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#7160759 - 05/04/18 09:18 PM 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress
jorge Offline
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Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
I need an AR guru it's been to two smiths and Ive scratched my head and tried everything my brain can think of.

I have a Palmetto Ar-10 that is short stroking and it's driving me nuts. I swapped barrels from the mid length factory 308 to a wilson combat 6.5 Creedmoor rifle gas length. I have a tack driving single shot semiauto. At first I ran the buffer and spring that comes with a factory PSA pa-10 lower I was worried about over gassing. Wouldn't run. Then I tried both armalite and dpms rifle length tubes, no dice. Sent off to smith # 1 he said port was too small opened it up to .095" with no adjustable gas block (wide open) problem persists. Runs semi 1out of 15 times for 2-3 rounds at this point. Swapped to a lighter buffer and spring and still no dice. Sent to smith #2 said he thought it should be over gassed he's stumped. So I'm at my witts end, and need some help. don't want to send it back to wilson as it likes the same load as bolt gun and shoots easily sub moa.

Thanks.
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#7160770 - 05/04/18 09:26 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
Tye Offline
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Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 3398
Loc: Eastland county
I built up a 16" 6.5 Creed using a Wilson barrel and my buddy built an 18" 6.5 creed using a Wilson barrel as well. Both guns have SLR gas blocks and both will not lock to the back with the gas block all the way open. They run fine suppressed. I'm guessing the port isn't big enough? We didn't drill them out. But I don't plan on shooting unsupressed....sorry...not much help. One thing in common is the Wilson barrels.
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#7160788 - 05/04/18 09:48 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: Tye]
Misfire Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 780
Loc: Hood County
Originally Posted By: Tye
I built up a 16" 6.5 Creed using a Wilson barrel and my buddy built an 18" 6.5 creed using a Wilson barrel as well. Both guns have SLR gas blocks and both will not lock to the back with the gas block all the way open. They run fine suppressed. I'm guessing the port isn't big enough? We didn't drill them out. But I don't plan on shooting unsupressed....sorry...not much help. One thing in common is the Wilson barrels.


Tye, our rifles function, cycle and eject reliably..they just donít lock back on an empty mag when running unsuppressed. I reached out to Wilson about the issue. I went back and forth with one of their techs and after realizing Iím running the exact gas block they recommend, they eventually said they thought it was the JP internals that was the problem. Wilson offered to look the rifle over and troubleshoot it if I wanted to mail it in. I declined since it works fine suppressd.

Jorge, if you havenít already, you might try a different/adjustable gas block. The gas block you are running could be an issue. Even if you drilled out the barrel the gas block could be too constrictive. Something else to check is to make absolutely sure that the gas holes line up. If they arenít lining up properly you can be undergassed. Basic stuff but worth mentioning.

Iím considering one of those expensive JP buffers that have the adjustable weights in an effort to ďtuneĒ the rifle. I havenít played with mine much but my issues donít sound as bad as yours.



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#7160791 - 05/04/18 09:50 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
ImTheReasonDovesMourn Online   content
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Registered: 08/04/12
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Loc: Greenville, TX
I would've tried an adjustable gas block before I bought any other gas tubes or let someone drill on my barrel. If you're trying to adjust the gas flow, why not? That's why there's a market for adjustable gas blocks.
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#7160797 - 05/04/18 10:00 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
jorge Offline
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Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
Sorry for not including I tried an adjustable gas block as well and no dice at any setting
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#7160801 - 05/04/18 10:04 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
jorge Offline
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Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
Even its twin in 308 can get finicky depending on load but it's not close to the point this 6.5cm is. That and I'm Not tackling it till this 6.5 gets running right.
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Jorge Sakai
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#7160806 - 05/04/18 10:11 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7963
Loc: Wise Co.
Your spring & buffer are too heavy still, or the ammo you're using just isn't driving that gas system with enough oomph. What else is there??

With a rifle length gas tube you're tapping off gas as the pressure is in steep decline, compared to mid-length or carbine-length gas systems.. I'd look into getting a lighter still buffer and spring first, and then I'd be looking at ammo. I'm thinking heavy bullets, which usually go with slower burning powder---and more of it, meaning more gas produced. Pressures can hold a little higher and longer down the bore when slower burning propellants are used.

Every bit of that is pure educated guess, though. Maybe someone at AR15.com has a better answer. That's where I'd take it.
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#7160812 - 05/04/18 10:17 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
HandgunHTR Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 134
Loc: Cypress, TX
Ok, a couple of questions for you. I realize that you had a couple of smiths look at it, but I am still going to ask the basic questions.

1. Are you sure that the gas block (or gas port for that matter) is in the right location? It might make sense to measure where the gas port is and ensure that the port on the barrel and the port on the block are aligned.

2. Are you sure that you are short stroking and not so over-gassed that the bolt is slamming back and then forward so fast it doesn't pick up another round? Where is your brass ejecting at (clock position)? If you single load with a mag in, does the bolt lock back?

3. Have you tried different magazines? It could very well be a mag problem, not a gas problem.

Those are some things to look at.
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#7160829 - 05/04/18 10:43 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
Sneaky Offline
The "Grouch"

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18779
Loc: Winters
Mine does this when itís not lubed enough. I would imagine youíve tried that, but itís all I know of.
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#7160833 - 05/04/18 10:47 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: RiverRider]
jorge Offline
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Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Your spring & buffer are too heavy still, or the ammo you're using just isn't driving that gas system with enough oomph. What else is there??

With a rifle length gas tube you're tapping off gas as the pressure is in steep decline, compared to mid-length or carbine-length gas systems.. I'd look into getting a lighter still buffer and spring first, and then I'd be looking at ammo. I'm thinking heavy bullets, which usually go with slower burning powder---and more of it, meaning more gas produced. Pressures can hold a little higher and longer down the bore when slower burning propellants are used.

Every bit of that is pure educated guess, though. Maybe someone at AR15.com has a better answer. That's where I'd take it.


It's puzzling and yesterday I shot it and it was discussed that there isn't enough pressure since it's a rifle length and 18" barrel. Thing is I'm using 40gr of H4350 which isnt anemic.
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Jorge Sakai
D.R.T. Outfitters

Contact #: 210-837-6742
GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

"Fresh of a mofo's back and I'm feeling homesick" ~ R. Schmidt

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#7160837 - 05/04/18 10:55 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: HandgunHTR]
jorge Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
Originally Posted By: HandgunHTR
Ok, a couple of questions for you. I realize that you had a couple of smiths look at it, but I am still going to ask the basic questions.

1. Are you sure that the gas block (or gas port for that matter) is in the right location? It might make sense to measure where the gas port is and ensure that the port on the barrel and the port on the block are aligned.

2. Are you sure that you are short stroking and not so over-gassed that the bolt is slamming back and then forward so fast it doesn't pick up another round? Where is your brass ejecting at (clock position)? If you single load with a mag in, does the bolt lock back?

3. Have you tried different magazines? It could very well be a mag problem, not a gas problem.

Those are some things to look at.


1. Myself and 4 other people have spent way too much time making sure it's aligned. I am fairly certain gas holes are right over each other BUT pulled the gas block off today and i had carbon build up significantly only on one side of the gas port Not concentric. So maybe not a true circle and have a bit of gas escaping. And I did mic distance and I'm +/- .025 misaligned.

2. According to shooting buddies it's short stroking but I've wondered if it's to fast. 3 o clock but yesterday it was throwing maybe 2 feet away.

3. Yep several types of mags


Edited by jorge (05/04/18 10:57 PM)

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#7160841 - 05/04/18 11:10 PM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
ImTheReasonDovesMourn Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 1987
Loc: Greenville, TX
Originally Posted By: jorge
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Your spring & buffer are too heavy still, or the ammo you're using just isn't driving that gas system with enough oomph. What else is there??

With a rifle length gas tube you're tapping off gas as the pressure is in steep decline, compared to mid-length or carbine-length gas systems.. I'd look into getting a lighter still buffer and spring first, and then I'd be looking at ammo. I'm thinking heavy bullets, which usually go with slower burning powder---and more of it, meaning more gas produced. Pressures can hold a little higher and longer down the bore when slower burning propellants are used.

Every bit of that is pure educated guess, though. Maybe someone at AR15.com has a better answer. That's where I'd take it.


It's puzzling and yesterday I shot it and it was discussed that there isn't enough pressure since it's a rifle length and 18" barrel. Thing is I'm using 40gr of H4350 which isnt anemic.


I think that powder charge is definitely light. I'm using up to 3 grains more powder with 140s in my bolt rifles and up to 5 grains more with 129s, with no pressure signs.


Edited by ImTheReasonDovesMourn (05/04/18 11:12 PM)
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Originally Posted By: KRoyal
Haha yea I polished that thing for hours.

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#7160867 - 05/05/18 12:34 AM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
jorge Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: Lake Jackson, TX
even factory 140 hornady blk and 129 superformance won't cycle. I'll load up a ladder and see how it goes and if I can find a faster node


Edited by jorge (05/05/18 12:35 AM)
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Jorge Sakai
D.R.T. Outfitters

Contact #: 210-837-6742
GEORGE.SAKAI@YAHOO.COM

"Fresh of a mofo's back and I'm feeling homesick" ~ R. Schmidt

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#7160871 - 05/05/18 04:36 AM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: jorge]
HicksHunter Offline


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 1637
Loc: Kerrville
Did it give you the same issues with factory ammo?

I'm with Dove- 40.0gr H4350 is a pretty light load.


Edited by HicksHunter (05/05/18 04:37 AM)

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#7160886 - 05/05/18 06:10 AM Re: 4 months & 2 two trips to gunsmiths = 0 Progress [Re: HicksHunter]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 24503
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: HicksHunter
Did it give you the same issues with factory ammo?

I'm with Dove- 40.0gr H4350 is a pretty light load.


Hodgdon's published max is what it is. It is too light though.
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