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Size Matters, Smaller is Better
#7201163
06/18/18 06:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
For hunting out of a small box blind or pop-up. I don't like my barrel sticking 2 feet out the window when I'm trying to be discrete. This is a 26" barrel/long action, 22" barrel/Tikka action, and 16" barrel/TC Encore single shot. I'll take the shorty every time. What's ya'lls favorite little gun?
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201167
06/18/18 06:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907 |
The last 4-5 years I have hunted with a Rem 700 16" 300 blk out shorty. It's not a rifle that will turn heads in deer camp about how magnum you are! But I kill a lot of crap with it. I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it!
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201188
06/18/18 06:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083 |
My suppressor adds 10", but once you hunt suppressed that's the way you prefer to hunt. My 17" 7mm-08 A.I. is my favorite for most jobs. 16" LR-308 is "the sounder rifle". I'm not concerned with maneuvering inside a box blind, I'm concerned with maneuvering within the cab of the truck.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7201189
06/18/18 06:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
The last 4-5 years I have hunted with a Rem 700 16" 300 blk out shorty. It's not a rifle that will turn heads in deer camp about how magnum you are! But I kill a lot of crap with it. I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! I haven't shot a deer in 2 years, so I don't know how good I actually use it
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201194
06/18/18 06:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
duck & cover
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duck & cover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601 |
My favorite (and most kills) is a Remington 742 (or 750) Carbine in 308. Plenty of gun, short and light enough you'll have it with you all the time, plenty accurate for deer ranges;
I am also very fond of my Savage 24C, 22 LR over 20 gauge, it's the golf cart/tractor gun, and has earned it's keep very well. Wish I could find another one.
I have a Savage 11FV in 308, that I am using to research for my next article. It's now a 16inch suppressor ready heavy barrel, that will be interesting. May hunt with it this year.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: J.G.]
#7201197
06/18/18 06:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
My suppressor adds 10", but once you hunt suppressed that's the way you prefer to hunt. My 17" 7mm-08 A.I. is my favorite for most jobs. 16" LR-308 is "the sounder rifle". I'm not concerned with maneuvering inside a box blind, I'm concerned with maneuvering within the cab of the truck. I could put a suppressor on that TC and still be several inches shorter than a factory sporter rifle. I'll quit messing around and file my paperwork one of these days.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#7201203
06/18/18 06:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
My favorite (and most kills) is a Remington 742 (or 750) Carbine in 308. Plenty of gun, short and light enough you'll have it with you all the time, plenty accurate for deer ranges;
I am also very fond of my Savage 24C, 22 LR over 20 gauge, it's the golf cart/tractor gun, and has earned it's keep very well. Wish I could find another one.
I have a Savage 11FV in 308, that I am using to research for my next article. It's now a 16inch suppressor ready heavy barrel, that will be interesting. May hunt with it this year.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201204
06/18/18 06:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
That's not what she said…...
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: snake oil]
#7201206
06/18/18 07:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
That's not what she said…... Yes she did. Otherwise, I wouldn't have married the broad.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#7201211
06/18/18 07:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907 |
I have a Savage 11FV in 308, that I am using to research for my next article. It's now a 16inch suppressor ready heavy barrel, that will be interesting. May hunt with it this year. Let me know if you want some short barrel 308 ammo for it. I have developed some 308 short barrel ammo with 110, 125, 150 and 168 grain bullets to be optimized in the shorter barreled 308 rifles. I use a powder that gives more complete burn and to pick up some velocity for the shorter barrels.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)]
#7201247
06/18/18 07:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 35,090
Brother in-law
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 35,090 |
My favorite (and most kills) is a Remington 742 (or 750) Carbine in 308. Plenty of gun, short and light enough you'll have it with you all the time, plenty accurate for deer ranges;
I am also very fond of my Savage 24C, 22 LR over 20 gauge, it's the golf cart/tractor gun, and has earned it's keep very well. Wish I could find another one.
I have a Savage 11FV in 308, that I am using to research for my next article. It's now a 16inch suppressor ready heavy barrel, that will be interesting. May hunt with it this year. How much is a 24c worth?
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201261
06/18/18 07:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,691
BigPig
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,691 |
Did you sell your wife on the “smaller is better”?
Wade Dews, REALTOR ® Rendon Realty, LLC Frontline Real Estate Team www.RendonRealty.comWadeDews@gmail.com 214-356-2410 Up to 1% for closing costs for First Responders & Veterans Proudly partnered with Assist The Officer Foundation https://atodallas.org/
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201263
06/18/18 07:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,540
TexFlip
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,540 |
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: BigPig]
#7201264
06/18/18 07:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
Did you sell your wife on the “smaller is better”? Sold her, paid her to lie....same same.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: TexFlip]
#7201266
06/18/18 07:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
Nice. The last one is badazz.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201300
06/18/18 08:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 35,090
Brother in-law
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 35,090 |
I’ll keep all my rifles less than average
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201325
06/18/18 08:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755
ccoker
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755 |
yep, I like short for hunting for sure as I too always run a can
Last edited by ccoker; 06/19/18 02:19 PM.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201331
06/18/18 08:48 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,782
txtrophy85
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 31,782 |
my handiest rifle is a 336 marlin.
My son has a handy Howa compact 7mm-08 with a 20" barrel that I like a lot too...handy little gun. The Remington model 7's were nice as well
I never have a problem with my regular sporter rifles with 22" barrels though. My 26" guns can get a little long inside the blind though
For it is not the quarry that we truly seek, but the adventure.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201342
06/18/18 08:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,364
Choctaw
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,364 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201361
06/18/18 09:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,691
BigPig
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,691 |
Next year I’ll have a 16 inch barrel Thompson in 460XVR with suppressor. It’s going to be a 325 grain lead slinging beast.
Wade Dews, REALTOR ® Rendon Realty, LLC Frontline Real Estate Team www.RendonRealty.comWadeDews@gmail.com 214-356-2410 Up to 1% for closing costs for First Responders & Veterans Proudly partnered with Assist The Officer Foundation https://atodallas.org/
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201377
06/18/18 09:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127 |
I love short little guns. My little 300BLK SBR is probably my favorite gun I own and is awesome for hunting with the thermal. It's a tad over 20" over all with the little micro stock on it.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Choctaw]
#7201419
06/18/18 10:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201423
06/18/18 10:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,087
jakebunch
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,087 |
That Browning lever .308 is hard to beat for punch in a compact package.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: J.G.]
#7201442
06/18/18 10:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,540
TexFlip
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,540 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here. If you're hunting with it, it's a hunting rifle.
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7201499
06/18/18 11:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502 |
Let me know if you want some short barrel 308 ammo for it. I have developed some 308 short barrel ammo with 110, 125, 150 and 168 grain bullets to be optimized in the shorter barreled 308 rifles. I use a powder that gives more complete burn and to pick up some velocity for the shorter barrels. Is that powder included in these two comparisons? Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler PART SP 16329
Useable Case Capaci: 50.085 grain H2O = 3.252 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-15 105.6 48.8 3.16 2721 96.0 62000 13146 0.833
Hodgdon H4895 101.8 47.0 3.05 2711 97.2 62000 12901 0.834
Alliant AR-Comp 100.8 45.0 2.92 2711 100.0 62000 11467 0.831
Hodgdon H335 92.6 46.7 3.02 2695 99.5 62000 12239 0.832
IMR 8208 XBR 100.2 46.3 3.00 2682 97.9 62000 12298 0.832
Hodgdon VARGET 107.7 48.1 3.12 2679 95.7 62000 12480 0.827
IMR 4064 108.6 47.4 3.07 2676 96.1 62000 12359 0.830
Ramshot TAC 99.3 49.4 3.20 2665 93.5 62000 12499 0.833
Ramshot X-Terminator 96.9 47.8 3.10 2658 96.5 62000 12171 0.835
IMR 4451 Enduron 109.6 50.0 3.24 2654 91.0 62000 12399 0.828
Hodgdon Benchmark 98.9 45.0 2.91 2645 98.5 62000 11717 0.834
Alliant Reloder-7 89.7 40.1 2.60 2610 100.0 62000 10487 0.845
IMR 4227 85.6 36.2 2.34 2563 100.0 62000 9640 0.832
Accurate 4100 70.2 33.5 2.17 2468 100.0 62000 8494 0.850
Maxam CSB 1 78.9 21.4 1.38 2053 100.0 62000 5281 0.892
Hodgdon Clays 85.0 18.8 1.22 1986 100.0 62000 5029 0.892 Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler PART SP 16329
Useable Case Capaci: 50.085 grain H2O = 3.252 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-15 105.6 48.8 3.16 2986 98.6 62000 8161 1.065
Hodgdon H4895 101.8 47.0 3.05 2972 99.3 62000 7963 1.068
Hodgdon H335 92.6 46.7 3.02 2942 100.0 62000 7403 1.067
Alliant AR-Comp 100.8 45.0 2.92 2941 100.0 62000 6838 1.066
Hodgdon VARGET 107.7 48.1 3.12 2935 98.4 62000 7797 1.063
IMR 8208 XBR 100.2 46.3 3.00 2933 99.6 62000 7549 1.069
IMR 4064 108.6 47.4 3.07 2930 98.6 62000 7664 1.067
Ramshot TAC 99.3 49.4 3.20 2924 96.8 62000 7866 1.071
IMR 4451 Enduron 109.6 50.0 3.24 2913 94.7 62000 7868 1.067
Ramshot X-Terminator 96.9 47.8 3.10 2910 98.8 62000 7554 1.074
Hodgdon Benchmark 98.9 45.0 2.91 2887 99.8 62000 7175 1.075
Alliant Reloder-7 89.7 40.1 2.60 2829 100.0 62000 6302 1.089
IMR 4227 85.6 36.2 2.34 2769 100.0 62000 5812 1.082
Accurate 4100 70.2 33.5 2.17 2657 100.0 62000 5126 1.110
Maxam CSB 1 78.9 21.4 1.38 2195 100.0 62000 3212 1.205
Hodgdon Clays 85.0 18.8 1.22 2126 100.0 62000 3091 1.216 Amongst the powders in these results, there is a bit of leapfrogging, but nothing significant.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201502
06/18/18 11:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,168
scottfromdallas
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,168 |
Here are two of my shorty Rugers. 6.8 SPC Ranch and a 308 RSI. Both have 18.5" barrels. They are easy carrying lightweight truck, blind, timber rifles. I also have the Portuguese hammer. It's Garvey's favorite. Finally a 6.8 SPC AR that I used to kill a monster whitetail.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#7201506
06/18/18 11:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
Here are two of my shorty Rugers. 6.8 SPC Ranch and a 308 RSI. Both have 18.5" barrels. They are easy carrying lightweight truck, blind, timber rifles. I also have the Portuguese hammer. It's Garvey's favorite. Finally a 6.8 SPC AR that I used to kill a monster whitetail. That Ranch Rifle is sweet!
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201516
06/18/18 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,168
scottfromdallas
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 5,168 |
That Ranch Rifle is sweet!
I think it would be my favorite rifle if I could get it to shoot close to MOA. Maybe one day I will find the right powder/bullet combo. For now it's a 2-3 MOA rifle I use when I know my shots won't be over 100 yards. It's a good woods rifle, I have accepted it's limitations and just enjoy it.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201519
06/18/18 11:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502 |
In the deepest darkest recesses of my memory, it seems as thought here used to be some outfit that offered accurizing for the Ranch rifles. Maybe there still is. If you like the rifle that much, it might be worth it.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: scottfromdallas]
#7201520
06/18/18 11:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
That Ranch Rifle is sweet!
I think it would be my favorite rifle if I could get it to shoot close to MOA. Maybe one day I will find the right powder/bullet combo. For now it's a 2-3 MOA rifle I use when I know my shots won't be over 100 yards. It's a good woods rifle, I have accepted it's limitations and just enjoy it. Hell yeah.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201550
06/19/18 12:10 AM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 737
Treinta-Treinta
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 737 |
Get rid of the blind and its no problem. I’ve seen so many folk sit in a blind over a corn feeder with their face stuck in a device. I even saw one guy using hand sanitizer and wearing a mask for cedar pollen. Its like not even enjoying nature to me. People consume too many soy products and hormones from milk these days.
Last edited by Treinta-Treinta; 06/19/18 12:16 AM.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201717
06/19/18 04:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,432
Big Fitz
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,432 |
The wife calls me magnum...but I don't get to shoot very often
I was wrong...on anything technical. Fitz............. is right, ya know............
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201739
06/19/18 06:31 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 437
LSCG
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 437 |
30-30 or a good .44 works pretty well in tight spaces.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201744
06/19/18 07:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,177
DH3
Pro Tracker
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Pro Tracker
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,177 |
My short rig...
Old age and treachery beats youth and stupid every time!
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: J.G.]
#7201881
06/19/18 01:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,364
Choctaw
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,364 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here. I know. I'm a very bad man. Very, very bad.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: J.G.]
#7201915
06/19/18 02:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755
ccoker
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here. I am in trouble then
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Choctaw]
#7201926
06/19/18 02:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here. I know. I'm a very bad man. Very, very bad. My reply has been "there are piles of dead animals, that were at the end of an AR, that would disagree".
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201930
06/19/18 02:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
I have two contenders with 16" barrels one in .223 and one in .17 Rem. centerfire. That .223 has probably killed as many pigs as any gun in Tx.....Wish I was smart enough to post pics.
Last edited by snake oil; 06/19/18 02:39 PM.
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201942
06/19/18 02:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907 |
RR, no, the powder I use is not listed in your results. The powders you listed cover a very broad array, and include some powders you would not use for a 308.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7201982
06/19/18 03:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,691
BigPig
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 22,691 |
My favorite short hunting gun. S&W 460XVR 8 3/4 Barrel. Pushes a 275 grain bullet to 1900 FPS at the muzzle, soon to be pushing 325 grains around 2000-2100 FPS. Im good out to 100 yards with about a 4 inch group on a rest.
Wade Dews, REALTOR ® Rendon Realty, LLC Frontline Real Estate Team www.RendonRealty.comWadeDews@gmail.com 214-356-2410 Up to 1% for closing costs for First Responders & Veterans Proudly partnered with Assist The Officer Foundation https://atodallas.org/
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: snake oil]
#7201999
06/19/18 03:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
I have two contenders with 16" barrels one in .223 and one in .17 Rem. centerfire. That .223 has probably killed as many pigs as any gun in Tx.....Wish I was smart enough to post pics. Can you text pics? If so, I'll PM you my number and post them from my phone.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202032
06/19/18 04:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: snake oil]
#7202040
06/19/18 04:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202048
06/19/18 04:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127 |
If I had your number I'd sell it to spam bots!!
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: J.G.]
#7202053
06/19/18 04:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,364
Choctaw
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,364 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here. I know. I'm a very bad man. Very, very bad. My reply has been "there are piles of dead animals, that were at the end of an AR, that would disagree". You speak the truth.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202054
06/19/18 04:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
For snake oil- the one on top is the .17.
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: KRoyal]
#7202059
06/19/18 04:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
If I had your number I'd sell it to spam bots!! You can have my number bro. It's 903-513-GO-F-URSLEF-KYLE
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202060
06/19/18 04:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755
ccoker
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755 |
my little friend with my son from a few weeks ago.. he was like "dad, I REALLY like this gun" He has a tendency to try to make my toys his own.. I was in his room last night and commented on how 3 of my guitars ended up there!
Last edited by ccoker; 06/19/18 04:30 PM.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202074
06/19/18 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
Thanks again Jeremy......
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: snake oil]
#7202078
06/19/18 04:40 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
Thanks again Jeremy...... Yes sir
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202084
06/19/18 04:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610
JTPinTX
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610 |
Handy little truck gun. 16" Encore 223, shorter with the can than my daughters 18" CZ-527 without the can on it. FullSizeR by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/156517515@N04/][/url], on Flickr
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202087
06/19/18 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759
snake oil
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,759 |
"You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas".
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202089
06/19/18 04:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127 |
If I had your number I'd sell it to spam bots!! You can have my number bro. It's 903-513-GO-F-URSLEF-KYLE
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: J.G.]
#7202090
06/19/18 04:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,560
garyrapp55
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,560 |
I like my ARS because I can quickly adjust the stocks to handle different situations. ARs are not hunting rifles according to some here. Poor cave dwellers, froze in the winter, sweatin all summer, and strugglin to kill a pile of hogs before they are out of sight. You should rescue them.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202110
06/19/18 05:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502 |
RR, no, the powder I use is not listed in your results. The powders you listed cover a very broad array, and include some powders you would not use for a 308. I KNOW that some of those powders would never be used. I just let QL do what QL does. What I would like to know is what powder is going to give significant gains in a shorter barrel. While it's possible to use a powder so slow that you don't get the full effect from it, I have never seen QL results that show significant velocity gains over the powders that yield the highest velocities in a longer barrel using a faster powder in a shorter barrel. I can see a faster powder being a better choice in a short barrel due to reduced flash and blast, but higher velocities just don't happen as far as I know...at least not in barrels between 26 and 16 inches. In an 8- or 10-inch barrel---maybe, that's not something I have explored.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202166
06/19/18 05:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907 |
Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Brother in-law]
#7202189
06/19/18 06:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601
sig226fan (Rguns.com)
duck & cover
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duck & cover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601 |
Depends on if I am the buyer or the seller??? seriously it is hard to tell, market is so small there's not much to base it on, I gave 250, I've seen some go to 350, a true 24c with the stock intact wouldbe 300+
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202227
06/19/18 06:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083
J.G.
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,083 |
Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
There you go with all that real world range data, again.
800 Yard Steel Range Precision Rifle Instruction Memberships and Classes Available
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202267
06/19/18 06:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 43,769
Stub
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 43,769 |
"Size Matters, Smaller is Better" Thats what he said
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Stub]
#7202273
06/19/18 07:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
"Size Matters, Smaller is Better" Thats what he said
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Stub]
#7202275
06/19/18 07:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,416
SnakeWrangler
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,416 |
"Size Matters, Smaller is Better" Thats what he said
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ccoker]
#7202447
06/19/18 09:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,540
TexFlip
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,540 |
my little friend with my son from a few weeks ago.. he was like "dad, I REALLY like this gun" He has a tendency to try to make my toys his own.. I was in his room last night and commented on how 3 of my guitars ended up there! How's that new ammo perform?
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202483
06/19/18 09:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755
ccoker
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755 |
see dead pigs first one, DRT second one, hit a little low in the neck ran 30 yards
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202506
06/19/18 10:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502 |
Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
Well, that's interesting. I have run the two scenarios and was surprised at some of what I saw...I never noticed some of the jockeying around you see further down the list when barrel lengths are changed, so I'll concede at least a part of the point. But, the powders that will give TOP velocities (provided you can get enough of it into the case) stay at the top of the list with either barrel length with only minor variances in the order of velocity yield. I guess that just doesn't hold up when you get down to the more "intermediate" velocity yields. I also see that taking gas port pressure into account will pretty much force the omission of some of those top velocity producers (but an adjustable gas block might open some doors if you're willing to put up with the extra blast and flash of the slow burners). Thanks for the explanation.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202525
06/19/18 10:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907
ChadTRG42
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 18,907 |
You're welcome! Cramming a bunch of slower powder into a case at max pressure will still yield high velocities. But at some point there becomes an issue when you go to a shorter barrel and shoot it in an AR suppressed. Those rounds get a rifle VERY dirty real quick. Honestly, it's a trial and error at the range to see what works and applying it to the field.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202558
06/19/18 11:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502
RiverRider
THF Trophy Hunter
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THF Trophy Hunter
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,502 |
Absolutely agree with that. QL can't predict or calculate accuracy, but it sure is handy for harvesting hunches and staying occupied when you have time to kill. I can't find a "suppressor fouling" column in my QL either.
"Arguing with you always makes me thirsty." -Augustus McRae
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: RiverRider]
#7202602
06/19/18 11:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,442
kmon11
junior
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junior
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,442 |
Absolutely agree with that. QL can't predict or calculate accuracy, but it sure is handy for harvesting hunches and staying occupied when you have time to kill. I can't find a "suppressor fouling" column in my QL either. Sounds like a request for feature
lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true Mainstream news might be fun to watch
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7202691
06/20/18 01:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,176
Korean Redneck
Extreme Tracker
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Extreme Tracker
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,176 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left.
I'm a dude who likes long barrels!
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: Korean Redneck]
#7202696
06/20/18 01:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left. Man, I hate to stereotype but.....Asian
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202719
06/20/18 02:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left. Man, I hate to stereotype but.....Asian
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: KRoyal]
#7202818
06/20/18 10:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,416
SnakeWrangler
THF Celebrity
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THF Celebrity
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 65,416 |
I think it's not the size of your package, but how you use it! That's what my ex used to tell up until the day she left. Man, I hate to stereotype but.....Asian Korean Redneck - Asian.....get it.......
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored] Actually, BBC is pretty damn good "You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7202928
06/20/18 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127
KRoyal
Texoma Legend
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Texoma Legend
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 26,127 |
Oh I get it! I've met him at one of the THF shooting comps. That was pretty funny but didn't wan to laugh.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: KRoyal]
#7202932
06/20/18 01:16 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 27,891
skinnerback
THF Celebrity Chef
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THF Celebrity Chef
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 27,891 |
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ChadTRG42]
#7203001
06/20/18 02:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610
JTPinTX
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 610 |
So, taking this into consideration, what powder(s) would you recommend trying in a 14.5" piston driven AR (suppressed, SiCo Omega), with 62-65 grain bullets? I am currently using Benchmark, LC brass, and CCI 450 primers. It works pretty good, but could be cleaner. Ok, so let's "calculate" using QL. And I say calculate, because QL gets you in the ball park, as you probably know. (My field data and field results show an even better picture with velocity gains with faster powder in the same weapon).
Varget is a great powder for the 308. It is commonly used for maximum velocity in the 308. To pick up speeds in a short barrel, shooters often want a lighter bullet, so let's use the 125 grain Hornady SST bullet I have been shooting. I have a powder I use for this lighter bullet for my SBR or shorter barrel rifles, especially for AR's shooting suppressed. My "mystery powder" is much faster burning than Varget. Let's run the numbers.
In a 22", 308 Win bolt gun with 125 SST at 62K psi, I "calculated" 50.1 gains of VARGET shows 3111 fps and 95.7% burn rate (4.3% unburned). Put this same load in a 16" barrel, and you get 2886 fps, and 92.8% burn. So, there is about 7% of unburned powder coming back into the action. In an AR-10 platform, the gas port is 12" away and would have 17,300+ PSI at the gas port.
Now, if you run my "mystery powder" at 62K psi and 125 grain SST, I'm using much less powder than the 50.1 grains, in a 22" barrel I show 3043 fps, 99.8% burn rate. In a 16" barrel, I'm "calculating" 2841 fps and 98.8% burn rate. But my field data is running another 80-100 fps faster than this QL calculation is, which tells me it's even more efficient than that. And at the gas port 12" away from the chamber, the pressure is 14,900 psi, which is 2400 psi less than the Varget load.
What does all this mean? A faster burning powder engineered for short barrel rifles will have more velocity than a slower burning powder, less gas port pressure, use much less powder, and have a more complete powder burn for keeping your weapon much cleaner. We have already seen these results in our AR's from our night hunting. It's a win win.
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7204660
06/22/18 02:08 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,031
Vern1
Veteran Tracker
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Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,031 |
Kinda tricky and LOUD to shoot out of a blind but is hell off the tractor, 4 wheeler or Mule.
Cheers, Vern1 Texans since The Old 300 in 1824 NRA Lifetime Member
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: ImTheReasonDovesMourn]
#7205743
06/23/18 03:20 AM
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 262
easttxhoghunter
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 262 |
41" total length, will be 2 to 3" shorter when the Crux Nemesis30 arrives. 41Mag, can fire quick double action at 25yds and put all in bullseye. POF 308 w/16" barrel, 38" total length.
Last edited by easttxhoghunter; 06/23/18 03:41 AM.
NRA Life Member
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Re: Size Matters, Smaller is Better
[Re: easttxhoghunter]
#7205907
06/23/18 05:14 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991
ImTheReasonDovesMourn
OP
Snarky Mark
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OP
Snarky Mark
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,991 |
41" total length, will be 2 to 3" shorter when the Crux Nemesis30 arrives. 41Mag, can fire quick double action at 25yds and put all in bullseye. POF 308 w/16" barrel, 38" total length. Damn bro, why don't you buy a better thermal scope? JK
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.
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Moderated by bigbob_ftw, CCBIRDDOGMAN, Chickenman, Derek, DeRico, Duck_Hunter, hetman, jeh7mmmag, JustWingem, kmon11, kry226, kwrhuntinglab, Payne, pertnear, rifleman, sig226fan (Rguns.com), Superduty, TreeBass, txcornhusker
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