|
Forums46
Topics538,407
Posts9,736,810
Members87,089
| |
Most Online25,604
Feb 12th, 2024
|
|
|
 Gun Registry?
#8899856
08/12/23 01:11 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,033
pertnear
OP
"Demolition Man"
|
|
OP
"Demolition Man"
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,033 |
I just got through reading the thread about ghost guns & it reminded me of some questions I have about gun registry. Rather than dilute that thread I thought I might start a new thread.
I thought it was part case law or constitutional law that prohibited the fed’s from keeping a registry of all guns & owners. It seems like I heard that gun info which FFL collects is only suppose to be keep for a limited amount of time & then destroyed.
If this is true, what difference does a serial number make on a so-called ghost gun or that inherited shotgun of grandpappy’s or a pistol you bought from a friend?
The North has double last names. The South has double first names.
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: pertnear]
#8899956
08/12/23 05:29 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,328
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,328 |
When buying a firearm through a FFL, the 4473 stays with the dealer until it's destruction date, or if they no longer have their license, they all go to the BATFE. The 4473's are in cardboard boxes in leaky conex containers in a field behind the building. There's nobody who will even try to find an individual form because it's close to impossible. I'm sure someone will be along shortly and dispute all this because of some BS they read on Reddit, but I actually know because the tracking of firearms used in crimes was an essential part of my career.
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: pertnear]
#8900207
08/13/23 03:40 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,957
Sniper John
gumshoe
|
|
gumshoe
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,957 |
I believe things changed last year. It used to be FFLs could destroy records at 20 years. That is no longer the case. They must be kept until the business closes, then are turned over the the ATF. They changed it to where the FFL can store records over 20 years old at a different location or digitize the records. They are no longer destroyed. They apparently are being digitized now. It does make it look like they are setting it up for a "registry", but for now it is for reverse traces. I have been contacted by ATF before doing a reverse trace on a firearm I sold on THF. I suspect it was someone being investigated for unlicensed dealing from what little hints I got from the agent, but they would not specifically tell me why. For now traces are still only from importer or manufacturer to dealer and so on as far as the paper trail leads or what the last on the paper trail knows. You can thank Biden for the change. It is kind of hidden far down in this document. https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-receiver-and-identification-of-firearmsLastly, the rule finalizes with minor changes the proposed requirement that all licensees retain their records until the business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper or in an electronic format approved by the Director of ATF (“Director”), at the business or collection premises readily accessible for inspection. This includes authorization of licensees to store their “closed out” paper records and forms older than 20 years at a separate warehouse, which would be considered part of the business or collection premises for this purpose and subject to inspection. These provisions will enhance public safety by ensuring that acquisition and disposition records of all active licensees are not destroyed after 20 years and will remain available to law enforcement for tracing purposes. https://freerangeamerican.us/atf-form-4473-database/The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) recently revealed it has collected and maintained 920,664,765 firearm sales records to date that include American gun buyers’ personal information. Nearly 95% percent of them are retained in a digitized format, and the agency obtained 54.7 million of these records in fiscal 2021 alone.
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: Sniper John]
#8900218
08/13/23 04:19 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,328
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,328 |
I believe things changed last year. It used to be FFLs could destroy records at 20 years. That is no longer the case. They must be kept until the business closes, then are turned over the the ATF. They changed it to where the FFL can store records over 20 years old at a different location or digitize the records. They are no longer destroyed. They apparently are being digitized now. It does make it look like they are setting it up for a "registry", but for now it is for reverse traces. I have been contacted by ATF before doing a reverse trace on a firearm I sold on THF. I suspect it was someone being investigated for unlicensed dealing from what little hints I got from the agent, but they would not specifically tell me why. For now traces are still only from importer or manufacturer to dealer and so on as far as the paper trail leads or what the last on the paper trail knows. You can thank Biden for the change. It is kind of hidden far down in this document. https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-receiver-and-identification-of-firearmsLastly, the rule finalizes with minor changes the proposed requirement that all licensees retain their records until the business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper or in an electronic format approved by the Director of ATF (“Director”), at the business or collection premises readily accessible for inspection. This includes authorization of licensees to store their “closed out” paper records and forms older than 20 years at a separate warehouse, which would be considered part of the business or collection premises for this purpose and subject to inspection. These provisions will enhance public safety by ensuring that acquisition and disposition records of all active licensees are not destroyed after 20 years and will remain available to law enforcement for tracing purposes. https://freerangeamerican.us/atf-form-4473-database/The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) recently revealed it has collected and maintained 920,664,765 firearm sales records to date that include American gun buyers’ personal information. Nearly 95% percent of them are retained in a digitized format, and the agency obtained 54.7 million of these records in fiscal 2021 alone. “The records are stored as digital images that can't be searched for identifying information. The repository is essentially a giant folder full of pictures of forms.“ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gun-registry-missing-context/9304431002/
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: pertnear]
#8900444
08/13/23 07:22 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,957
Sniper John
gumshoe
|
|
gumshoe
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 20,957 |
You are correct. Can't be searched for identifying information, but it would be searchable by folder. It would be searchable in the same way you would use "file explorer" on your PC. But your are correct, it would not be set up to be searchable for identifying information of individuals or non FFL gun buyers, only by folder and image title or however their software is set up to label and categorize each folder of FFL bound book and 4473 images. Doing a reverse trace should be very easy now by pulling up each FFL's digital bound book until they get to the end of the trail. IMO it does make a once impossible task possible unless those servers are also stored in unmarked leaky conex containers.
As for my this could be setting up for registry comment. Yes that is the little conspiracy devil on my shoulder speaking to me. But it would be very easy to do. For example anyone can use optical character recognition on Google right now and search for text within images. But no I don't believe there is a secret registry, but I do believe it would not be very difficult to create one from a folder of document images with the right software.
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: pertnear]
#8900463
08/13/23 07:38 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,328
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
|
|
THF Celebrity
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,328 |
I agree. After my time in that world though I did learn some things. One is that the NFA registry is a giant PITA and the ATF hates every minute of having to maintain it. They would love to punt that ball to someone else.
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: pertnear]
#8900778
08/14/23 12:38 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,242
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
|
|
Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,242 |
Also pictures can be OCR’d.
If you have an iPhone (probably android as well) go to your picture album and swipe down to do a search. Type in pretty much anything and it’ll look for it. I was actually looking for a picture I took a long time ago of my SBR engraving. Typed in my trust name and it actually read the engraved trust name on the lower in the picture and popped it right up.
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: pertnear]
#8902821
08/17/23 06:06 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,292
Judd
#1 Creedmoor Fan
|
|
#1 Creedmoor Fan
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 19,292 |
Y'all keep believing that stuff but don't anyone have the ability to think logically any longer? If there isn't a registry of sort doesn't it at least make you raise an eyebrow how fast after one of these mass shootings they know so much about the history of the firearm?
I was born at nite but it wasn't last nite....jus sayin. Sure, there isn't a registry...
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: Judd]
#8903639
08/18/23 05:54 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,870
The Dude Abides
THF Trophy Hunter
|
|
THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,870 |
Y'all keep believing that stuff but don't anyone have the ability to think logically any longer? If there isn't a registry of sort doesn't it at least make you raise an eyebrow how fast after one of these mass shootings they know so much about the history of the firearm?
I was born at nite but it wasn't last nite....jus sayin. Sure, there isn't a registry... They don't need a "registry" to trace a gun. I had few phone calls from the NTC when I had my FFL. In most cases all the BATFE needs is the serial number (they have this data base) and manufacturer and it's down hill from there. Phone calls to manufacturer, distributor, wholesaler and then the retailer who has the 4473. Pretty easy.
Last edited by The Dude Abides; 08/18/23 05:55 PM.
I am still looking for the perfect apron, one with reinforced knee areas would be perfect.
|
|
|
|
Re: Gun Registry?
[Re: ntxtrapper]
#8905864
08/22/23 11:56 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,239
blkt2
Veteran Tracker
|
|
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,239 |
I believe things changed last year. It used to be FFLs could destroy records at 20 years. That is no longer the case. They must be kept until the business closes, then are turned over the the ATF. They changed it to where the FFL can store records over 20 years old at a different location or digitize the records. They are no longer destroyed. They apparently are being digitized now. It does make it look like they are setting it up for a "registry", but for now it is for reverse traces. I have been contacted by ATF before doing a reverse trace on a firearm I sold on THF. I suspect it was someone being investigated for unlicensed dealing from what little hints I got from the agent, but they would not specifically tell me why. For now traces are still only from importer or manufacturer to dealer and so on as far as the paper trail leads or what the last on the paper trail knows. You can thank Biden for the change. It is kind of hidden far down in this document. https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-receiver-and-identification-of-firearmsLastly, the rule finalizes with minor changes the proposed requirement that all licensees retain their records until the business or licensed activity is discontinued, either on paper or in an electronic format approved by the Director of ATF (“Director”), at the business or collection premises readily accessible for inspection. This includes authorization of licensees to store their “closed out” paper records and forms older than 20 years at a separate warehouse, which would be considered part of the business or collection premises for this purpose and subject to inspection. These provisions will enhance public safety by ensuring that acquisition and disposition records of all active licensees are not destroyed after 20 years and will remain available to law enforcement for tracing purposes. https://freerangeamerican.us/atf-form-4473-database/The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) recently revealed it has collected and maintained 920,664,765 firearm sales records to date that include American gun buyers’ personal information. Nearly 95% percent of them are retained in a digitized format, and the agency obtained 54.7 million of these records in fiscal 2021 alone. “The records are stored as digital images that can't be searched for identifying information. The repository is essentially a giant folder full of pictures of forms.“ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...gun-registry-missing-context/9304431002/The digitized forms can't be searched because they're prohibited by law from doing so. The variant of adobe that they have only requires a single keystroke to allow a digital search. They'll do it when they want to do it legal or otherwise.
|
|
|
Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, txcornhusker
|
![[Linked Image]](https://krdesignsco.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/thf2-e1712949002371.png)
