's good practice that most don't get and never think about. Shoot and move and move to some damn cover!

Where are you shooting at?


It was Fusion Gun Range just south of Forney. They have recently closed that facility and consolidated to Lone Star Gun Club on Lawson Rd in Mesquite. Due to my son's swim meets and Thanksgiving Holiday, I haven't been to the new facility yet. I'm hoping to get there this Sunday and see how the "combat range" compares. There were two guys doing the same drill with carbines, an AKM and an AR15. They were petered out after the fourth run.

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6564983 11/30/16 03:24 AM
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I don't worry about accuracy out of a carry gun. They are not gonna run through bullets to get you. My Kel Tec is acceptably accurate for its uses.

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: okstatefan] #6564991 11/30/16 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: okstatefan
Originally Posted By: BigPig


That's good practice that most don't get and never think about. Shoot and move and move to some damn cover!

Where are you shooting at?


It was Fusion Gun Range just south of Forney. They have recently closed that facility and consolidated to Lone Star Gun Club on Lawson Rd in Mesquite. Due to my son's swim meets and Thanksgiving Holiday, I haven't been to the new facility yet. I'm hoping to get there this Sunday and see how the "combat range" compares. There were two guys doing the same drill with carbines, an AKM and an AR15. They were petered out after the fourth run.


I haven't been to the new one either. I didn't renew my membership because of broken promises about a 1000 us range and I got tired of dealing with the flooding of the old range


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: okstatefan] #6565023 11/30/16 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: okstatefan
Originally Posted By: BigPig


That's good practice that most don't get and never think about. Shoot and move and move to some damn cover!

Where are you shooting at?


It was Fusion Gun Range just south of Forney. They have recently closed that facility and consolidated to Lone Star Gun Club on Lawson Rd in Mesquite. Due to my son's swim meets and Thanksgiving Holiday, I haven't been to the new facility yet. I'm hoping to get there this Sunday and see how the "combat range" compares. There were two guys doing the same drill with carbines, an AKM and an AR15. They were petered out after the fourth run.

I'd like to try the new one out as well. Went to the old one & it wasn't any better, actually worse, than ETTS which is right down the road from me. I just wish ETTS wasn't $600/yr membership. I'm going to try to make it out to the new 'Fusion' this week, hopefully.


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: BigPig] #6565025 11/30/16 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: BigPig

I haven't been to the new one either. I didn't renew my membership because of broken promises about a 1000 us range and I got tired of dealing with the flooding of the old range


I agree with that totally. I was actually one of the first 5-10 members and Derick made it right by me for MOST of the problems they encountered. I'm not a long-range shooter, so the 1000yd promise didn't wear me down, but I can surely appreciate those who had that expectation. My biggest reasoning for staying with them is that my Navy son only gets leave once or twice a year. We don't have private land yet. When we go to a range we want as few other people as possible, freedom to exercise our sound judgement, the ability to shoot multiple platforms in different situations. There were so many times I was at the range with only my family that they would just leave and ask me to lock up when we were finished. I really felt like it was my personal range about 80% of the time. When they were crowded, I either got in and out or simply didn't go.

I hope to get to Lone Star this weekend and will try to give an overall comparison. My membership is good through next July, and the situation will determine if I renew.

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: LFD2037] #6565715 11/30/16 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: LFD2037
I'd say a 10" group from 10yds. of @ least 5 rounds in 5 seconds & that's good enough.


10, 10, 5, 5.

Now that's easy to remember, even for someone like me with CRS.


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: okstatefan] #6565963 11/30/16 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: okstatefan
I regularly practice rapid fire, target acquisition, and shooting and moving; but I'm blessed with a private range membership that encourages these practices and it set up for drills. Even with that, some days I'm just better than others. We did a drill last month were we ran 4 20yd shuttles, moved into firing position, drew our weapon, and made three hits on four targets from 7 yards to 25. The fourth time through the drill, it took me six shots to get three on target at 25 yards. A buddy had to reload on the fly because he only had a 14 round magazine and had four fliers on the 25. Under stress with adrenaline, those groups sure do open up quickly.


I do the same here at Top Gun in Houston. Standing still at 7 yards I can dump a mag from my 1911 in just a hair over three seconds and the group is no larger than a baseball, typically smaller. Throw in moving away, engaging multiple targets at various distances while moving to cover, clearing DNFs or Jams (I use a plastic bullet(s) in the mag to simulate this), my groups vary greatly. If you can even call them groups. But I'm still able to make multiple lethal shots on each target, most of the time. I shoot a Richard Heine Nighthawk Custom in .45

Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: Texas Dan] #6566002 11/30/16 08:33 PM
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Something to remember with defensive handguns (just like hunting) is that it doesn't do you any good to shoot someone in the same place twice. If your practicing to hit the same place every time, you are doing it wrong. The object with defensive weapons is to get as many hits onto the target as quickly as possible and when I say "on target" I mean anywhere on the target.

Hit to low-center and then high-center is better than two hits within millimeters of each other center-center.


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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: HandgunHTR] #6566024 11/30/16 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: HandgunHTR
Something to remember with defensive handguns (just like hunting) is that it doesn't do you any good to shoot someone in the same place twice. If your practicing to hit the same place every time, you are doing it wrong. The object with defensive weapons is to get as many hits onto the target as quickly as possible and when I say "on target" I mean anywhere on the target.

Hit to low-center and then high-center is better than two hits within millimeters of each other center-center.


Good point.

Still, it would seem the first step in being able to hit a specific area accurately on the first shot, is being able to hit the same area repeatedly.

As the case in baseball, a pitcher must have good control before he can focus on throwing to specific areas of the plate.

Thanks again everyone for sharing some very useful comments and insight.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 11/30/16 09:12 PM.

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Re: What constitutes a tight group for a carry? [Re: HandgunHTR] #6566067 11/30/16 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: HandgunHTR
Something to remember with defensive handguns (just like hunting) is that it doesn't do you any good to shoot someone in the same place twice. If your practicing to hit the same place every time, you are doing it wrong. The object with defensive weapons is to get as many hits onto the target as quickly as possible and when I say "on target" I mean anywhere on the target.

Hit to low-center and then high-center is better than two hits within millimeters of each other center-center.


Agree to an extent. However, I'd rather shoot a guy twice in the pump house than four times in the extremities. The idea is shock and blood loss. The more holes you put in areas with lots of vitals, the faster the bad guy is gonna lose blood and die.

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