What speed does a 168 SMK need to be able to reach 1,000 yards without losing stabilization?

1110 fps, but due to the low BC, it is going to have to come out of the barrel faster than a .308 Win can make.

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2800 fps is not enough for a 168 bullet? How far do you estimate it can do at that speed, roughly?

Just playing with some numbers, to stay supersonic you need about 2880 fps, and to stay above transonic (1340 fps), you need about 3200 fps, both at 1K yards. The region from transonic to subsonic is where most bullets get unstable. So, for 100% straight flight, anything faster than 3200 fps would do it. But, someone wouldn't be loading this 168 SMK for 1K yards. It's a very poor choice in bullet beyond 700-800 yards.

Current conditions (which are not good for pushing bullets to their limits) 168 gr. SMK, 2800 fps MV, drops down to 1340 fps @ 775 yards. Is at 1110 fps @ 925 yards.

Ok FM, thanks. Just curious, where do you get those calculations from? It's cool to fiddle with it.

I use 2 sites for data:

90% of my data comes from here: http://www.mega.nu:8080/traj_dat.html

The other 10% is direct from JBM for altitude info:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmcard-5.1.cgi

"Shooter Ballistics" on my phone. Takes into account Density Altitude and temp, where ever I am, and gives corrections based on that.

jbmballistics.com on the P.C. You have to manually input environment, but it has been a solid calculator for years. And, once you have it dialed in,and calculator matches known DOPE, what it produced will tranfer to Excel, if you want to print a chart.

Thanks Chad and FM.

I used 2 dies because I tried the regular FL size die first and didn't like the fact that the base-to-shoulder dimension got longer when I just barely kissed the shoulder with the body part of the die. It lengthened 1-2 thousandths when I pulled the expander ball through, so to get it bumped back 1-2 thousands in the end, I actually have to bump the shoulder back 3-4 thousandths and then it ends up 1-2 thousands shorter after the expander ball comes through and pulls it some. After I tried that and got mediocre groups, I decided to buy a bushing die.

All groups were shot on a clean barrel. My Tikka has about 180 rounds through it by now.

I do have wildly varying lengths after sizing. I thought about trimming to see if getting consistent lengths would help.

I have not deburred any flash holes, nor do I know how to or know if I have the tool(s) to do so.

I did not shoot the virgin and once-fired in the same outing. They were separate outings. Cleaning in between. I don't normally clean that often, but I do when doing load development.

Sounds like more lubrication is needed, especially on the inside of the neck. Inadequate lube on the inside of the neck definitely can cause stretching. Could you try a quick test of adding more lube to the inside and outside of the neck and also the body, but not the shoulder and see if that makes a difference in the measurements?

What kind of lube are you using?

RCBS lube. Their lube video doesn’t show going inside the neck at all. I’ll try that tonight with measurements. Do you do anything afterward to get the leftover lube out before adding the powder/bullet?

Thanks for the help.

Yes, either wipe it off or tumble the lube off. I mainly tumble the lube off since I can do a lot at once and not take the time to wipe them all down evenly.

How bout remove the expander ball?

If its a little fouled, if you're not changing bullets, why are you cleaning, removing all the fouling from a button rifled barrel that needs it?

After 2 firings, trim.

Deburring the flash hole, is with flash hole deburring tool.

Honestly, I'm just doing this for grins and giggles vs. being a serious long range shooter. My buddies we're giggling like little girls when they heard the ping when they hit steel. None of them had ever shot past 100, so you can imagine how much fun they had. I'm going to load up the 155 Sierra TMK and try 1000 yards next time. I'll make sure to pay closer attention to brass prep, use Varget and weigh every load.

Hey, I thought shooting at a 1000 would be easy based on the fact YouTubers make it look simple and they rarely miss .

bigjoe - do you have a place in the area where you're shooting at 950-1000 yards?

I started cleaning it since I shot my first set with virgin brass on a clean barrel and got tiny groups with 41.5, 42.0, and 42.4 grains. Then I shot on a dirty barrel with 41.5 and 42.0 grains after using the standard die (with expander ball) and got ~1" groups. Then I shot on a clean barrel with 41.5 and 42.0 grains after using the bushing die (no expander ball) and got 1"-1.3" groups. Are you suggesting I remove the expander ball from the standard die or did you think I was using the expander with the bushing die?

I just now sized some using the standard die and lube in the case neck and it was much smoother. My case lengths at the end were much more consistent and I got it set to get just a hair under .001" of shoulder bump. I think that has a chance at shooting pretty good. The brass just seems more consistent with that lube in the neck.

I was surprised I didn't get better results with the bushing die. But I also didn't do a full workup tweaking length or doing a big run of different charges or anything like that. I figured if it shot that good with virgin brass, the fired brass would be easy.

Damn, stop cleaning the barrel! I've seen some that need 5 and some that need 25 rounds to start shooting consistent.

You've got too many variables. Foul it, and leave it!

Use one FL die.

Remove that case lube from the inside of the neck. I don't mean to step on toes,but I would never recommend that. Had a real bad experience with lube left on bullets. ES, and therefore, POI went crazy. And I was trying to shoot 300 to 1200 yards in a match.

Remove the expander from the bushing die.

Again, too many variables. Pick a case prep process, stick to it, tweak powder charge. If you're still not satisfied, tweak seating depth.

JG,

What do you use for sizing lube?

Do you tumble the brass after sizing?

The barrel on this rifle has never needed dirt to shoot well. First group straight out of the box was .5" with factory ammo, and the best groups I've had since were all on a clean barrel. Not that it shoots bad on a dirty barrel, but I didn't know if it did when I was doing load development. Regardless, I'll leave it dirty from now on.

Regarding variables, I was trying to make the die the only variable. Since it shot great on virgin brass with 3 different loads, I didn't see the value in trying to tweak loads down to the tenth of a grain with nothing changing other than brass prep.

So with lengths being a pretty big variable on the bushing die also, would you go ahead and trim even though they've only been fired once? Then go to every 2nd firing after that?

"Unique" and a pad, or "One Shot". Depends on where I am in brass life as to what lube I use. I wipe every case off after sizing.

Yes

Thanks!

Like others have said, I've had very very good results with 168 AMAX bullets up to 900 yards, where I can get 5 inch groups or better, but after that they become less consistent. The new ELD bullets will stretch your distance a little farther, and are easy to work with.

Pick a different bullet, do your load development at 200 yards, and follow the excellent advice given about reloading consistency.