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#6997969 - 12/15/17 03:48 PM “Accurate” - What is it?
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 2925
There are endless posts talking about how accurate a rifle is, followed by a photo showing a nice group, which is nowhere near the bullseye/intended point of aim.

For hunting and tactical applications, small groups are helpful, but the ability to RELIABLY and CONSISTENTLY put the cold bore shot on a 1 MOA size target is my measure of accuracy. The bullet going where intended is the metric.

1/4 MOA groups that are nowhere near the bullseye are not “accurate” and do not equal an accurate rifle.

“Accuracy” requires four major components to work together:

1. rifle;

2. ammo;

3. scope including rings and base; and,

4. the shooter, which is always the most fallible component.

Other than a benchrest match, which I do not shoot, I always prefer a setup that can reliably hit 1 MOA targets with the cold bore shot over a 1/4 group shooting setup than is prone to shifting and wandering around or hard for the shooter to reliably put on the target for whatever reason.

Just some random musings on a Friday afternoon from reading some other posts.

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#6997972 - 12/15/17 03:50 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
JTS Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 12/06/12
Posts: 463
Loc: Wichita Co.
I always thought people intentionally clicked the turrets a few off the bull when grouping shots just so they don't shoot out their point of aim.

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#6997976 - 12/15/17 03:52 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 12696
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Yes!!! When talking about accuracy, I always ask a customer what kind of accuracy are you looking for? Because the one looking for 1/2 moa at 100 is a different kind of shooter looking for 1/2 moa at 1000!

(Deep thoughts, by Jeff!)
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#6998007 - 12/15/17 04:06 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
FiremanJG Offline
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 24552
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: jeffbird
For hunting and tactical applications, small groups are helpful, but the ability to RELIABLY and CONSISTENTLY put the cold bore shot on a 1 MOA size target is my measure of accuracy.

“Accuracy” requires four major components to work together:

1. rifle;

2. ammo;

3. scope including rings and base; and,

4. the shooter, which is always the most fallible component.


I almost wrote that^^ verbatim a few days ago, after I answered a PM from a member. He told me the rifles he already has, and the scopes he has. I explained, he could use one of his rifles, and get a tuned handload for it, and a better optic for shooting tighter, as well as farther. It is a system with four parts working together.

Think of a square table, with four perpendicular legs. Cut off one of the legs, and the table falls over.

In his case, he already has rifles. I recommended he look at scope/ mount (leg two), ammo (leg three), and then I will help him with the shooting part (leg four).

And by the way, cold bore on 1 MOA is a fairly tall order, for anyone. I go for it, on my range, beyond 400 yards, quite often. I don't always hit it.
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#6998064 - 12/15/17 04:39 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
blackcoal Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 9209
Loc: 60 Mi North of DFW
!
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it is the illusion of knowledge.--Stephen Hawking

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#6998081 - 12/15/17 04:49 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
BigPig Online   content
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Registered: 08/27/09
Posts: 12055
Loc: Forney, Tx
Depends on the usage. Like the OP stated, knowing where the cold bore shot is going to hit is far more important than a nice tight group for some people. Imagine being a police sniper, having to make that shot on a hostage taker and only having half his face available and just to the right is the hostages face. At 100 yards if you are 100% certain where your cold bore shot is going to hit, would you take that shot knowing the consequences?
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#6998111 - 12/15/17 05:14 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
spankyttx Online   content
Woodsman

Registered: 03/05/17
Posts: 125
i've always wondered how those tight groups are being shot from a bench, is the rifle rested in a cradle? i see a lot of them at the range. i'll use an arm rest but the my rifle forearm is still rested in my palm, just curious
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#6998123 - 12/15/17 05:24 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: JTS]
bphillips Offline
Tracker

Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 676
Loc: San Angelo
Originally Posted By: JTS
I always thought people intentionally clicked the turrets a few off the bull when grouping shots just so they don't shoot out their point of aim.

Yep then zero after load development
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#6998136 - 12/15/17 05:39 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
spankyttx Online   content
Woodsman

Registered: 03/05/17
Posts: 125
i have a savage in 308 that only likes cold bore shots, the first 3 shots have been .75 to 1.25 at 100yrds, the next 3 are 3-4 inches off and by the 6th shot, the barrel is smoking hot and when i get 7 to 9 shots, the barrel is actually smoking, normal? none of my other rifles do this
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#6998154 - 12/15/17 06:01 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
Theringworm Offline
Tracker

Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 523
Loc: Midland, TX
Jeffbird, what you describe seeing is actually not a display of ACCURACY (though that is how people frequently describe it) but rather it is a display of PRECISION. These are two very different terms. First lets define the term PRECISION since that is what we often see and unfortunately is used inappropriately when, as you have described, someone shares a photo of a target with the bullseye being their aim point but their group is away from it but very tight.

PRECISION is defined as how close measurements are to each other. Here is a picture of a very precise group. Notice how small the measurements are from each bullet whole. However, they are not close to the intended aimpoint which is the bullseye.



ACCURACY is defined as how close measurements are to the true value. Take for instance this photo. The bullet wholes are all roughly close to the intended aiming point, the center of the target. This would be defined as accuracy.



An ACCURATE and PRECISE target would look like the following, where the PRECISION shows a tight group and the ACCURACY is shown by it being on top of the aim point, ie. the center of the bullseye. This is what, in my opinion one hopes to achieve and would accurately describe a target where one has center punched a tight group.



This discussion can go even further when you talk about REPEATABILITY (results from the same shooter and same rifle) and REPRODUCIBILITY (results from a different shooter and the same rifle).

Lots of good articles and websites describing all of this, which is where I pulled it from.

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#6998163 - 12/15/17 06:11 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: jeffbird]
scalebuster Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 11/25/10
Posts: 3051
Accuracy is hitting what you aim at on game. It doesn’t matter if you’re neck shooting a deer over a feeder or shooting a coyote running across the pasture. If you hit what you’re aiming at your accurate. If you’re rifle shoots small groups where you point it when sighting in you’ll be a lot more accurate on animals.

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#6998182 - 12/15/17 06:41 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: Theringworm]
Big Fitz Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 2411
Loc: Prosper, TX
Originally Posted By: Theringworm
Jeffbird, what you describe seeing is actually not a display of ACCURACY (though that is how people frequently describe it) but rather it is a display of PRECISION. These are two very different terms. First lets define the term PRECISION since that is what we often see and unfortunately is used inappropriately when, as you have described, someone shares a photo of a target with the bullseye being their aim point but their group is away from it but very tight.

PRECISION is defined as how close measurements are to each other. Here is a picture of a very precise group. Notice how small the measurements are from each bullet whole. However, they are not close to the intended aimpoint which is the bullseye.



ACCURACY is defined as how close measurements are to the true value. Take for instance this photo. The bullet wholes are all roughly close to the intended aiming point, the center of the target. This would be defined as accuracy.



An ACCURATE and PRECISE target would look like the following, where the PRECISION shows a tight group and the ACCURACY is shown by it being on top of the aim point, ie. the center of the bullseye. This is what, in my opinion one hopes to achieve and would accurately describe a target where one has center punched a tight group.



This discussion can go even further when you talk about REPEATABILITY (results from the same shooter and same rifle) and REPRODUCIBILITY (results from a different shooter and the same rifle).

Lots of good articles and websites describing all of this, which is where I pulled it from.

up I see an engineer here that is familiar with GR&R studies. Spot on!
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#6998208 - 12/15/17 07:13 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: BigPig]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 24552
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: BigPig
Depends on the usage. Like the OP stated, knowing where the cold bore shot is going to hit is far more important than a nice tight group for some people. Imagine being a police sniper, having to make that shot on a hostage taker and only having half his face available and just to the right is the hostages face. At 100 yards if you are 100% certain where your cold bore shot is going to hit, would you take that shot knowing the consequences?


Don't bring that up. I've shot with lots of PD Snipers this year.
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#6998211 - 12/15/17 07:15 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: spankyttx]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 24552
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: spankyttx
i have a savage in 308 that only likes cold bore shots, the first 3 shots have been .75 to 1.25 at 100yrds, the next 3 are 3-4 inches off and by the 6th shot, the barrel is smoking hot and when i get 7 to 9 shots, the barrel is actually smoking, normal? none of my other rifles do this


There is only one cold bore shot.

Your next three are due to barrel heating. Thicker the barrel, the more shots it takes to develop fliers.
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#6998217 - 12/15/17 07:18 PM Re: “Accurate” - What is it? [Re: Big Fitz]
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 24552
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: Big Fitz
I see an engineer here that is familiar with GR&R studies. Spot on!


He's a medical doctor, Tim.
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