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#7162956 - 05/07/18 01:51 PM Question....
jrfan Offline
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 1127
Loc: Denton, Texas
So, I was listening to the MeatEater podcast on the way to the ranch Friday, and they brought up a scenario that apparently happened and I wanted to pose the question here.

A hunter in Pennsylvania "shot" a buck on public land during bow season. He did not recover the deer for 41 days (during rifle season), essentially all that was recovered was a skull and spine. When he found the deer, he tagged and it and it was ultimately deemed a new state record (or something along those lines). I am sure there is a lot more to this story, but these were the specifics given in the podcast.

The question that they argued was at what point is a deer "harvested" vs. "found"? Also, does a deer that was "found" deserve to be in the record books? Does this deer and/or hunter deserve to be placed into the record book?

I did a quick Google search and did not find any info on this particular story, so take the info given as hypothetical unless I can substantiate.
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#7162971 - 05/07/18 02:00 PM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
stxranchman Offline
Obie Juan Kenobi

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 53469
How would he prove that was the same deer he shot with his bow? He would have had to have found the arrow/broadhead still in the deer I would think. How does he know that his shot killed that deer within a reasonable time frame(less than 24 hrs or?)? Lot to prove with out anyway for him to do it. Did the deer live only to die from rut mortality or post rut mortality? Could have been another hunted wounded the same deer and it died from those wounds at a much later date. Lot of unanswered questions for me. Had he kept searching and found it within an allotted time(?) I can see it being killed and not found. For me I would not even consider it going into any record book if I could not find it within a reasonable time frame. That means I gave up on finding it within that time frame, so it would not be record worthy for me.
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#7162992 - 05/07/18 02:17 PM Re: Question.... [Re: stxranchman]
jrfan Offline
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 1127
Loc: Denton, Texas
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
How would he prove that was the same deer he shot with his bow? He would have had to have found the arrow/broadhead still in the deer I would think. How does he know that his shot killed that deer within a reasonable time frame(less than 24 hrs or?)? Lot to prove with out anyway for him to do it. Did the deer live only to die from rut mortality or post rut mortality? Could have been another hunted wounded the same deer and it died from those wounds at a much later date. Lot of unanswered questions for me. Had he kept searching and found it within an allotted time(?) I can see it being killed and not found. For me I would not even consider it going into any record book if I could not find it within a reasonable time frame. That means I gave up on finding it within that time frame, so it would not be record worthy for me.


I agree, a lot of unanswered questions. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was the same deer that was wounded. But, the deeper you get into this thing, the more questions you have. At least I do. So at what point does a deer become hunter harvested or simply found? One day, two days, a month??


Edited by jrfan (05/07/18 02:19 PM)
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#7163001 - 05/07/18 02:32 PM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
stxranchman Offline
Obie Juan Kenobi

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 53469
Originally Posted By: jrfan
Originally Posted By: stxranchman
How would he prove that was the same deer he shot with his bow? He would have had to have found the arrow/broadhead still in the deer I would think. How does he know that his shot killed that deer within a reasonable time frame(less than 24 hrs or?)? Lot to prove with out anyway for him to do it. Did the deer live only to die from rut mortality or post rut mortality? Could have been another hunted wounded the same deer and it died from those wounds at a much later date. Lot of unanswered questions for me. Had he kept searching and found it within an allotted time(?) I can see it being killed and not found. For me I would not even consider it going into any record book if I could not find it within a reasonable time frame. That means I gave up on finding it within that time frame, so it would not be record worthy for me.


I agree, a lot of unanswered questions. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was the same deer that was wounded. But, the deeper you get into this thing, the more questions you have. At least I do. So at what point does a deer become hunter harvested or simply found? One day, two days, a month??

For me that number would be when I exhausted all avenues of looking myself, with friends and with a dog(if legal). So it might be a few hours to several days depending on what I found for sign, areas the deer bedded, if I jumped the deer, etc. There is a lot of question I would need answered before I even considered that deer for any record book. With a 41 day period I just could not say without any doubt that the arrow is what killed that deer. Just a WAG but I am betting he videoed the hunt and had that proof. WAG though. But even then we have all seen videos of shots that look to be perfect only to never find the animal. TC pics later show that animal alive. Even was a TV hunting show that showed video of a buck shot "perfectly" behind the shoulder only to have the deer travel one mile or more to another TV hunter from the same show. He shot the buck and killed it. You could see the bloody spot on the buck when he walked in and started eating corn. IIRC it was Bone Collector show that I saw video footage of.
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#7163086 - 05/07/18 04:10 PM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
redchevy Offline
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Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 28490
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I would consider that found.
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#7163128 - 05/07/18 04:48 PM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
dkershen Online   content


Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 18961
Loc: Denton/Argyle
Whether a deer that was "found" deserves to be in the record books is a good question. B&C has always allowed a "found" rack to be entered into their record books, but requires it to be listed as "Picked Up" rather than harvested. In the case of finding a deer 41 days later... if there isn't some other evidence such as video of a mortal hit, I would think it would have to be labeled a "picked up" entry.
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#7163148 - 05/07/18 05:07 PM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
Double Naught Spy Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 05/18/11
Posts: 5805
Loc: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
I agree. Without photographic proof or video that he shot the deer, I would be hard pressed to believe that he should be in the record books for killing a deer that he found and has claimed it was one he shot previously.

Maybe he has a trail of documentation from the time of the event, lamenting how he shot and lost a deer of X features and then found said deer? That might give some credibility to the claim, but even then, who is to say that he ultimately killed it? Maybe it was actually killed by another hunter?
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#7163398 - 05/07/18 08:52 PM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
DallasSniper Offline
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Registered: 03/15/12
Posts: 444
I missed out on a record striper about 15 years ago because some guy found one floating and they gave it to him vs me who caught my fish...I was pissed!!
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#7163726 - 05/08/18 09:11 AM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
SherpaPhil Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 04/09/12
Posts: 232
Loc: Dallas
It was an interesting podcast. I think 41 days is too long. Even if hypothetically, he can prove he shot the deer, got it on camera, found his broadhead in it, etc. At some point, you are no longer "recovering" an animal you killed, but "finding" a dead deer. I don't know where that line is. 5-7 days for me, maybe?

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#7163789 - 05/08/18 10:09 AM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
BOBO the Clown Offline
decoy

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 43995
Loc: Metroplex
Boone and Crockett records were created to highlight animals and areas that exceeded the mark in management/conservation. Theoretically it takes animals/areas with great age class, nutrition and genetics to become book eligible.

The book is about the Animal not the Hunter. So it doesnít matter on recovery time. IMO

This highlights exactly why B&C record books is failing at its goal. No longer about the animal and itís all about the hunter



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#7163916 - 05/08/18 11:37 AM Re: Question.... [Re: BOBO the Clown]
colt.45 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/12
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Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Boone and Crockett records were created to highlight animals and areas that exceeded the mark in management/conservation. Theoretically it takes animals/areas with great age class, nutrition and genetics to become book eligible.

The book is about the Animal not the Hunter. So it doesnít matter on recovery time. IMO

This highlights exactly why B&C record books is failing at its goal. No longer about the animal and itís all about the hunter




Boone & Crockett.

bang Times have changed since thar days. Hunten tis become a Rich-mans Sport.
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#7164043 - 05/08/18 02:20 PM Re: Question.... [Re: BOBO the Clown]
jrfan Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 1127
Loc: Denton, Texas
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Boone and Crockett records were created to highlight animals and areas that exceeded the mark in management/conservation. Theoretically it takes animals/areas with great age class, nutrition and genetics to become book eligible.

The book is about the Animal not the Hunter. So it doesnít matter on recovery time. IMO

This highlights exactly why B&C record books is failing at its goal. No longer about the animal and itís all about the hunter




Ok. So this brings up yet another question. Assuming he shot it as reported during bow season and recovered it during rifle season, what record book should it go into, B&C or P&Y? Since it cannot be confirmed how the animal died.
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#7164057 - 05/08/18 02:35 PM Re: Question.... [Re: BOBO the Clown]
Nogalus Prairie Offline
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Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 25200
Loc: Corsicana
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Boone and Crockett records were created to highlight animals and areas that exceeded the mark in management/conservation. Theoretically it takes animals/areas with great age class, nutrition and genetics to become book eligible.

The book is about the Animal not the Hunter. So it doesnít matter on recovery time. IMO

This highlights exactly why B&C record books is failing at its goal. No longer about the animal and itís all about the hunter




You are absolutely right on the first part and absolutely wrong on the second part. If they were ďall about the hunterĒ they would have caved in long ago on issues like modifying their scoring system to a ďgross scoreĒ system and modified their rules to allow HF animals, electronics use, and a host of other shortcuts. Would certainly be in their pecuniary interest to do so.

Instead, they have remained steadfast on these issues in the face of massive pressure to change. Others have filled the void (SCI, BuckMasters, etc.). You yourself (like many others) call them non-inclusive/divisive ďelitistsĒ all the time on these very issues.

Now you say just the opposite, that they kowtow to hunters.

If it were about hunters, they wouldnít even allow pick-ups - yet several world records are pick-ups, including the new WR Rocky Mountain bighorn.
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#7164060 - 05/08/18 02:37 PM Re: Question.... [Re: jrfan]
BOBO the Clown Offline
decoy

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 43995
Loc: Metroplex
Originally Posted By: jrfan
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Boone and Crockett records were created to highlight animals and areas that exceeded the mark in management/conservation. Theoretically it takes animals/areas with great age class, nutrition and genetics to become book eligible.

The book is about the Animal not the Hunter. So it doesnít matter on recovery time. IMO

This highlights exactly why B&C record books is failing at its goal. No longer about the animal and itís all about the hunter




Ok. So this brings up yet another question. Assuming he shot it as reported during bow season and recovered it during rifle season, what record book should it go into, B&C or P&Y? Since it cannot be confirmed how the animal died.


Boone and Crockett doesnít restrict weapon, only Pope and Young. A lot of archers will see which panel will give them highest score.

I guess itís up to wether Pope and Young wants your entry money or not.

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#7164069 - 05/08/18 02:51 PM Re: Question.... [Re: BOBO the Clown]
jrfan Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 1127
Loc: Denton, Texas
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted By: jrfan
Originally Posted By: BOBO the Clown
Boone and Crockett records were created to highlight animals and areas that exceeded the mark in management/conservation. Theoretically it takes animals/areas with great age class, nutrition and genetics to become book eligible.

The book is about the Animal not the Hunter. So it doesnít matter on recovery time. IMO

This highlights exactly why B&C record books is failing at its goal. No longer about the animal and itís all about the hunter





Ok. So this brings up yet another question. Assuming he shot it as reported during bow season and recovered it during rifle season, what record book should it go into, B&C or P&Y? Since it cannot be confirmed how the animal died.


Boone and Crockett doesnít restrict weapon, only Pope and Young. A lot of archers will see which panel will give them highest score.

I guess itís up to wether Pope and Young wants your entry money or not.





I did not realize that. Thanks.


Edited by jrfan (05/08/18 02:52 PM)
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