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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Leonardo] #7005489 12/21/17 03:48 PM
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In FT dogs color has no bearing on performance, but black liters with the right lineage are much more common. If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start. For a pure hunting dog color can aid or hinder performance. A waterfowl dog that closely matches your cover is a distinct advantage. An upland dog that contrasts with the cover is also a distinct advantage. Color and coat also have a substantial impact on how a dog holds up to heat in the uplands. To state it has no bearing in my eyes is an open admission of inexperience. With that in mind, IMO, it is worth the extra effort to seek out a stellar liter with the coat that best suits what your plans for the dog includes. If your ideal color is yellow or brown, your search may be considerably more difficult than black.


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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Leonardo] #7005548 12/21/17 04:34 PM
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Flight C Master National Stats

137 Total Dogs 48 qualified 35%

87 males 38 qualified 44% 50 females 10 qualified 20%

59 BLM 21 qualified 36% 33 BLF 9 qualified 27%

17 YLM 10 qualified 59% 10 YLF 1 qualified 10%

4 CLM 3 qualified 75% 4 CLF 0 qualified 0%

10 other 4 qualified (4 golden males 2 qualified, 2 GF 0 qualified, 2 chessie males 1 qualified, 1 chessie female 0 qualified, 1 NSM 1 qualified)

This flight had some pro's whose name I am familiar with; Clark Kennington, Chris Jobman, Chris Akin, Kirk Wichman and Eddie Noga

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7005555 12/21/17 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Leonardo
Originally Posted By: Guy
Color in of itself does not have anything to do with performance, it’s like asking what is faster, a red or black corvette.


Well I am going to disagree with this statement. Unlike a corvette, what is under the hood of a lab is not always equal.

What is under the hood of a corvette is not the same either, it is what is under the hood that matters, not the color “in of itself”. Go do your analysis and you may find red corvettes are faster, but it won’t be because of color.

I’m going to add to this. If you did this analysis and did find red corvettes are faster, it wouldn’t be because of color in of itself, but probably the people that buy red corvettes tend to hop them up more, as an example. If this was the case, and you randomly had to choose a corvett, and all you looked at was color, statistical if you bought a red corvette your odds of getting a faster one are better. But if you look under the hood of the cars you want to buy, color would have nothing to do with your decision if performance was what you were after.


So we are agreeing or disagreeing? Not to dive off into a genetics hole but you have to consider color as a factor in breeding to get pups that are of color. With black being dominate breeders actively pursue a different outcome.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Leonardo] #7005562 12/21/17 04:49 PM
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Based on your numbers, black comes in last.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Leonardo] #7005580 12/21/17 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Leonardo
So we are agreeing or disagreeing?

Probably talking past each other which is normal in dog threads. Not sure how to make my point any more clear. I do agree over all there would be more top dogs out there if breeder's did not make color a reason for their choice in breeding, but black breeders can be guilty of this as well.

But if you give me a list of litters to look at and pic the best one for trainability/competition, I'm looking at pedigree, not color.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7005583 12/21/17 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: Guy
Based on your numbers, black comes in last.



I am not arguing for black. I personally like color on my dogs as long as its yellow! There are so many factors the hole is endless to find out if there is any real substance to it. How many dogs are pursuing the Master National or NFC, how many of each are being bred for those purposes, how many of each are running on the weekends, ect....

With only limited information accounted for at this time I do think there are some interesting numbers showing up. People can choose to do what they want with them or even if it interest them in the least bit. Doesn't matter to me.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7005591 12/21/17 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Leonardo
So we are agreeing or disagreeing?

Probably talking past each other which is normal in dog threads. Not sure how to make my point any more clear. I do agree over all there would be more top dogs out there if breeder's did not make color a reason for their choice in breeding, but black breeders can be guilty of this as well.

But if you give me a list of litters to look at and pic the best one for trainability/competition, I'm looking at pedigree, not color.


I agree. Lately I have been paying real close attention to the "offspring" button on hunting lab pedigree and you can get there on retriever results as well. Pretty quick overview of what they are capable of.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7005676 12/21/17 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Guy
[quote=Leonardo]
But if you give me a list of litters to look at and pic the best one for trainability/competition, I'm looking at pedigree, not color.


Exactly!

Anyone buying a pup for competition, tests or hunting should look at pedigree then research the parents on ability, temperament and what their pups from previous litters are like. Color should be the last thing you look at and if more than one litter meets all of your specifications then pick which color you like. Then if everything else is equal pick the better looking dog.

Or if you just really want a chocolate or yellow be patient and wait till you find a litter in that color that meets all the first priorities. You might just have to wait longer.


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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: BradyBuck] #7005857 12/21/17 08:24 PM
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I have one of Maestro's pups. At first, he was very laid back and I thought he was broken, LOL. It was more than likely my inexperience that didn't help. I had also picked up a TUBB female pup. Both the same age and she was extremely high drive. I was later told that having two pups at the same time can sometimes cause one of them to take the back seat compared to the other one. But one day, his light bulb turned on and he was all go. His sibling went to a one pup home and from a very young age was all go. I know all pups are not the same, even from the same litter. My maestro pup is now 8 months and at training and he's coming along very well.
Originally Posted By: BradyBuck
It's all about the pedigree and then doing your research on the dogs in the pedigree. The letters in front of or behind their name only tell you so much.

All those stats tell me is that it's a lot easier to find a good black pedigree vs a yellow or chocolate pedigree.

Doesn't mean good chocolate pedigrees don't exist it just means they are more rare.

I guess that means y'all need to be watching for when I breed my choc female this spring to that 1 chocolate male that ran in the National this year...

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Maestro will probably be FC by the time of the breeding (1 point away) and Kimber hopefully HRCH


Coming May/June! Lol!

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: 2good2Btru] #7005978 12/21/17 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: 2good2Btru
I have one of Maestro's pups. At first, he was very laid back and I thought he was broken, LOL. It was more than likely my inexperience that didn't help. I had also picked up a TUBB female pup. Both the same age and she was extremely high drive. I was later told that having two pups at the same time can sometimes cause one of them to take the back seat compared to the other one. But one day, his light bulb turned on and he was all go. His sibling went to a one pup home and from a very young age was all go. I know all pups are not the same, even from the same litter. My maestro pup is now 8 months and at training and he's coming along very well.
[/quote]

Good to hear!

I have spoken to probably close to 12+ Maestro pup owners now with only a couple having a few issues.

I am very excited about breeding him to my girl Kimber.


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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Smokey Bear] #7006442 12/22/17 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7006504 12/22/17 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


And why is that? Who is the top yellow in ft this year? Or chocolate? What color won the top awards this year? All three were black. Top amateur dog, and all age dog (amater and open combined) was black, he also won the top purina Amateur award And is amateur trained.(he was three yrs old) There is 1 yellow (Hudson) in the top ten high point am. No chocolates, Goldens or chessies.

Robby

Last edited by Birdhunter61; 12/22/17 04:39 AM.
Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7006590 12/22/17 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


For FT prospect the fact is when you go to start looking 95% of all the litters you are going to be looking at will be black.

It's putting cart before the horse. It's not that you won't probably end up with a black puppy it's that you say you'd start with looking at black litters. Don't start by looking at black litters, start by looking at the best FT dogs and it will just happen to be that most of them are black. If you just go looking at any ol black litter and say "well this litter is black I bet they'll be good field trial dogs because black dogs dominate field trials" you will be sorely disappointed.

Again, that doesn't mean that there aren't some possibilities of getting a good FT prospect in another color it's just that there are ton more good FT breedings that are black.

However, how many people on the forum besides Robby are going to be running in any FTs any time soon???

The fact is while FT's are dominated by black dogs it's not hard to find a very very good hunt test breeding in chocolate or yellow and end up with a dog 99% of people would be proud to share a blind with or walk up to the line with at a HT.



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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Birdhunter61] #7006673 12/22/17 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Birdhunter61
Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


And why is that?

That question has already been answered.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Birdhunter61] #7006706 12/22/17 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Birdhunter61
Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


And why is that? Who is the top yellow in ft this year? Or chocolate? What color won the top awards this year? All three were black. Top amateur dog, and all age dog (amater and open combined) was black, he also won the top purina Amateur award And is amateur trained.(he was three yrs old) There is 1 yellow (Hudson) in the top ten high point am. No chocolates, Goldens or chessies.

Robby

So the black dogs that won, they won because they were black? And if those black dogs that won, if they happen to come out of mama a different color, they don’t win because of that?

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: BradyBuck] #7006756 12/22/17 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: BradyBuck
Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


For FT prospect the fact is when you go to start looking 95% of all the litters you are going to be looking at will be black.

It's putting cart before the horse. It's not that you won't probably end up with a black puppy it's that you say you'd start with looking at black litters. Don't start by looking at black litters, start by looking at the best FT dogs and it will just happen to be that most of them are black. If you just go looking at any ol black litter and say "well this litter is black I bet they'll be good field trial dogs because black dogs dominate field trials" you will be sorely disappointed.

Again, that doesn't mean that there aren't some possibilities of getting a good FT prospect in another color it's just that there are ton more good FT breedings that are black.

However, how many people on the forum besides Robby are going to be running in any FTs any time soon???

The fact is while FT's are dominated by black dogs it's not hard to find a very very good hunt test breeding in chocolate or yellow and end up with a dog 99% of people would be proud to share a blind with or walk up to the line with at a HT.

I agree with all that. But comments like smokey makes me wonder how many trainers deselect FT prospects because they are not black. Which could add to the reasoning why 95% are black. A dog gets handed a yellow/choc gene, and that will make the dog less trainable/hinder testing performance vs a black gene, I don't buy it. Color is cosmetic only, just like the color of a car, and like color of people as well.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Leonardo] #7006883 12/22/17 02:16 PM
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Wrong, everyone knows Red cars are faster than yellow cars


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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Leonardo] #7006888 12/22/17 02:17 PM
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As for me, I got a choc pup that I am thrilled with. Trainer has been thrilled with her too. See you boys at the FT's later this year. Gonna help skew the numbers a bit for you wink


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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: LTC Realty] #7007144 12/22/17 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Young Gun 12
As for me, I got a choc pup that I am thrilled with. Trainer has been thrilled with her too. See you boys at the FT's later this year. Gonna help skew the numbers a bit for you wink


Hope your right. Love seening the brown dogs competing.


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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7007253 12/22/17 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


In the last 40 years what are the percentages of Black NFC's? What color are the best producing FT sires of all time? In the last 10 years what are the percentages of black NFC's? If I wanted to play the FT game I would want some of that to start with. Black is the dominant color gene and way more common. The black FT dogs have been bred strictly for performance with no bias toward the best available in a given color. They are the only color that can be said about. Consequently there are a lot more proven black liters available.

What exactly is ignorant about that?


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Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


In the last 40 years what are the percentages of Black NFC's? What color are the best producing FT sires of all time? In the last 10 years what are the percentages of black NFC's? If I wanted to play the FT game I would want some of that to start with. Black is the dominant color gene and way more common. The black FT dogs have been bred strictly for performance with no bias toward the best available in a given color. They are the only color that can be said about. Consequently there are a lot more proven black liters available.

What exactly is ignorant about that?


I agree with Smokey.

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Smokey Bear] #7007318 12/22/17 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
Originally Posted By: Guy
Originally Posted By: Smokey Bear
If I was looking for a FT prospect black is where I would start.

That’s ignorant.


In the last 40 years what are the percentages of Black NFC's? What color are the best producing FT sires of all time? In the last 10 years what are the percentages of black NFC's? If I wanted to play the FT game I would want some of that to start with. Black is the dominant color gene and way more common. The black FT dogs have been bred strictly for performance with no bias toward the best available in a given color. They are the only color that can be said about. Consequently there are a lot more proven black liters available.

What exactly is ignorant about that?

So help me understand what you are saying. Lets say there is this awesome dog pedigree online tool, gives you any stat you want to look at a pup, not only litter/ancestry, but also the pup after born, certain behaviors etc.., and calculates a value for probability to be a FT champ (you get to set the value calculation assumptions) . Are you saying if you had this tool, you filter out choc and yellow labs? And if you didn't, and you see the yellow pup has a value higher than the black pup, you would take the black pup anyway because after all, black dogs win more? If you answer yes to this, then I think that is ignorant.


Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Leonardo] #7007328 12/22/17 05:33 PM
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I think what Guy is saying is that while yes, black dog dominate field trials it's not because they are black. The color has nothing to do with it. You wouldn't buy a black lab an just think it's going to be great just because it's black.

I don't think anyone would argue that.

If you were looking for a field trial prospect you would go look at litters from the top Field trial dogs and they would be black.

I have seen several litters in the last year by different AFC FC chocolate sires and you could definitely look at getting your next FT prospect out of a couple of those litters.


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Re: Is Color Important? [Re: BradyBuck] #7007339 12/22/17 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: BradyBuck
I think what Guy is saying is that while yes, black dog dominate field trials it's not because they are black. The color has nothing to do with it. You wouldn't buy a black lab an just think it's going to be great just because it's black.

I don't think anyone would argue that.

I'm not so sure about that! rofl popcorn

Re: Is Color Important? [Re: Guy] #7007489 12/22/17 07:31 PM
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Let me ask a question, this should make my point crystal clear. This is a question for smokey and whoever. Lets say there is a litter you must pick from. 2 pups, same litter. These 2 pups are identical. I mean the weight the same, walk the same, bark them same...You throw a stick, both pups run to it and both grab it at the same time, they play tug of war over it, no one wins, they both fall asleep same time from exhaustion. I mean you examine these pups, they are exactly the same, except one difference, one is black and one is yellow. Which one you say has a higher probability, given same trainer, to become a FT champ? I say both are equally the same.

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