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Max Online: 16728 @ 03/25/12 08:51 AM
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#7108335 - 03/11/18 08:14 PM nato milspec vs .223/308 saami
hetman Online   content
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Registered: 02/15/15
Posts: 3104
Loc: Addison Tx or Cisco Tx
A Few quick questions to get this all straight:

7.62 Nato or .308 is ok to shoot in anything marked .308win : 308 higher pressure round

5.56 Nato or .223 is ok to shoot in anything marked 5.56 or wylde: 5.56 higher pressure than .223

Can you shoot 5.56 Nato in a tikka t3 lite bolt gun marked .223 : if you look at all the ads they are listed as .223/5.56. I am told it depends on the Throat leade length as there is no difference in cartridge dimensions. I can not find any info on the tikka throat length.



What brought all this on was a friend gave me a sealed case of FEDERAL 5.56X45MM 62GR XM855 green tip to try out on Pigs.

I have a New to me - Rock River LAR15 marked as 5.56MM & a older Smith & Wesson marked as 5.56Nato

I have been shooting just mostly .223 in my AR's and also my Tikka Bolt no problems.

Noticed this weekend sighting in a Night Vision on the Rock River LAR15 with the 5.56 xm855 ammo and it shot well. It seems to be noticeably Louder and Hotter load than what I was use too.

I guess I was being a dumbass shooting with no ear protection - it never seemed to be a problem shooting .223 55 grain in my AR . But after just one round of the Lake City Ammo 5.56 : my left Ear is hammered pain/ringing/ talking is distorted - not good. this happened Friday night, I don't see how you can stand to hunt with it without wearing ear muffs. This was sighting in my night vision in a open space outdoors.
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#7108353 - 03/11/18 08:28 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 25201
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
I do not understand anyone shooting anything center fire without hearing protection, unless it is wearing a suppressor. Rad Band ear plugs are too easy to have around your neck when hunting
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#7108454 - 03/11/18 10:43 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
DStroud Offline
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Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 1777
Loc: In the Right lane
You can shoot the ammo in whatever rifle you want. The NATO round is not loaded any hotter than say Hornady Superfromance 223 just pressure measured by a different method.
There have been thousands and thousands or more like millions of 5.56 shot in .223ís with no blown up rifles that even Google can find.
There is an article that researched this where they checked pressures and the .223 factory showed higher pressures than 5.56
And when you really think about it just the variables in chamber size from reamer to reamer manufacturers to manufacturers itís all really just corporate lawyers covering arses.
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#7108502 - 03/12/18 05:35 AM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 8137
Loc: Wise Co.
The question of 5.56 NATO pressure is one I have researched with some vigor. The US military specs 5.56, depending on the round, using tje SCATP standard where pressure testing is done using the same method that SAAMI uses. M193 amd M855 are set to 55000 psi average. A new round, M855A1, is limited to a bit over 58000 psi. Tracers are a bit higher, I believe.

NATO specs pressure at 62000 psi, but using the EPVAT standard. Pressure testing is done using a system more like CIP's methods, but I understand that it is not identical to CIP.

It has been stated that European M855 ammo will pressure test to 55000 psi using the SCATP or SAAMI method. I have seen no real proof in the form of military documentation tjat this is so, but I suspect that it is.

I do not know if NATO will adopt the M855A1. It would be interesting to see how it stacks up using EPVAT and/or CIP testing.

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#7108833 - 03/12/18 11:17 AM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 13051
Loc: Lewisville, TX
hetman, your statements are correct. The 5.56 chamber does have a longer lead (longer throat) than the 223 Rem. Externally, the rounds are identical. Ammo companies can load the 223 or 5.56 to whatever pressures they load them to. The method for reading the pressure between the 2 rounds is different. But when it comes down to an apples to apples comparison, the 5.56 listed as a hotter round than the 223 Rem. Most modern rifles can handle a 62K psi round no problem.

Here's the main problem comes the 223 vs 5.56. 5.56 is loaded up to normal 5.56 pressures (about 62K psi) in a 5.56 chamber with their pressure methods. The 5.56 chamber does have a longer throat than a 223. Now, when you shoot the 5.56 ammo in a 223 Rem chamber with a much closer throat, you naturally get more pressure. So, the 5.56 ammo is now MUCH hotter than the ~62K psi because the throat is much closer. That's where the real danger comes in.

But the big difference is in the 7.6x51 to 308 Win. There are rifles only rated at 7.62x51, which is a lower pressure than the 308 Win is. The 308 Win is rated as a hotter round. I have seen rifles blow up from shooting 308 in a 7.62 chamber, and one with a suppressor on it. And a suppressor will add about 3K-5K psi to the round, depending on a few factors. So you do have to know what chamber and rifle you have and pair it with the correct ammo.
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#7108852 - 03/12/18 11:30 AM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 8137
Loc: Wise Co.
Chad, have you seen official specification documents stating that any 5.56 ammo is rated to an AVERAGE pressure of 62000 psi using SCATP or SAAMI test standards? if you have, I would like to see them. EVERY document I have seen giving a 62000 psi figure has referenced the EPVAT methodology.
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#7108892 - 03/12/18 11:55 AM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: ChadTRG42]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 25201
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
And a suppressor will add about 3K-5K psi to the round, depending on a few factors.


And add mist in the air, and what happens? peep






Oh, look the primer blew out of that brand new Nosler 7mm-08 brass. Neat!
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#7108896 - 03/12/18 12:00 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: RiverRider]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 13051
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Chad, have you seen official specification documents stating that any 5.56 ammo is rated to an AVERAGE pressure of 62000 psi using SCATP or SAAMI test standards? if you have, I would like to see them. EVERY document I have seen giving a 62000 psi figure has referenced the EPVAT methodology.


RR, we went over this about a year ago. I'm not going to go down this road again.
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#7108903 - 03/12/18 12:04 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 13051
Loc: Lewisville, TX
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#7108904 - 03/12/18 12:04 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 13051
Loc: Lewisville, TX
This is direct from the Hornady manual. It's 60K, not 62K psi, close enough.
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#7108912 - 03/12/18 12:15 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 8137
Loc: Wise Co.
I know what the loading manuals say. I do not believe they've got it quite right. I would believe it if I saw a SCATP data sheet that listed acceptable average pressure as 60000 psi. Go down the road you choose.
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I'm here to give and receive knowledge, not affirmation or adoration. If you don't like it, mierda dura. Intellectual honesty is not for fragile egos.

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#7108914 - 03/12/18 12:17 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 13051
Loc: Lewisville, TX
I have spoken to individuals about this, and it is 100% certain that the 5.56 round is hotter than the 223 Rem. There are different pressure methods for testing each round. But if you tested them even with the same method, the 5.56 would be hotter.
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#7108920 - 03/12/18 12:22 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 8137
Loc: Wise Co.
I know that IS true of the M855A1, but as far as I know the pressure spec (and the rest of the spec, also) is still classified. And as I have said, I have seen a military document specifying a bit over 58000 psi, for M855, if I recall correctly.
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I'm here to give and receive knowledge, not affirmation or adoration. If you don't like it, mierda dura. Intellectual honesty is not for fragile egos.

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#7108936 - 03/12/18 12:51 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 8137
Loc: Wise Co.
I did err above. What I should have said about SCATP specs is M193 is set to 55000, M855 is a little over 58000, and M855A1 is an unspecified amount higher than M855. All this is according to military documents I have been anle to locate and download on M193 and M855. Info on M855A1 is scant.
_________________________


I'm here to give and receive knowledge, not affirmation or adoration. If you don't like it, mierda dura. Intellectual honesty is not for fragile egos.

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#7109039 - 03/12/18 02:08 PM Re: nato milspec vs .223/308 saami [Re: hetman]
Dave3575 Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 1134
Loc: Plano, TX
i stopped reading at "green tip to try out on Pigs"

spoiler alert, they will not perform well.

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