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#6917348 - 10/11/17 08:15 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: RiverRider]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 21362
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I don't understand why so many people differentiate between shooting paper and steel, versus game.


It is because those of us who do not plan to shoot beyond 200 or 300


Nowhere did I mention BC or distance. I only mentioned testing. I even told a story of 100 and 300 yards that happened two weeks ago. There were more misses, at both distances, that first round hits, from other hunters.
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#6917354 - 10/11/17 08:19 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7186
Loc: Wise Co.
Oh. I guess I kinda missed your point. Badly. (I guess I need to check my own zero.)

And you're right, of course...gotta put that bullet in the right place.
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Originally Posted By: Ronald Reagan
It's not that liberals are not smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so.

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#6917357 - 10/11/17 08:20 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
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Loc: Corsicana
Is there any accurate, science-based info that shows the effects on accuracy inconsistent/varying powder weights causes?

I have an almost 40 year old Sako that has always shot Winchester PowerPoint 150 grain factory ammo. Now, I know that since 1979 that ammo has had to have many, many changes in powder brand/type/suppliers, many periods of varying consistency of grain weights between cases, and probably undergone dozens of other changes over the years.

Yet my rifle has always shot it well, and does not shoot others I have tried as well (some horribly). I just assume that barrel favors the 150 grain PowerPoint bullet and would probably shoot it well in any somewhat reasonably consistently loaded cartridge.

IDK for sure though because I've never tried it.
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Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.



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#6917376 - 10/11/17 08:30 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: FiremanJG]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I don't understand why so many people differentiate between shooting paper and steel, versus game.


It is because those of us who do not plan to shoot beyond 200 or 300


Nowhere did I mention BC or distance. I only mentioned testing. I even told a story of 100 and 300 yards that happened two weeks ago. There were more misses, at both distances, that first round hits, from other hunters.


That kinda depends on the group.
We did something similar before my recent sheep hunt. The results were 180 degrees from what you describe.
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Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.



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#6917381 - 10/11/17 08:31 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
RiverRider Online   content
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7186
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I think that's pretty far off topic, NP, but there are several threads going right now where the topics are overlapping a bit so I can see how you went there.

I'd say the effects are well known. If this was not true, then ladder testing would be meaningless. Since it IS true, then sloppy ammunition has a chance to perform satisfactorily within certain range limits. But it is also known that sloppy (in terms of powder charge) ammunition will come up short if the range is sufficient to highlight its shortcomings.

Hope that makes sense...having a nice cool adult beverage at the moment and I can feel it.
nuts
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Originally Posted By: Ronald Reagan
It's not that liberals are not smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so.

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#6917385 - 10/11/17 08:35 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: RiverRider]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 22504
Loc: Corsicana
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
I think that's pretty far off topic, NP, but there are several threads going right now where the topics are overlapping a bit so I can see how you went there.

I'd say the effects are well known. If this was not true, then ladder testing would be meaningless. Since it IS true, then sloppy ammunition has a chance to perform satisfactorily within certain range limits. But it is also known that sloppy (in terms of powder charge) ammunition will come up short if the range is sufficient to highlight its shortcomings.

Hope that makes sense...having a nice cool adult beverage at the moment and I can feel it.
nuts


Makes sense. Moral I guess is keep ranges reasonable with most factory ammo.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.



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#6917400 - 10/11/17 08:50 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: RiverRider]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 21362
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
I think that's pretty far off topic, NP, but there are several threads going right now where the topics are overlapping a bit so I can see how you went there.

I'd say the effects are well known. If this was not true, then ladder testing would be meaningless. Since it IS true, then sloppy ammunition has a chance to perform satisfactorily within certain range limits. But it is also known that sloppy (in terms of powder charge) ammunition will come up short if the range is sufficient to highlight its shortcomings.

Hope that makes sense...having a nice cool adult beverage at the moment and I can feel it.
nuts


Exactly.

Shooting 1" at 100 is easy.

Shooting 3" at 300, is not as easy.

Meaning what is inside the brass. Bullet depth, powder charge consistency, ect. ect

A poor charge consistency may look alright at 100 yards, and it'll rear its' ugly head at 300+.
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#6917558 - 10/11/17 11:19 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: FiremanJG]
Texas Dan Online   content
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Registered: 07/28/08
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG

Shooting 1" at 100 is easy.

Shooting 3" at 300, is not as easy.


If you don't mind, please reference the conditions under which this should be achievable. For example, on the bench in a sitting position with only a single, forearm rest and the arms and elbows free of support?

I ask because people here frequently share their shooting performance, but very seldom include the conditions under which their shots were made. I can shoot half-inch groups at 100 yards if you throw me a few sandbags. But ask me to use just a single rest with no body support and the groups begin to get larger.
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#6917630 - 10/12/17 06:30 AM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 22504
Loc: Corsicana
Taking the shooter out of the equation, inaccuracy means simply the bullet is not stabilized as well as it could be once it leaves the barrel. There are many reasons groups may "open up".

Ammo is one (variables within that variable - quality of powder used, powder weight consistency, seating depth/consistency, etc.).
Barrel is one (variables within that variable - proper rate of twist for bullet used, quality/consistency of barrel steel,rifling, etc., barrel thickness, etc.)
Stock and barrel "marriage" (bedding, free-floating, contact point issues, etc.)
Cleanliness issues (copper fouling, other buildup, etc.)

No doubt handloading allows for more precise (and thus consistent) ammo. And that is better for precision and/or long range shooting. For that matter better at any range since it is more accurate. But does that mean all factory ammo sucks/is inaccurate/shouldn't be used/everyone should be using handloads or they are risking their hunts? No. Certainly not at the hunting distances the vast majority of people shoot.

Factory ammo quality has improved by leaps and bounds over the past 20-30 years. Lots of serious, dedicated, and successful hunters rely on factory ammo. Sure, you usually have to play around and find what your rifle likes, but you have to do that handloading too.
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Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.



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#6917677 - 10/12/17 07:16 AM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 21362
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Since this is an ammunition discussion. I was assuming a perfectly stable rifle.
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#6917707 - 10/12/17 07:39 AM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
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Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 22504
Loc: Corsicana
The reason for my post is that this is an ammo discussion.

My point is that there are a lot of variables involved in shooting 3" groups at 300 yards. Good ammo (no matter how sourced) is only one of many.
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Originally Posted By: Russ79
I learned long ago you can't reason someone out of something they don't reason themselves into.



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#6917848 - 10/12/17 09:17 AM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
Jgraider Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 06/13/15
Posts: 620
Loc: West Texas
Wind is always the biggest problem. Nobody masters the dope 100% of the time.

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#6917910 - 10/12/17 10:06 AM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
redchevy Offline
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Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 25945
Loc: Texas
I sure wish I had an $80 box of nosler custom ammo to tear down and weigh powder charges for myself.

7 grains is about double the spread from min to max on the recommended charges from loading manuals etc. Either the manuals have nothing to do with what is safe or that ammo could have killed or seriously injured somone.
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#6918693 - 10/12/17 09:27 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Texas Dan]
Texas Dan Online   content
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Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 12234
So if I had to repeat and summarize the most common answers given....

Better brass
Tighter quality control on the amount of powder used
Higher quality powder
Better primers
Smaller production runs
Bullets made of higher cost materials with more machine work
Marketing costs and greater price margins for customers willing to pay more

Thanks guys. The discussion sometimes went over my head but was very thought provoking.
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Dan,

Spring, Texas

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#6918806 - 10/12/17 11:53 PM Re: Why is a $40 box of bullets better than one that costs less than $20? [Re: Nogalus Prairie]
Jon Online   content
Bird Dog

Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 410
Loc: Mesquite, TX
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
If you don't handload, you've usually got to try a few different factory loads to find one your rifle likes (sub MOA or less). I have had rifles that like cheap, expensive, and anything in between. I have only owned one rifle that just flat wouldn't shoot anything I tried. Accuracy is a big confidence booster, not to mention we owe it to the animals we hunt to be proficient when we pull the trigger.

For LR or benchrest shooting I'm sure handloading is the only way to go.


This ^^^ is pretty much the way I look at it.

If you don't load, it's nice if you can find a decent shooting factory load that your rifle likes without having to go through several hundred $$ to get it narrowed down. One reason being all the leftover, sometimes high $ ammo that your gun won't shoot well.

But, for what we spend nowadays in order to hunt...at the end of the day, the cost of the ammunition is really a pretty small % of the total cost involved.

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