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Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: therancher] #7013312 12/27/17 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
You ain't gonna win this one.

Is it legal to put a blind against a fence line? Yep. Is it being a good neighbor? Nah. The issues caused by fence hunting and neighbors who can't agree on a management system (which almost never works) has raised more high fences than anything.

High fences make great neighbors. I highly recommend them.


Rancher, I agree, if you don't like it, put up a high fence. But isn't the intent here with the high fence to keep what is "yours" on your side of the fence?

Is that the problem here, we all think it is "ours" and not our neighbors? Are we greedy enough to think that something owned by the state, something native and natural and uncontrollable, can actually be "mine" not not yours?

That's some stinky mess if you ask me. Not putting words into your mouth here rancher. I am not trying to imply you think this way, but is this maybe the gist of the thread in the first place?

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: Texas buckeye] #7013325 12/27/17 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: therancher
You ain't gonna win this one.

Is it legal to put a blind against a fence line? Yep. Is it being a good neighbor? Nah. The issues caused by fence hunting and neighbors who can't agree on a management system (which almost never works) has raised more high fences than anything.

High fences make great neighbors. I highly recommend them.


Rancher, I agree, if you don't like it, put up a high fence. But isn't the intent here with the high fence to keep what is "yours" on your side of the fence?

Is that the problem here, we all think it is "ours" and not our neighbors? Are we greedy enough to think that something owned by the state, something native and natural and uncontrollable, can actually be "mine" not not yours?

That's some stinky mess if you ask me. Not putting words into your mouth here rancher. I am not trying to imply you think this way, but is this maybe the gist of the thread in the first place?


That's part of it. It's also to keep those nasty inferior state deer that haven't been treated as well as I treat mine from getting inside my fence to contaminate the genetic line I prefer.

Is it "greedy" of me to expect to "control" animals that I've spent 100 grand +/- each year on feed, food plots, waterings etc (btw I've fed that much to low fenced deer before as well), so that I reap most of the benefit of my investment?

On low fenced places it's still the same principle. Invariably, people practicing restraint on 3 year old 140's that they've fed and passed to get them to 5 or older want to be able to have a better chance at those animals than their neighbors do.

You call that greed? Or am I putting words in your mouth?


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Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013328 12/27/17 06:15 PM
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I would allow them to if they asked permission.


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Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013333 12/27/17 06:20 PM
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Would allow but meet them there and better be blood trail.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013357 12/27/17 06:39 PM
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I have two uncles that hunt fencelines that border the neighbors. Their feeders are at least 50 yards away from the fence inside the brush. Both hunters do put corn on the roadway next to the fence but not more than 200 yards from their stands. They each have this rule. If the deer, hog or whatever is 100 yards or closer than its gonna be a neck/head shot to drop it on the spot. If its between 100 - 200 yards away than the animal must be facing into ours, so when shot and hit, it will most likely run into our ranch for tracking. Now, both of these stands have been on this fenceline since the 1960's and the neighbors do not say anything about these stands when they are hunted. BUT...I do agree that we should not have stands on fencelines. It is too tempting to take a shot and a truly BIG buck on the other side. Stands should be away from fencelines at least 100 yards away or further.
I would NOT let that neighbor onto yours even if the game warden asked you. I would let the game warden know that the neighbor needs to move his blind or there will be another blind on yours on the same fenceline.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: therancher] #7013362 12/27/17 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: therancher
You ain't gonna win this one.

Is it legal to put a blind against a fence line? Yep. Is it being a good neighbor? Nah. The issues caused by fence hunting and neighbors who can't agree on a management system (which almost never works) has raised more high fences than anything.

High fences make great neighbors. I highly recommend them.


Rancher, I agree, if you don't like it, put up a high fence. But isn't the intent here with the high fence to keep what is "yours" on your side of the fence?

Is that the problem here, we all think it is "ours" and not our neighbors? Are we greedy enough to think that something owned by the state, something native and natural and uncontrollable, can actually be "mine" not not yours?

That's some stinky mess if you ask me. Not putting words into your mouth here rancher. I am not trying to imply you think this way, but is this maybe the gist of the thread in the first place?


That's part of it. It's also to keep those nasty inferior state deer that haven't been treated as well as I treat mine from getting inside my fence to contaminate the genetic line I prefer.

Is it "greedy" of me to expect to "control" animals that I've spent 100 grand +/- each year on feed, food plots, waterings etc (btw I've fed that much to low fenced deer before as well), so that I reap most of the benefit of my investment?

On low fenced places it's still the same principle. Invariably, people practicing restraint on 3 year old 140's that they've fed and passed to get them to 5 or older want to be able to have a better chance at those animals than their neighbors do.

You call that greed? Or am I putting words in your mouth?


There's two parts to your statements:
1. you paid for stocker deer and have rights to those which aren't to be equated with native LF deer.
2. LF deer are not yours no matter how much you feed or see them, they are the states and the state has plenty of legal guidance about that concept.

In example 1 above, you HF a place and bring in stocker deer and want to keep your deer in and the states deer out, that perfectly acceptable as a legal and moral practice. I don't call that greedy at all, just protecting your investment. Smart business move for you, for others in that situation (I know there are HF owners that don't sell hunts but just do management) it is a legal move to allow them ability to control herds.

In example 2 above, there is no way to legally or morally have a higher ground than your neighbor over any deer that you have seen, they have seen, you have fed, or managed or watched or whatever for no matter how many years. If that deer you watched jumped over into the neighbors land would it be ok for you to shoot it? Heck no! No more than it isn't ok for the neighbor to shoot on your land. However, if that deer you been managing and feeding and watching grow for 5 years jumps the fence and your neighbor shoots it on their land then doe that give you the moral or legal authority to go claim that deer and say it was "yours" since you raised it? Heck no! That I would call greedy.

So in LF texas, which is what this discussion was about in the first place, we can feed and set up management plans and watch deer grow and all that fully knowing the deer can at any time change plans and go to the neighbors land and live there and get shot there. There is no "right" given to landowners in LF setting to have dominion over wildlife. it is the states animal, they have the final say.

Last edited by Texas buckeye; 12/27/17 06:41 PM.
Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013363 12/27/17 06:42 PM
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I had a blind on a fence once, no back window, side windows to the front edge, only way to shoot was on our place... showed it to the neighbors and asked if they were ok with it. They said looks great, but why not have a back window to see what's coming???

Meet your neighbors, it helps. Hope they are aren't as skeptical as some of u'all

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013374 12/27/17 06:53 PM
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I'm not saying anyone cant put their blind on my line I am a staunch advocate for individual freedom.I am saying I don't like it and I would never put mine on yours.I know there are no poachers in the world ( SARCASM) with 360 degree vision you don't need to focus your attention my 180 or more. Trust me I only have 160 acres I share my place with as many folks as I can especially young folks to get them hooked as I am blessed to have it even with it making my life less financially comfortable. I guess you don't have shades on your bedroom windows as anyone has a right to look wherever they want Right. I'm just saying you need to lack respect and sensitivity if you put blinds on another mans line.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: Texas buckeye] #7013375 12/27/17 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: BassBuster1
We have a neighbor with a small piece of land that borders a corner of two family properties. Last year he built a huge unsightly blind right on the fence. The blind was built tall enough and in such a way where the two biggest windows overlook a major game trail on our family property. He also has a feeder that is literally 20 feet from one fence and 40 yards from the other. His place is such that he would not have deer on his property at all without them crossing ours. He is hunting our family land while sitting on his is what it boils down to. If he shoots something, his property is less than an acre wide and I can almost guarantee without the perfect anchor shot the animal will leave his property. I can also say he has never asked to come on our property to recover an animal(probably just trespasses) but if he did ask, there would be a serious conversation with he and the game warden about his stand location! It is a free country and I believe wholeheartedly that people should be able to do whatever they want with their property but where did common decency and courtesy go? Why would you ruin a beautiful landscape with a huge ugly blind that you barely use? why would you put that blind directly looking over someone else's property? Some people are just plain rude so if and when we are asked, I just don't know what the response will be...


I understand what you are saying about the small property and all, but you do realize there is a way to make that issue go away, just high fence the corner.

Until then, realize the deer on your family property are actually property of the state and not yours, and it will make things a lot easier to swallow when he hunts his property and shoots the states deer...


Yep we understand who's deer they are, everyone's! We also understand you can hunt a fence line and do whatever you want on your side of the fence! We also understand there is no law against sitting on your side of the fence looking over someone else's property nor should there be, we have too many laws as it is. Does not make it the right thing or neighborly thing to do especially when you know any deer you shoot will very likely not die on your property.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: BassBuster1] #7013433 12/27/17 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: BassBuster1
Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: BassBuster1
We have a neighbor with a small piece of land that borders a corner of two family properties. Last year he built a huge unsightly blind right on the fence. The blind was built tall enough and in such a way where the two biggest windows overlook a major game trail on our family property. He also has a feeder that is literally 20 feet from one fence and 40 yards from the other. His place is such that he would not have deer on his property at all without them crossing ours. He is hunting our family land while sitting on his is what it boils down to. If he shoots something, his property is less than an acre wide and I can almost guarantee without the perfect anchor shot the animal will leave his property. I can also say he has never asked to come on our property to recover an animal(probably just trespasses) but if he did ask, there would be a serious conversation with he and the game warden about his stand location! It is a free country and I believe wholeheartedly that people should be able to do whatever they want with their property but where did common decency and courtesy go? Why would you ruin a beautiful landscape with a huge ugly blind that you barely use? why would you put that blind directly looking over someone else's property? Some people are just plain rude so if and when we are asked, I just don't know what the response will be...


I understand what you are saying about the small property and all, but you do realize there is a way to make that issue go away, just high fence the corner.

Until then, realize the deer on your family property are actually property of the state and not yours, and it will make things a lot easier to swallow when he hunts his property and shoots the states deer...


Yep we understand who's deer they are, everyone's! We also understand you can hunt a fence line and do whatever you want on your side of the fence! We also understand there is no law against sitting on your side of the fence looking over someone else's property nor should there be, we have too many laws as it is. Does not make it the right thing or neighborly thing to do especially when you know any deer you shoot will very likely not die on your property.



Why does it matter where a deer your neighbor shot from his property to eat dies? Does it cause you some type of pain or money to allow him to retrieve said deer?

I agree with the other guy. You just do not want him hunting what you consider your deer.

Now him entering your property without permission that's another issue all together.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: Texas buckeye] #7013436 12/27/17 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
I said it before and I will say it again, the bow hunter on 100 acres is a set up for a deer jumping a fence. how many posts do we read every year in october about a well shot deer that ran 300-800 yards before finally expiring? Heck, I have seen a deer with a blown up heart from a gun shot run over 75 yards. There is no way to guarantee a DRT type death with anything.

By taking the mentality of the OP, we should ban bow hunting on any acreage less than 400, and gun hunting on anything less than 100 acres, as there is too much risk for deer jumping fences and stands overlooking a neighbors property. confused2


You've said a lot alright, & none of it makes any sense.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013451 12/27/17 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: maximus_flavius
Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
I said it before and I will say it again, the bow hunter on 100 acres is a set up for a deer jumping a fence. how many posts do we read every year in october about a well shot deer that ran 300-800 yards before finally expiring? Heck, I have seen a deer with a blown up heart from a gun shot run over 75 yards. There is no way to guarantee a DRT type death with anything.

By taking the mentality of the OP, we should ban bow hunting on any acreage less than 400, and gun hunting on anything less than 100 acres, as there is too much risk for deer jumping fences and stands overlooking a neighbors property. confused2


You've said a lot alright, & none of it makes any sense.


Lol, it's city slicker talk roflmao

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: Texas buckeye] #7013469 12/27/17 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: therancher
You ain't gonna win this one.

Is it legal to put a blind against a fence line? Yep. Is it being a good neighbor? Nah. The issues caused by fence hunting and neighbors who can't agree on a management system (which almost never works) has raised more high fences than anything.

High fences make great neighbors. I highly recommend them.


Rancher, I agree, if you don't like it, put up a high fence. But isn't the intent here with the high fence to keep what is "yours" on your side of the fence?

Is that the problem here, we all think it is "ours" and not our neighbors? Are we greedy enough to think that something owned by the state, something native and natural and uncontrollable, can actually be "mine" not not yours?

That's some stinky mess if you ask me. Not putting words into your mouth here rancher. I am not trying to imply you think this way, but is this maybe the gist of the thread in the first place?


There you have the answer. The neighbors are not hunting the way I think they should so I am going to put up a high fence around my 300 acres!
When everything gets high fenced we wont have to worry about wild deer anymore. That will save the state a ton of money.

By the way I do not like the fact that neighbors on two sides of me have blinds right on my fence. I know that they are shooting deer coming from me. I warn them to not shoot on my side and the GW has warned them. So I am going to hope they follow the law, and if they do need to recover an animal I will not only let them but will help them.
But I'm not going to be the arse that high fences my place just to keep thee neighbors from hunting "my" deer. I did quit wasting money on protein a few years ago though.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013493 12/27/17 08:41 PM
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Quote:
I know that they are shooting deer coming from me.


And you are shooting deer coming from their places.


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Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013496 12/27/17 08:44 PM
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If they ask for permission, I’d gladly let them over.

If I catch them without permission, never again.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: Texas buckeye] #7013501 12/27/17 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: therancher
You ain't gonna win this one.

Is it legal to put a blind against a fence line? Yep. Is it being a good neighbor? Nah. The issues caused by fence hunting and neighbors who can't agree on a management system (which almost never works) has raised more high fences than anything.

High fences make great neighbors. I highly recommend them.


Rancher, I agree, if you don't like it, put up a high fence. But isn't the intent here with the high fence to keep what is "yours" on your side of the fence?

Is that the problem here, we all think it is "ours" and not our neighbors? Are we greedy enough to think that something owned by the state, something native and natural and uncontrollable, can actually be "mine" not not yours?

That's some stinky mess if you ask me. Not putting words into your mouth here rancher. I am not trying to imply you think this way, but is this maybe the gist of the thread in the first place?


That's part of it. It's also to keep those nasty inferior state deer that haven't been treated as well as I treat mine from getting inside my fence to contaminate the genetic line I prefer.

Is it "greedy" of me to expect to "control" animals that I've spent 100 grand +/- each year on feed, food plots, waterings etc (btw I've fed that much to low fenced deer before as well), so that I reap most of the benefit of my investment?

On low fenced places it's still the same principle. Invariably, people practicing restraint on 3 year old 140's that they've fed and passed to get them to 5 or older want to be able to have a better chance at those animals than their neighbors do.

You call that greed? Or am I putting words in your mouth?


There's two parts to your statements:
1. you paid for stocker deer and have rights to those which aren't to be equated with native LF deer.
2. LF deer are not yours no matter how much you feed or see them, they are the states and the state has plenty of legal guidance about that concept.

In example 1 above, you HF a place and bring in stocker deer and want to keep your deer in and the states deer out, that perfectly acceptable as a legal and moral practice. I don't call that greedy at all, just protecting your investment. Smart business move for you, for others in that situation (I know there are HF owners that don't sell hunts but just do management) it is a legal move to allow them ability to control herds.

In example 2 above, there is no way to legally or morally have a higher ground than your neighbor over any deer that you have seen, they have seen, you have fed, or managed or watched or whatever for no matter how many years. If that deer you watched jumped over into the neighbors land would it be ok for you to shoot it? Heck no! No more than it isn't ok for the neighbor to shoot on your land. However, if that deer you been managing and feeding and watching grow for 5 years jumps the fence and your neighbor shoots it on their land then doe that give you the moral or legal authority to go claim that deer and say it was "yours" since you raised it? Heck no! That I would call greedy.

So in LF texas, which is what this discussion was about in the first place, we can feed and set up management plans and watch deer grow and all that fully knowing the deer can at any time change plans and go to the neighbors land and live there and get shot there. There is no "right" given to landowners in LF setting to have dominion over wildlife. it is the states animal, they have the final say.


First. You’re wrong in example one. I can pay a million bucks for a deer and he still doesn’t belong to me. That’s how ridiculous the states laws are. I have never bought anything but does but I did kill all the “states” deer off one of my HF ranches. So I do have a known genetic line on that place.

Of course there is no “moral high ground” in either. And I shared why I didn’t like hunters cherry picking my fence lines on the other thread.


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Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013507 12/27/17 08:56 PM
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If I have met the fence line hunter and he has a legitimate reason for having his blind on the fence line and seems like good people, then yes I would let him retrieve his or her deer up


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Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: ducknbass] #7013510 12/27/17 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: ducknbass
Originally Posted By: BassBuster1
Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: BassBuster1
We have a neighbor with a small piece of land that borders a corner of two family properties. Last year he built a huge unsightly blind right on the fence. The blind was built tall enough and in such a way where the two biggest windows overlook a major game trail on our family property. He also has a feeder that is literally 20 feet from one fence and 40 yards from the other. His place is such that he would not have deer on his property at all without them crossing ours. He is hunting our family land while sitting on his is what it boils down to. If he shoots something, his property is less than an acre wide and I can almost guarantee without the perfect anchor shot the animal will leave his property. I can also say he has never asked to come on our property to recover an animal(probably just trespasses) but if he did ask, there would be a serious conversation with he and the game warden about his stand location! It is a free country and I believe wholeheartedly that people should be able to do whatever they want with their property but where did common decency and courtesy go? Why would you ruin a beautiful landscape with a huge ugly blind that you barely use? why would you put that blind directly looking over someone else's property? Some people are just plain rude so if and when we are asked, I just don't know what the response will be...


I understand what you are saying about the small property and all, but you do realize there is a way to make that issue go away, just high fence the corner.

Until then, realize the deer on your family property are actually property of the state and not yours, and it will make things a lot easier to swallow when he hunts his property and shoots the states deer...


Yep we understand who's deer they are, everyone's! We also understand you can hunt a fence line and do whatever you want on your side of the fence! We also understand there is no law against sitting on your side of the fence looking over someone else's property nor should there be, we have too many laws as it is. Does not make it the right thing or neighborly thing to do especially when you know any deer you shoot will very likely not die on your property.



Why does it matter where a deer your neighbor shot from his property to eat dies? Does it cause you some type of pain or money to allow him to retrieve said deer?

I agree with the other guy. You just do not want him hunting what you consider your deer.

Now him entering your property without permission that's another issue all together.


Not a fan of the trespassing and not a fan of the ethics! BTW I do spend a lot of money on all that has been talked about including protein with the understanding that we are low fence and they are everyone's deer. When he throws corn for a month or so and kills deer I have been feeding all year, ya I get a little butt hurt. It is however completely legal, they are his deer too!!! We would likely give him retrieval permission but we would have a talk about his ugly stand!

Lets do a hypothetical that may resonate...

You spend a bunch of money and time building some awesome brush piles to put in your local public lake. You sink them right on the X and you are catching a limit of slab Crappie every time you go out. One day Joe fisherman sees you hammering away and marks your pile with his GPS. The next time you go to the lake and several times after that you are not able to fish your pile because Joe fisherman who did no work or spent no money is sitting on your pile catching fish and reaping the rewards of your effort. Legal??? you bet in every sense of the word but ethical??? I personally do not think so.

This is how I feel about the guy with a blind on the fence line!

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013522 12/27/17 09:14 PM
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Would it be any better if he didn't mark it with a GPS and instead just remembered where the fish are?

confused2

public lake, you gotta know people will fish your spot if they find it...

save the work for a lake on your property and then you don't have to worry about people fishing it

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013524 12/27/17 09:15 PM
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Like it or not it's a reality and if I saw said guy out in the lake out of gas I'd lend him a hand. Which would be equal letting the neighbor retrieve a deer.

Last edited by ducknbass; 12/27/17 09:15 PM.
Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: huntwest] #7013528 12/27/17 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: huntwest
By the way I do not like the fact that neighbors on two sides of me have blinds right on my fence. I know that they are shooting deer coming from me. I warn them to not shoot on my side and the GW has warned them. So I am going to hope they follow the law, and if they do need to recover an animal I will not only let them but will help them.
But I'm not going to be the arse that high fences my place just to keep thee neighbors from hunting "my" deer. I did quit wasting money on protein a few years ago though.


Totally your decision. IMO, if you allow people on, who have obviously set up in such a way that they will highly likely be crossing your fence to retrieve animals, then you will get more of the same. OTOH, if I wanted a buncha a-holes tracking deer on my place, I'd already have it. So just because somebody wants to get as close as legally possible to shooting on my place, doesn't mean I'm gonna allow them to step foot on it.

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: Texas buckeye] #7013535 12/27/17 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
Originally Posted By: maximus_flavius
Originally Posted By: Texas buckeye
I said it before and I will say it again, the bow hunter on 100 acres is a set up for a deer jumping a fence. how many posts do we read every year in october about a well shot deer that ran 300-800 yards before finally expiring? Heck, I have seen a deer with a blown up heart from a gun shot run over 75 yards. There is no way to guarantee a DRT type death with anything.

By taking the mentality of the OP, we should ban bow hunting on any acreage less than 400, and gun hunting on anything less than 100 acres, as there is too much risk for deer jumping fences and stands overlooking a neighbors property. confused2


You've said a lot alright, & none of it makes any sense.


Lol, it's city slicker talk roflmao


Are you a bow hunter? You've never shot a deer, with an arrow, & recovered them within 400 acres? If I couldnt do any better than that, I'd take up another sport. Maybe bowling is your thing.

Last edited by maximus_flavius; 12/27/17 09:24 PM.
Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: Pootie] #7013537 12/27/17 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pootie
How far off the fenceline is hunting permissible?


Suppose I was your neighbor, & wanted to lay out in my Speedos & get a tan. How close to your property would you want me? How about front yard, as close as this deer stand, for example.......

Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013570 12/27/17 09:58 PM
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You boys sure get worked up over some stuff. From this thread and the other, looks like I fall into the minority. Stands on the fence don’t bother me. I have no clue what their thought process is but it doesn’t effect what I do. I don’t believe everyone is planning on shooting across a fence simply because they can see across it. I don’t see a stand on a fence and automatically think that must be an inexperienced or unethical hunter. Our neighbors have them on our fences.

Hell, one of our neighbors used to be on the forum (not sure if he is still active or a member of that lease anymore) but they had a stand so close it dang near got knocked over by the excavator when we were replacing the fence.

Don’t corn over the fence, don’t set up facing the fence (feeder near it), and dang sure don’t shoot over it and I don’t have a problem.

We don’t have any stands I can think of on a fence line, but we have a large property.

As far as someone recovering an animal, I would prefer that they called first but can’t imagine telling them no because of their stand location.


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Re: Allowing deer recovery [Re: maximus_flavius] #7013574 12/27/17 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: maximus_flavius
Originally Posted By: Pootie
How far off the fenceline is hunting permissible?


Suppose I was your neighbor, & wanted to lay out in my Speedos & get a tan. How close to your property would you want me? How about front yard, as close as this deer stand, for example.......

My neighbor can do what they want on THEIR property. Who are you to tell others what they can do and where they can do it on their property?


Originally Posted by unclebubba
Just to make sure that it is done thoroughly, I go both ways.

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