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How much more to safe pressure?
#7295973
09/24/18 05:20 PM
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TackDriver
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I done load development on the 7mm Magnum with RL19 and 139 SST Interbonds and came across a nice group at 65.5 grains at 3,090 fps. last week on a dry hot day. Nosler manual says 65.5 grains, WMLR primer and at 3,318 fps with a 140 grain bullet, of course different manuals may have different data, but this load is at 3,090 fps which is very slow. So I input all the data, including H20 case fill, in Quickload to see pressure and the max pressure is 61,000 psi and my 65.5 grain load pressure is 46,500 psi. It could be due to chamber size, slower burn rate on powder or maybe short bearing surface on the SST bullet. The 65.5 grain load shot nicely but I would like a little more speed. So I ran a ladder test this morning and it was very humid and wet:
66.0 - 3,062 fps 66.4 - 3,089 fps 66.8 - 3,116 fps 67.2 - 3,136 fps 67.6 - 3,176 fps 68.0 - 3,150 fps 68.4 - 3,184 fps 68.8 - 3,221 fps 69.2 - 3,239 fps
No pressure on brass. Book max is 65.5 grains and this ladder highest charge is 69.2 grains of RL-19 ( 3.7 grains over max ) and still have not achieved 3,300 fps yet. Is it possible to continue charges up to 70.2 grains which will be predicted at 56,000 psi (which is well under max pressure of 61,000 psi.) and right at the node of 1.1905 with a 26 inch barrel at a velocity of 3,300 fps.
What would you folks advise I do?
Last edited by TackDriver; 09/24/18 05:21 PM.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296012
09/24/18 05:47 PM
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ChadTRG42
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First, what brand of brass are you using? And what is your seating depth?
The data on Nosler's website is with Nosler brass. Nosler/Norma brass is fairly thick and heavy, so the internal case volume is generally less than a Winchester or Hornady brass, for example. So, the 65.5 grains in a Nosler case compared to a Win case, this would be a much lighter charge weight.
If your seating depth is seated out close to the lands, you are increasing the internal case volume. So you can run more powder in the case at the same pressure.
So, in combination of the brass and seating depth, you could easily need to add a few grains to get your speed up.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7296043
09/24/18 06:16 PM
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TackDriver
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First, what brand of brass are you using? And what is your seating depth?
The data on Nosler's website is with Nosler brass. Nosler/Norma brass is fairly thick and heavy, so the internal case volume is generally less than a Winchester or Hornady brass, for example. So, the 65.5 grains in a Nosler case compared to a Win case, this would be a much lighter charge weight.
If your seating depth is seated out close to the lands, you are increasing the internal case volume. So you can run more powder in the case at the same pressure.
So, in combination of the brass and seating depth, you could easily need to add a few grains to get your speed up. Chad, I am using Nosler brass and seated .003" off the lands.
Last edited by TackDriver; 09/24/18 06:17 PM.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296057
09/24/18 06:27 PM
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ChadTRG42
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296101
09/24/18 06:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
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kmon11
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Take one of your fired cases before resizing or decapping and weigh it then fill it with water and weigh it. The difference is your case capacity to use in quickloads.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7296121
09/24/18 07:16 PM
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TackDriver
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: kmon11]
#7296122
09/24/18 07:17 PM
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TackDriver
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Take one of your fired cases before resizing or decapping and weigh it then fill it with water and weigh it. The difference is your case capacity to use in quickloads.
I already done that, its 87.75 H20 case capacity. Average of 4 fired cases. Quickload standard H20 is 82.0
Last edited by TackDriver; 09/24/18 07:18 PM.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296126
09/24/18 07:20 PM
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ChadTRG42
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You're about .060" over book listed max, so that will reduce your pressures some. Hornady shows 64+ grains of powder, also for a max.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296174
09/24/18 07:58 PM
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TackDriver
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7296183
09/24/18 08:07 PM
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TackDriver
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You're about .060" over book listed max, so that will reduce your pressures some. Hornady shows 64+ grains of powder, also for a max. Thanks Chad.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296217
09/24/18 08:31 PM
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kmon11
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These are reloads and not loads in new brass I am guessing. If you have an over sized chamber or one on the large side of specs that will make a difference for sure. Not that uncommon for fireformed brass to require a bit more than new brass powder wise to get expected results as some energy is used in freforming the case and the resulting case volume.
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296222
09/24/18 08:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
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kmon11
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These are reloads and not loads in new brass I am guessing. If you have an over sized chamber or one on the large side of specs that will make a difference for sure. Not that uncommon for fireformed brass to require a bit more than new brass powder wise to get expected results as some energy is used in freforming the case and the resulting case volume.
I have a 264 Win mag that the chamber is a little larger than spec and get about 8 grains more water volume than with unfired cases. Brass life in that sucker sucks
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296766
09/25/18 11:32 AM
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Joined: May 2017
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Smokey Bear
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I done load development on the 7mm Magnum with RL19 and 139 SST Interbonds and came across a nice group at 65.5 grains at 3,090 fps. last week on a dry hot day. Nosler manual says 65.5 grains, WMLR primer and at 3,318 fps with a 140 grain bullet, of course different manuals may have different data, but this load is at 3,090 fps which is very slow. So I input all the data, including H20 case fill, in Quickload to see pressure and the max pressure is 61,000 psi and my 65.5 grain load pressure is 46,500 psi. It could be due to chamber size, slower burn rate on powder or maybe short bearing surface on the SST bullet. The 65.5 grain load shot nicely but I would like a little more speed. So I ran a ladder test this morning and it was very humid and wet:
66.0 - 3,062 fps 66.4 - 3,089 fps 66.8 - 3,116 fps 67.2 - 3,136 fps 67.6 - 3,176 fps 68.0 - 3,150 fps 68.4 - 3,184 fps 68.8 - 3,221 fps 69.2 - 3,239 fps
No pressure on brass. Book max is 65.5 grains and this ladder highest charge is 69.2 grains of RL-19 ( 3.7 grains over max ) and still have not achieved 3,300 fps yet. Is it possible to continue charges up to 70.2 grains which will be predicted at 56,000 psi (which is well under max pressure of 61,000 psi.) and right at the node of 1.1905 with a 26 inch barrel at a velocity of 3,300 fps.
What would you folks advise I do? My interpretation of your ladder test would be to put on the brakes at 67.6 grains. When using a chronograph to aid load work up, you can recognize when hinkey things start to happen with velocity. Prior to 67.6 grains, incremental velocity gains were in the 20's, then at 67.6 it bumps to 40 fps. Then at 68 grains you lose 26 fps. Reaching a point well over advertised max where adding more powder produces a loss of velocity would represent a likely sign of high pressure to me. Pushing beyond that I would expect to start experiencing the things that come with running too hot loads. Starting with, but not limited to reduced brass life. Good luck with your work up.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296792
09/25/18 12:00 PM
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wp75169
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Is the velocity loss between 67.6 and 68 from things starting to expand that we’re not before? I’ve always been curious about this phenomenon. At least that’s what I’m going to call it until I understand it.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: wp75169]
#7296818
09/25/18 12:27 PM
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Smokey Bear
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Is the velocity loss between 67.6 and 68 from things starting to expand that we’re not before? I’ve always been curious about this phenomenon. At least that’s what I’m going to call it until I understand it. I've heard multiple explanations but none of it was rooted in cement. I know which explanation I believe. I don't have enough evidence to open my mouth though and potentially make a fool of my self. Maybe someone here can shed some light.
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#7296832
09/25/18 12:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
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unclebubba
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Is the velocity loss between 67.6 and 68 from things starting to expand that we’re not before? I’ve always been curious about this phenomenon. At least that’s what I’m going to call it until I understand it. I've heard multiple explanations but none of it was rooted in cement. I know which explanation I believe. I don't have enough evidence to open my mouth though and potentially make a fool of my self. Maybe someone here can shed some light. now I'm curious. Can someone shed some light?
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: Smokey Bear]
#7296835
09/25/18 12:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
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J.G.
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Is the velocity loss between 67.6 and 68 from things starting to expand that we’re not before? I’ve always been curious about this phenomenon. At least that’s what I’m going to call it until I understand it. I've heard multiple explanations but none of it was rooted in cement. I know which explanation I believe. I don't have enough evidence to open my mouth though and potentially make a fool of my self. Maybe someone here can shed some light. Could have been a chronograph error. Could have been brass sized farther back (unlikely), could have been a primer ignition thing. Notice after that charge, velocity increases again.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296840
09/25/18 12:50 PM
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Cleric
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Could also just be a sample size issue. As I understand it was a sample size of one.
With any process there is variation and depending on variation in the load it could overlap. For example one point is 2000 fps with a variation it could be 1990-2010. The second node could be 2015 so it would be 2005 to 2025
You could pull a 2010 then 2005
It’s liklihood is a function of the statistics and range. As you get a larger sample the probability goes down
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296858
09/25/18 01:10 PM
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Jgraider
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I would not take Quickload as the gospel either. They are calculated guesstimates only. Lots of different things determine actual pressures.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: Jgraider]
#7296873
09/25/18 01:19 PM
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J.G.
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I would not take Quickload as the gospel either. They are calculated guesstimates only. Lots of different things determine actual pressures. Wholeheartedly agree.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: Jgraider]
#7296902
09/25/18 01:48 PM
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TackDriver
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I would not take Quickload as the gospel either. They are calculated guesstimates only. Lots of different things determine actual pressures. That is true, I use the manuals and start from there, work the ladder while watching pressure, which I have seen none all the way to the last charge, went home and then checked / tweaked on Quickload to see where I am at, but it seems I have a little more room for more because I have not hit pressure yet visually.
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: TackDriver]
#7296945
09/25/18 02:33 PM
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OkieDokie
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Here's a sign of over pressure.
Maybe Today. raptureready.com
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Re: How much more to safe pressure?
[Re: OkieDokie]
#7297040
09/25/18 03:45 PM
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TackDriver
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Here's a sign of over pressure. If you knew how to read pressure,,,,and when to see pressure.
Last edited by TackDriver; 09/25/18 03:51 PM.
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