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#7154677 - 04/29/18 08:48 AM Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL?
DeckArtist Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/17/13
Posts: 212
Loc: Elmo ,Texas
So I am a deck builder and am used to inches/feet. My last two scopes were MOA, but time being my worst enemy, I have not learned the system yet. Wanting to get into long range shooting and will be building a private 1000 yard range over the new couple of years or so. Decided to lose the two .308s I had and go to 6.5 Creedmoor and will be picking up the first rifle Monday. Since I have never learned either system and knowing almost every pro long range shooter uses MIL DOT in competition, should I be looking at this system? Which one is easier to learn?
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#7154694 - 04/29/18 09:09 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
dee Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 5487
Loc: Red River way
Doesn't really matter provided the reticle matches the turrets.

Also I realize you are basically shooting alone at the moment but if you plan on shooting a certain discipline it helps to use what others are for corrections.
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#7154712 - 04/29/18 09:29 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
DeckArtist Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/17/13
Posts: 212
Loc: Elmo ,Texas
I won't be shooting in competition, it's just a hobby for me, but I figured there was a reason why all the pros use the system. Hoping to hear from someone who has been in a similar situation shed some light on the learning curve of the mil-dot system.
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#7154716 - 04/29/18 09:35 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
wp75169 Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 10/11/09
Posts: 4794
Loc: Wills Point
MOA is not actually 1” at 100 yards as many think so you background wouldn’t be a big help there. It is a smaller measurement than mils giving you more precise tuning.

With that said MIL is a far easier system to learn. If you will be shooting with anyone else they will be calling mil corrections. Last time I sat down there was 6 of us, 5 shooting mil and one moa.
For benchrest precision I will say moa is superior. The difference at 1000 yards will be slightly over an inch per “click” with the mil moving further than the moa.

My math and opinions could both be wrong, my memory is not what it used to be.

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#7154739 - 04/29/18 10:13 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
FiremanJG Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 26054
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Scroll down to the Mil vs. MOA topic.

http://www.precisionriflehunters.com/blog/

I've been a welder/fabricator, and carpenter for 22 years. I use an inch tape measure every day. Mils are easier. And inches, and feet are exclusive from Mil or MOA. In Mil or MOA think of ways to divide degrees into smaller pieces, not inches or feet into smaller pieces.

I don't own an MOA scope, only Mils, I use them for target shooting, and hunting. Probably never will own MOA unless I get old and slow enough, I have to start shooting bench rest.
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#7155265 - 04/29/18 09:59 PM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
DeckArtist Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/17/13
Posts: 212
Loc: Elmo ,Texas
Thanks guys. I will get the mil version of the scope when I get it chosen. I will be taking your class sometime this year JG. How long in advance do I need to book a day? Got a buddy that wants to do the same thing.
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#7155268 - 04/29/18 10:05 PM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: FiremanJG]
DeckArtist Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/17/13
Posts: 212
Loc: Elmo ,Texas
Your blog makes perfect sense. Should be easy to learn that system given the dispelled assumptions I have heard. thanks for posting that.
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#7155320 - 04/30/18 06:20 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
FiremanJG Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 26054
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Get with me a 2 week, to 2 months out. The earlier you contact me, the more likely you are to get the day you want. But if a last minute day comes available, don't hesitate to ask, I might be able to work something out. It is cheaper per person, if your friend comes the same day you do.
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#7155326 - 04/30/18 06:33 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
ccoker Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 3944
yep, Mil/Mil is just "easy"
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#7155336 - 04/30/18 06:41 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
patriot07 Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 2537
Loc: Royse City, TX
mil/mil is easier to remember the numbers. Both will do the job. If you're starting out, there really isn't a good reason to go MOA over mils.

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#7155359 - 04/30/18 07:21 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: FiremanJG]
DeckArtist Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/17/13
Posts: 212
Loc: Elmo ,Texas
Good info, thanks will do. OKStatefan and I will coordinate a day as far in advance as we can.
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#7155394 - 04/30/18 08:00 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
RedSnake Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 3505
Loc: Dallas / Nolan County
Mil/Mil and a day with JG and you’ll be good to go.
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#7155404 - 04/30/18 08:16 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
Skylar@SWFA Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 04/16/11
Posts: 3074
Loc: SWFA Outdoors
Previously with the mil-dots and MOA, the user would have to convert mils to minutes and vice versa before taking the follow up shot and people have operated the scope like this since Vietnam. Whether it was right or wrong, that is how the scopes were made, per a decision made by the Defense Dept under contract they set forth.
However, our argument was; The largest benefit to using a mil reticle, is that you can use the reticle like a tape measure. Let’s say that you are engaging different targets and you reach a target that is 865 yards away. You then fire at a man size target (18” wide) and the hit indicates that you hit the abdomen area (low), but you were aiming for center mass. You can use the reticle to measure how far you missed. In this case 2 ½ mils. Your adjustment would be 25 clicks, since each click is .10 mrad…its base ten scaling. Now that you have assessed your DOPE (drop on previous engagement) you are ready make your new adjustment before re-engaging the target and hit the intended area.

A common misconception is that MOA adjustment (in traditional riflescope) and Mil (like what we are discussing today) are linear measurements. They are not! (See attachment)
MOA (minute of angle) is an angular measurement and so is (MIL = short for) miliradian. It is a coincidence that when MOA is converted into a linear measurement that it subtends 1.047 inches at 100 yards. That is so close to 1” that most people round down and consider it to be 1” at 100 yards. So a scope with .25 MOA adjustments translates to each click moving the reticle .25 of an inch at 100 yards.
However, the fact that 0.1 mrad is 1cm at 100 meters is most certainly not a coincidence. That is most certainly intended that way by design and comes out of the very definition of the angular measurement of a radian and of the method behind the metric system.
That is the beauty of the metric system: you can start with very few basic unitless measurements and scale everything from there.

1 radian is simply an angle where the subtended arc is equal to the radius, for example 1mrad is 0.001 of a radian, so 1mrad is an angle where the subtended arc is one thousandth of the radius, for example if an object at a certain distance from you subtends exactly 1 mrad, then the size of that object in linear units is almost exactly one thousandth of a distance between you and that object.
What linear units you happen to use makes no difference. It will work with either of them.
It is simplest to use with metric linear units because of the base10 scaling, of course.

With moderately retarded measurement systems we use for traditional reasons (like inches/feet/yards for linear units and degrees for angular units)you know for common things like to measure a trailer or perhaps building something, translation between angular and linear measurements is a lot more involved.
Hence, between MOA and MRAD, for as long as all you need to do is trajectory compensation, it does not matter what you use.
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#7155405 - 04/30/18 08:17 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
Skylar@SWFA Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 04/16/11
Posts: 3074
Loc: SWFA Outdoors
If you can make your brain stop having to apply a linear measurement to your angular adjustments it is quite a bit easier to use a mil scope. You do this by using the reticle as a ruler to adjust for how much you missed the target. Say you are shooting 864 yards and you miss low, if you can see how much you missed then you put the reticle on where you were aiming and count how many mils it is to where your shot actually went. If it was 2.5 mils, then you just turn your elevation 2.5 mils in the direction you missed. It does not matter how far or how close you are shooting because it is an angular measurement. Mix matched scopes will soon be a thing of the past as it makes no sense to combine the two in one scope. All scopes with mil based reticles should have mil based clicks, I think within five years mil scopes with moa adjustments will be completely obsolete.
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#7155444 - 04/30/18 09:07 AM Re: Optics for a master carpenter starting out in long range....MOA or MIL? [Re: DeckArtist]
ccoker Offline
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 3944
yeah, I had a hard time trying to wrap my head around it as I grew up shooting scopes with MOA adjustments..
Once I actually started using mil/mil and stopped trying to equate mils to inches and just shoot, it was so easy to forget about how many mils equals how many inches, that mental hang up..

it just works
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Disclosure statement
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