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#7121111 - 03/23/18 06:44 PM Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt?
RedSnake Offline
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Registered: 05/08/10
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Whoís tried load dev this way? Tech at Berger suggested I try it ó shooting groups at diff seating depths to see what jump groups best prior to doing ladder for charge weight.

Iíve been needing to accumulate some brass and break in my barrel on the 30 Nos before going up to Firemanís to do formal load dev with ladder... so I figured Iíd give it a try and see.

The results suprised me. Shooting 5 shot groups with both 180 Elite Hunters and 215 Hybrids with starting load of H1000 and varying jump in 0.030 increments from the lands gave me the same results. For both the 180 and 215 gr bergers, best groups were clearly at 0.090 jump.

Itíll be interesting to see if that same CBTO length holds true once I find node with ladder.
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#7121130 - 03/23/18 07:07 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Never heard of that exact process. I've always been the other way around, seat close to the lands (giving the most powder capacity) find the right charge, then play with depth. But hey, it worked for you, so I won't argue with it.

I have seen Judd get a new barrel, of a cartridge he knew, go to his old load, and play with seating depth only. He was seating bullets at the range, and I was shooting two rounds. If two didn't group, we moved on. When two grouped, he would load a third. If it continued to group, he noted it. We went with more jump, and groups decayed. Went back to the good shooting jump, and he loaded 5. Those 5 shot, and we called it good.

Internal ballistics have some voo-doo going on sometimes.
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#7121136 - 03/23/18 07:16 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
RedSnake Offline
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Yep. Wasnít sure what to make of it so I thought Iíd give it a go. Letís Mythbust it when I come out.

Btw. Itís a damn shooter. Even factory 180 accubonds group. Tony is the magicman.

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#7121160 - 03/23/18 07:41 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
wp75169 Online   content
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Did you jump any further than .090Ē. Iím curious about this method. If that was your farthest jump it would make me think about it also being the highest pressure. If not Iím curious if you moved it back more creating a higher pressure would your results reflect a trend or deteriorate. Curious minds want to know. When you said starting load of H1000 did you mean book minimum or something similar? Iím always open to new methods. Iíve never messed with seating depth. I usually run at mag length or as the one Iím working on now as far as I can go without the bullet falling out of the case. Which happens to be jumping .080Ē

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#7121186 - 03/23/18 08:10 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
RedSnake Offline
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Book min load on all

My OCD brass prep = Virgin brass - cases sorted by weight (all were within 0.2 gr same weight), then annealed, then FL sized with bushing for 0.002 neck tension, trimmed to uniform length.

Jumps = 0.00 / 0.030 / 0.060 / 0.090 / 0.120

Gr Size 1 moa / 1.5 moa / .75 moa / .5 moa / 1 moa

Groups for 180 and 215 looked similar for each seating depth.

Wish Iíd taken a pic



Edited by RedSnake (03/23/18 08:17 PM)
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#7121206 - 03/23/18 08:38 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
Smokey Bear Online   content
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Redsnake, thanks for sharing that. Something I will experiment with for sure.
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#7121232 - 03/23/18 09:09 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
FiremanJG Online   content
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I never had a doubt it would shoot, Tony does excellent work. We just need to get it to shoot with a case full of powder. I wonder, with that .090" jump if we will find compression. That's Ok, and I hope we do, but I also hope it shoots there.
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#7121279 - 03/23/18 10:02 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: FiremanJG]
RedSnake Offline
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I never had a doubt it would shoot, Tony does excellent work. We just need to get it to shoot with a case full of powder. I wonder, with that .090" jump if we will find compression. That's Ok, and I hope we do, but I also hope it shoots there.


At .090 jump with the 215 I can fit 2 gr over book max (if I use a drop tube) before there is any compression on powder column from seating the bullet. We should hit pressure well before that as Iím running my can on this rifle.
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#7121398 - 03/24/18 06:18 AM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Originally Posted By: RedSnake
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I never had a doubt it would shoot, Tony does excellent work. We just need to get it to shoot with a case full of powder. I wonder, with that .090" jump if we will find compression. That's Ok, and I hope we do, but I also hope it shoots there.


At .090 jump with the 215 I can fit 2 gr over book max (if I use a drop tube) before there is any compression on powder column from seating the bullet. We should hit pressure well before that as Iím running my can on this rifle.


Book max is only a guideline. peep
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#7121564 - 03/24/18 10:09 AM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
RedSnake Offline
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Apparently this notion of playing with seating depth comes from Bryan Litz in the Berger reloading manual.

"In general, the seating depth of a particular bullet in a particular rifle tends to be more static than what powder charge will work best. In other words, it's probably best to start with a low to medium powder charge and find the best seating depth. Then, using that estabilished seating depth, start working on changes in powder charge."

I found that on the interweb, so take it for what itís worth.
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#7121877 - 03/24/18 06:56 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
patriot07 Online   content
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Lots of good info on this thread. Thanks for detailing the work you did. I'm about to start working up a load for my 6.5 CM, so this should be helpful.

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#7121908 - 03/24/18 07:33 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: FiremanJG]
TackDriver Online   content
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: RedSnake
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I never had a doubt it would shoot, Tony does excellent work. We just need to get it to shoot with a case full of powder. I wonder, with that .090" jump if we will find compression. That's Ok, and I hope we do, but I also hope it shoots there.


At .090 jump with the 215 I can fit 2 gr over book max (if I use a drop tube) before there is any compression on powder column from seating the bullet. We should hit pressure well before that as Iím running my can on this rifle.


Book max is only a guideline. peep

Good shooting RS, let's say I find a max load on a ladder testing, and find seating depth to tighten, if seating deeper will push my loads over max pressure correct? If so, is this the reason you start lower / medium loads? I assume you are a few thousands off the lands to start with

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#7122358 - 03/25/18 11:31 AM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
Olshovel Offline
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Registered: 08/04/13
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I am looking forward to what you guys figure out on this. This is an article I read a while back that has caused me to wonder about this as well. It is a paper on the "Optimal Barrel Time Concept".

http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

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#7122403 - 03/25/18 12:48 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RedSnake]
RiverRider Offline
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In my own experience, loading to OBT has not really worked out well enough to conclude that it's an effective way to approach load workup. I get the concept and maybe it's valid, but I suspect based on my own experience that it works better when shooting rifles with heavy barrels. My best guess would be that lighter barrels are more influenced by other modes of vibration, or barrel whip. That's really all speculation on my part.
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#7122406 - 03/25/18 12:52 PM Re: Seating Depth Test Before Ladder for Charge Wt? [Re: RiverRider]
FiremanJG Online   content
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The thinner, and longer the barrel, the more narrow the node, in my experience. So, on a short, heavy barrel, short action, it may shoot well in a 1.5 gr spread. On a long thin barrel, it may only shoot well on a .6 gr spread, or less, just as an example. Those are not hard numbers.
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