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#7195022 - 06/11/18 02:14 PM Lab Coloring?
dkershen Offline


Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 18523
Loc: Denton/Argyle
Curios question. My neighbors silver lab dropped a litter of puppies sired by his black male. She had 4 silvers and 5 blacks. Is there a chance that the black puppies could sire silver pups down the road (when bred back to another black?), or is black the dominant gene that will always override on the coloring?

BTW.. if anyone's looking for some pups, he's got a few black puppies still avail.


Edited by dkershen (06/11/18 04:58 PM)
Edit Reason: educated
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#7195071 - 06/11/18 03:25 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: dkershen]
BradyBuck Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5789
Loc: Abilene, TX
Both parents have to carry the dilute gene. So yes if they were bred back to another black dog that carried the dilute gene they could have dilute pups.

Now on to another issue..,

Why purposely breed for a known breed fault?

On top of that you have to lie on the registration to have a silver, charcoal or champagne dog registered.

The pups are not purebred.

Per the AKC and LRC "The Labrador Retriever does not carry the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for the silver color"



Edited by BradyBuck (06/11/18 03:33 PM)
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#7195134 - 06/11/18 04:55 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: BradyBuck]
dkershen Offline


Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 18523
Loc: Denton/Argyle
Originally Posted By: BradyBuck
Both parents have to carry the dilute gene. So yes if they were bred back to another black dog that carried the dilute gene they could have dilute pups.

Now on to another issue..,

Why purposely breed for a known breed fault?

On top of that you have to lie on the registration to have a silver, charcoal or champagne dog registered.

The pups are not purebred.

Per the AKC and LRC "The Labrador Retriever does not carry the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for the silver color"

Thanks for the education. Just read up on the "Silver" ruling by AKC and LRC. Seems to have been quite the dust up on this topic. My assumption then is that his silver bitch is registered as a chocolate.
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#7195189 - 06/11/18 05:52 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: dkershen]
BradyBuck Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5789
Loc: Abilene, TX
Originally Posted By: dkershen
Originally Posted By: BradyBuck
Both parents have to carry the dilute gene. So yes if they were bred back to another black dog that carried the dilute gene they could have dilute pups.

Now on to another issue..,

Why purposely breed for a known breed fault?

On top of that you have to lie on the registration to have a silver, charcoal or champagne dog registered.

The pups are not purebred.

Per the AKC and LRC "The Labrador Retriever does not carry the dilute gene dd that appears universally in the Weimaraner and is responsible for the silver color"

Thanks for the education. Just read up on the "Silver" ruling by AKC and LRC. Seems to have been quite the dust up on this topic. My assumption then is that his silver bitch is registered as a chocolate.


That's most likely the case. There is a lot of squabbling going on amongst breeders. The AKC is playing both sides. While they say "the dilute gene isn't present in the Labrador Retriever" in the same breath they say "just register them as chocolate".

They need to come out with a clear statement but there is money in it for them to register silvers.

My beef isn't with the dogs but with the fact that I believe all evidence points to that the dogs are not purebred and are being registered as such under a different color.

Most silver breeders don't do health testing and there are very very few that are successful in hunt tests and zero that are competitive in field trials.

I bust my butt to make sure I'm doing everything right. I bust my butt to make sure my dogs prove they are worthy to breed by doing all necessary health testing and proving they can work by earning titles. I make sure my dogs come from a long line of proven healthy working dogs. I have a ton of time and money invested and I will make very little money if at all on a litter of puppies.

Then you have breeders who just put two dogs together because of color and get the same price per pup???

Like i said...my issue isn't with the dogs. If you have a silver then by all means make it the best dog you can and I'm sure you'll be happy with it....but in the future maybe think a little bit more about it besides color when you get ready to purchase your next hunting buddy.

Color dilution alopecia is real, HD is real, EIC is real, PRA is real, CNM is real...all genetic diseases that plague the Labrador breed that can easily be tested for and avoided.
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#7195355 - 06/11/18 08:20 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: dkershen]
Cow_doc.308 Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ellis Co.
I've seen color dilution alopecia in a silver lab. It's not fixable....and they wanted to breed the dog. bang
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#7195382 - 06/11/18 09:03 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: dkershen]
scalebuster Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 11/25/10
Posts: 3143
Iíve only seen one silver lab. My cousins wife bought it. He has 2 fine black labs.
The silver isnít worth a [censored] and has skin problems.

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#7195410 - 06/11/18 09:38 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: BradyBuck]
nyalubwe Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 425
Loc: Montana
Originally Posted By: BradyBuck


Why purposely breed for a known breed fault?




Bingo!

Any time you breed for color or a certain confirmation quirk, potential performance falls off....

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#7195602 - 06/12/18 08:26 AM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: BradyBuck]
Cochise Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 4151
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: BradyBuck


My beef isn't with the dogs but with the fact that I believe all evidence points to that the dogs are not purebred and are being registered as such under a different color.



My beef is that people are being lied to. A "silver lab" does not exist. There exist weimaraners in shades of grey and labradors in black, chocolate, or shades of yellow. That's it. A silver lab" isn't a lab. It's a lab/weim mutt. People are uneducated and think they're getting some AKC registered pure bred lab and pay a premium for it. I blame the AKC for not taking a firm stance...I also blame dishonest breeders that register them as chocolate. IMO its diluting blood lines.

And yes I'm a purebred lab snob.

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#7195605 - 06/12/18 08:31 AM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: Cochise]
mattyg06 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 1416
Yes, as Cochise said these are not pure bred labradors. They are Labradors crossed to Weimaraners in the recent history of breeding.

If you want one of those I have no problem with it, the issue is people calling them pure bred litters. This isn't to fault the OP but just to highlight the science behind so called 'silver labs'.

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#7195742 - 06/12/18 10:45 AM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: Cochise]
BradyBuck Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5789
Loc: Abilene, TX
Originally Posted By: Cochise
Originally Posted By: BradyBuck


My beef isn't with the dogs but with the fact that I believe all evidence points to that the dogs are not purebred and are being registered as such under a different color.



My beef is that people are being lied to. A "silver lab" does not exist. There exist weimaraners in shades of grey and labradors in black, chocolate, or shades of yellow. That's it. A silver lab" isn't a lab. It's a lab/weim mutt. People are uneducated and think they're getting some AKC registered pure bred lab and pay a premium for it. I blame the AKC for not taking a firm stance...I also blame dishonest breeders that register them as chocolate. IMO its diluting blood lines.

And yes I'm a purebred lab snob.



The AKC needs to quit playing both sides.

They need to make a cut and dry statement stating "The dilute gene is not present in the Labrador Retriever breed and any dog that carries the dd gene is not purebred and should not be registered"

The LRC and AKC did put out a joint statement saying the dilute gene is not present in the breed but then tells people to register them as another color.

The AKC is only about the $$
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#7196865 - 06/13/18 04:24 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: dkershen]
Smokey Bear Offline
Tracker

Registered: 05/11/17
Posts: 617
Loc: Texas
As long as the AKC caters to the show ring crowd you will continue to see it. The telling moment will come when a silver or white lab shows up on stage at a registered AKC dog show. Unfortunately the lab has become a victim of its own burgeoning popularity.
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#7196928 - 06/13/18 05:23 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: Smokey Bear]
BradyBuck Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 10/18/07
Posts: 5789
Loc: Abilene, TX
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
As long as the AKC caters to the show ring crowd you will continue to see it. The telling moment will come when a silver or white lab shows up on stage at a registered AKC dog show. Unfortunately the lab has become a victim of its own burgeoning popularity.


I have to disagree with you a little bit here. The show breeders are even more furious that dilute dogs continue to be allowed to be registered. Any dilute color including silver, charcoal or champagne is an automatic DQ. A silver couldn't even get through the doors.

I've been in many conversations lately with show breeders and they are actually trying to come up with some ideas and are in talks with the LRC and AKC.

Now i do agree that the popularity of the breed has not been good for it.

The show side will at times breed dogs in my opinion with little regard for ability while at times the performance side breeds with little regard for conformation,



Edited by BradyBuck (06/13/18 05:56 PM)
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#7198189 - 06/14/18 10:41 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: BradyBuck]
Guy Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 28076
Loc: Lake X
BB, love your posts, you always nail it without the dog forum BS. up

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#7200569 - 06/17/18 07:05 PM Re: Lab Coloring? [Re: BradyBuck]
Smokey Bear Offline
Tracker

Registered: 05/11/17
Posts: 617
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: BradyBuck
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
As long as the AKC caters to the show ring crowd you will continue to see it. The telling moment will come when a silver or white lab shows up on stage at a registered AKC dog show. Unfortunately the lab has become a victim of its own burgeoning popularity.


I have to disagree with you a little bit here. The show breeders are even more furious that dilute dogs continue to be allowed to be registered. Any dilute color including silver, charcoal or champagne is an automatic DQ. A silver couldn't even get through the doors.

I've been in many conversations lately with show breeders and they are actually trying to come up with some ideas and are in talks with the LRC and AKC.

Now i do agree that the popularity of the breed has not been good for it.

The show side will at times breed dogs in my opinion with little regard for ability while at times the performance side breeds with little regard for conformation,



Fair enough Brady. If I'm wrong I can admit it. My opinions are heavily influenced by the performance side of the equation and will continue to be.
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