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Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874609 08/31/17 01:56 PM
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If you buy good bullets then you don't have very many that aren't the same diameter (less than 5 per 100) and if the brass isn't the same that is my fault or there is something internally wrong...that will show up on the target and if you mark a piece of brass that consistently misses....throw it away or make it a fouler.

I know what you guys are saying but I'm telling you there are ways to measure it and if you use those methods to make your ammo consistent....it will make a difference on your target. Now, admittedly and as JG mentioned above....you have to determine when enough it enough and I will admit I have an OCD issue and my game is a lot different than being minute of deer @ 100y.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874636 08/31/17 02:23 PM
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I think what we really need to clarify is that we want consistent bullet pull . Neck tension itself would not provide it if there was variance in the lubricity inside the case necks.

If you could measure the strain on case necks after the bullet is seated, then you WOULD be measuring tension. You CAN measure seating force, and that should be a good indicator of neck tension. But it still is NOT a neck tension measurement.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874735 08/31/17 04:03 PM
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interesting discussion , but I am of the camp that this does not make any difference

IF

it's "uniform" across all loaded cases

Precision is all about being Uniform and repeatability

If the neck tension is say 20 lbs, consistently then it's going to require same
force to overcome it (uniform)

I anneal my cases every time, this guarantees that my neck is uniform in stretch
I use a bushing die that is exactly .001" smaller then my loaded case neck
I clean my brass with SS pins ( so the surface is uniformly cleaned , no variation in carbon deposits from case to case )

recent load testing with
CADEX CDX-30 6.5 mm Creedmoor
Hornady brass, Lapua 139 gr, Varget

400 yards, calm wind, best group .5"
in 20mph 3 o clock wind, 1.25"

I think that's good enough

I would concentrate on Wind reading - that's one area I cannot say I am good at
or be Uniform about prediction

Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874786 08/31/17 04:53 PM
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I don't have the ability to sweat this stuff this much. Due to the numbers of pieces of brass I deal with every year.

.22-250, 500 pieces
6.5 Creedmoor, 500 pieces
7mm-08, 500 pieces
.308, 200 pieces
7 Rem Mag, 200 pieces

So each year in loading and shooting a total of 1900 pieces of brass, and a 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm-08, .308 Win all get loaded and shot more than once, further increasing the numbers.

I use good brass, that I've uniformed. I clean and anneal on a routine, and I use good bushing dies. I've done all I'm willing to do to make the brass be the best I feel it needs to be.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874806 08/31/17 05:18 PM
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My approach to reloading is really two different gigs. I enjoy the science of it and learning the whys, ifs, and buts. I guess I'm smitten with all the learning. In my actual reloading activities, it's all a qestion of what's worth doing and what's not. Since my focus is almost all factory sporter rifles, there's a definite point of dimimishing returns.

I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to precision of expression. I goof from time to time for sure, but the habit of precision is engrained in me mostly due to my occupation. Misstatement will land me in uncomfortable spots more often than not. I don't bring that here to create conflict...I just see the value of crystal clarity.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: RiverRider] #6874842 08/31/17 06:05 PM
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I can understand the "want". I enjoy precision, obviously. Ive been getting the last bit of virgin brass fired for the 7 Rem Mag lately. Just doing my daily, off-duty rifle training. A cold bore shot 500 yards or more. The virgin brass is pretty darned consistent shooting, though not as consistent of fired brass. And the fact that I know my shoulders grow .014" from virgin to fired, fired brass makes an amazing 60 fps more.

I was teaching yesterday and i was helping my customer try and hit the little 1 MOA steel at 600 yards. Well, it was a stout, variable north wind yesterday (A gift in August) his 6.5 Creedmoor was left of the targrt, right of the target, back and forth for lots of rounds. We decided to let his barrel cool. He said "I wonder if your 7 Rem Mag can get it done". I said maybe I'll get lucky. Cold bore, 6" plate, at 600 yards. I said "Now that's fun!"

Point being, it takes lots of work at the loading bench to be able to do that. Then it takes paying close attention to external ballistics and watching for repeatability. I've got to start all over again getting DOPE on second loaded brass
By next week, when I will have shot up all that virgin brass, and load back with a .003" shoulder bump. It's supposed to create an additional 60 fps at the muzzle, since that is what it did two years ago on fired brass.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: J.G.] #6874884 08/31/17 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG


I use good brass, that I've uniformed. I clean and anneal on a routine, and I use good bushing dies. I've done all I'm willing to do to make the brass be the best I feel it needs to be.


you're doing it right

Re: change of neck tension [Re: J.G.] #6874915 08/31/17 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
I can understand the "want". I enjoy precision, obviously. Ive been getting the last bit of virgin brass fired for the 7 Rem Mag lately. Just doing my daily, off-duty rifle training. A cold bore shot 500 yards or more. The virgin brass is pretty darned consistent shooting, though not as consistent of fired brass. And the fact that I know my shoulders grow .014" from virgin to fired, fired brass makes an amazing 60 fps more.

I was teaching yesterday and i was helping my customer try and hit the little 1 MOA steel at 600 yards. Well, it was a stout, variable north wind yesterday (A gift in August) his 6.5 Creedmoor was left of the targrt, right of the target, back and forth for lots of rounds. We decided to let his barrel cool. He said "I wonder if your 7 Rem Mag can get it done". I said maybe I'll get lucky. Cold bore, 6" plate, at 600 yards. I said "Now that's fun!"

Point being, it takes lots of work at the loading bench to be able to do that. Then it takes paying close attention to external ballistics and watching for repeatability. I've got to start all over again getting DOPE on second loaded brass
By next week, when I will have shot up all that virgin brass, and load back with a .003" shoulder bump. It's supposed to create an additional 60 fps at the muzzle, since that is what it did two years ago on fired brass.


It would be interesting to kmow what you find, surprises or not.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: RiverRider] #6874941 08/31/17 07:49 PM
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Old DOPE on fire brass created 3030 fps MV in the calculator. The DOPE I'm running on now is with 2970 fps MV. Not using a chronograph, but working the corrections backward into the calculator to make things match.

I'll let you know what happens going back to fired brass.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874945 08/31/17 07:50 PM
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Tack Driver, if you have good chrono data for your load with previous case prep, when you shoot your 10 shot test group over the chrono you will have a comparison. You should then tweak your load to get the same average velocity that shoots so well and see what happens. A common theme I have found is lowest ES is often found just below maximum pressure. When that charge is exceeded, velocity often looses consistency. An increase in neck tension on a load that already has its back against the wall can be enough of a pressure increase to bump you over the pressure that is giving you the consistent burn rate and pressure needed to achieve the low ES you were getting. With precision ammo, when something is changed it is necessary to re-work things to re-create the same dynamics that performed for you. Sometimes the change will be workable, other times it needs to be scrapped.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6874979 08/31/17 08:14 PM
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I wasn't going to comment since the BS is getting deep and I'm not wearing my rubber boots. But yes, you can "measure" neck tension. There are multiple methods to measure it. The most common method (and easiest) is figuring out the neck tension in .001" increments. On most of my 6.5mm calibers, you have a loaded round diameter of say, .292", and I size with a .289" bushing, I am putting .003" neck tension on the case. This is simply measured in .001" increments, that's all. It gives you a consistent "number" to size your brass to, and return to the same neck tension on future reloads. If I want more neck tension, then I get a smaller bushing for more neck tension. In this case, I am measuring it in .001" increments. It is measured and will apply more or less neck tension on the bullet if I want to, by going to a smaller or larger bushing. By increasing or decreasing the bushing size, I am getting more or less neck tension. Exactly the ft lbs of force holding the bullet in place- I don't care. What I want is a consistent and repeatable neck tension from round to round. What "specifically" the force needed to pull a bullet from the case is, not sure, but it's not a lot. See my next method...

The method most on here are speaking of is the amount of force needed to remove a bullet from the neck of a loaded round. How much force or energy needed to remove a bullet from a case. This could be accomplished, but you would have to have a gauge on the press when pulling a bullet to measure the amount of force when pulling it out. I have pulled enough bullets with an RCBS collet puller to know there is certainly a difference in tension in pulling certain bullets out of various loaded ammo. When I have pulled bullets on my personal ammo, it does not require much force at all. I keep my neck tensions in check, and know specifically what I want, and load to that figure each time. This keeps my ammo very consistent from lot to lot. I have pulled factory ammo that required A LOT of force to get the bullet out of the case. Why? Virgin brass, crimped case mouth, bullets scratched up during bullet seating from rough case mouths on the brass creating more neck tension between the case mouth and bullet surface, you name it.

If you were to pull bullets on virgin brass and compare pulling bullets on fired brass (that has a carbon build up from being fired), the fired brass with the carbon build up would certainly have an easier force to remove the bullet out of the case. The carbon build up allows a barrier between each surface for the bullet to slide on, or release from. The kinetic friction between the bullet and fired case will allow it to be smoother, requiring less force.

Here's the main point- On virgin brass, there is an element of metal fusion or cold welding happening. This cold welding is between the brass case and copper bullet. What is cold welding- "is a solid-state welding process in which joining takes place without fusion/heating at the interface of the two parts to be welded. Unlike in the fusion-welding processes, no liquid or molten phase is present in the joint.... It was then discovered that two clean, flat surfaces of similar metal would strongly adhere if brought into contact under vacuum.....The reason for this unexpected behavior is that when the atoms in contact are all of the same kind, there is no way for the atoms to “know” that they are in different pieces of copper. When there are other atoms, in the oxides and greases and more complicated thin surface layers of contaminants in between, the atoms “know” when they are not on the same part...."

So, copper is one of the main metals this cold welding happens to. What's brass made out of...? About 70%-80% Copper and the rest zinc and other metals. What's the outside of a bullet made of...? Copper! So, there is certainly an element of cold welding happening on virgin brass. This same process is happening on brass that has been cleaned so hard that the brass case is now back to it's brand new finish. Measuring bullet tension on a loaded round with virgin brass and a copper bullet would certainly have more tension than if you loaded it on a fired case (keeping the measured neck tension the same, by .001" bushings).

A lot of competition shooters would load their ammo days before, and load the bullets long. Right before a shooting match, they would seat the bullets deeper to the proper seating depth. This seating right before the match would help break the cold welding happening on virgin brass. This issue is there, and it is a known problem.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: ChadTRG42] #6875016 08/31/17 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
I wasn't going to comment since the BS is getting deep and I'm not wearing my rubber boots. But yes, you can "measure" neck tension. There are multiple methods to measure it. The most common method (and easiest) is figuring out the neck tension in .001" increments. On most of my 6.5mm calibers, you have a loaded round diameter of say, .292", and I size with a .289" bushing, I am putting .003" neck tension on the case. This is simply measured in .001" increments, that's all. It gives you a consistent "number" to size your brass to, and return to the same neck tension on future reloads. If I want more neck tension, then I get a smaller bushing for more neck tension. In this case, I am measuring it in .001" increments. It is measured and will apply more or less neck tension on the bullet if I want to, by going to a smaller or larger bushing. By increasing or decreasing the bushing size, I am getting more or less neck tension. Exactly the ft lbs of force holding the bullet in place- I don't care. What I want is a consistent and repeatable neck tension from round to round. What "specifically" the force needed to pull a bullet from the case is, not sure, but it's not a lot. See my next method...

The method most on here are speaking of is the amount of force needed to remove a bullet from the neck of a loaded round. How much force or energy needed to remove a bullet from a case. This could be accomplished, but you would have to have a gauge on the press when pulling a bullet to measure the amount of force when pulling it out. I have pulled enough bullets with an RCBS collet puller to know there is certainly a difference in tension in pulling certain bullets out of various loaded ammo. When I have pulled bullets on my personal ammo, it does not require much force at all. I keep my neck tensions in check, and know specifically what I want, and load to that figure each time. This keeps my ammo very consistent from lot to lot. I have pulled factory ammo that required A LOT of force to get the bullet out of the case. Why? Virgin brass, crimped case mouth, bullets scratched up during bullet seating from rough case mouths on the brass creating more neck tension between the case mouth and bullet surface, you name it.

If you were to pull bullets on virgin brass and compare pulling bullets on fired brass (that has a carbon build up from being fired), the fired brass with the carbon build up would certainly have an easier force to remove the bullet out of the case. The carbon build up allows a barrier between each surface for the bullet to slide on, or release from. The kinetic friction between the bullet and fired case will allow it to be smoother, requiring less force.

Here's the main point- On virgin brass, there is an element of metal fusion or cold welding happening. This cold welding is between the brass case and copper bullet. What is cold welding- "is a solid-state welding process in which joining takes place without fusion/heating at the interface of the two parts to be welded. Unlike in the fusion-welding processes, no liquid or molten phase is present in the joint.... It was then discovered that two clean, flat surfaces of similar metal would strongly adhere if brought into contact under vacuum.....The reason for this unexpected behavior is that when the atoms in contact are all of the same kind, there is no way for the atoms to “know” that they are in different pieces of copper. When there are other atoms, in the oxides and greases and more complicated thin surface layers of contaminants in between, the atoms “know” when they are not on the same part...."

So, copper is one of the main metals this cold welding happens to. What's brass made out of...? About 70%-80% Copper and the rest zinc and other metals. What's the outside of a bullet made of...? Copper! So, there is certainly an element of cold welding happening on virgin brass. This same process is happening on brass that has been cleaned so hard that the brass case is now back to it's brand new finish. Measuring bullet tension on a loaded round with virgin brass and a copper bullet would certainly have more tension than if you loaded it on a fired case (keeping the measured neck tension the same, by .001" bushings).

A lot of competition shooters would load their ammo days before, and load the bullets long. Right before a shooting match, they would seat the bullets deeper to the proper seating depth. This seating right before the match would help break the cold welding happening on virgin brass. This issue is there, and it is a known problem.


Well stated sir. Thank you. I know scraped the ss pins but I never did enough work to say I could not get the same consistency


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875022 08/31/17 08:59 PM
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Oh snap...Chad brings up cold welding...now this thread has some potential. Don't you know Chad that isn't something that exists rofl

FWIW...I have convinced myself through TESTING that something happens on loaded rounds that sit. Call it what you want, but something is going on. I can prove it to someone but they have to be sitting with me and I have to have old and new ammo to demo with.

Bottom line to everyone....there is a lot of good info in this post and others on this forum but don't take any of our word for it....go TEST that is the single best piece of advice I can give anyone....convince yourself one way or the other thru testing, burning powder, primers, barrels and bullets.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875033 08/31/17 09:17 PM
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Yeah, I'll go as technical as needed. But dang! I got my rubber boots on now!


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875053 08/31/17 09:43 PM
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Smokey Bear and TackDriver,

I'm not saying don't use them. There are many people who use the SS cleaning, and it works just fine. But you just need to know what the issues are when using them. If you work up a load this way, and keep doing it this way, it will remain consistent for you. If you switch back and forth from SS media to corn cob/walnut media, you will see a difference in your ammo between the 2 brass types. The SS media is not for me for multiple reasons. Mainly, because I don't want to mess with the pins and water, and have to dry them out. I like throwing brass in corn cob and/or walnut media and turning on a tumbler and letting it run for 8 hours. It's simple for me, and quick. Plus, for competition shooting, the other issue of high ES numbers on the ammo.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: ChadTRG42] #6875082 08/31/17 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Yeah, I'll go as technical as needed. But dang! I got my rubber boots on now!


Skip the rubber boots and go to the hip waders or chest waders

Dissimilar metals touching will create a small electrical current between them, some metals more current than others, under pressure such as neck tension or through manufacturing techniques and metal choices we take advantage of it every day, ever hear of a thermocouple.

I could be completely off base but a brass bullet in a brass case I doubt would "cold weld"

An insulator like powder fouling could very easily reduce the metal to metal contact and reduce cold welding.

It has been almost 30 years I designed and built a fixture to test and qualify Thermal Electric coolers for optical transmission device lasers for Rockwell International. Testing 100 at a time using thermocouples to measure the temperature on the cold side of the TECs. We used the same metal contact for all "copper" since it was handy, cheap and available. The measuring thermocouples were held in place by pressure on copper sandwiching them between the TECs and small copper plates worked quite well and was repeatable.

Over the course of testing through temperature extremes in environmental chambers there was a little evidence of cold welding within the fixture. TEC to copper when changing them out after the first batch testing there was a bond between copper and thermocouples but since it was consistent throughout it worked well and was calculated for.

All that to say I fully believe there is a Cold weld that can take place between dissimulate metals. How much between gilding metal and brass I do not know.

Sorry for the long post but brought back memories of a fun project


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875094 08/31/17 10:30 PM
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Bottom line in reloading we try to take out as many variables/inconsistencies to produce the most consistent loads we can. It is a never ending quest for some while others myself included work on the theory get it good enough for our purpose.

Unlike some I will clean brass if it has gotten in the dirt but if it has some tarnish from handling but is still clean I will load it up and shoot it. With tarnished but otherwise clean brass I have at least according to my chronograph had many loads in the single digits ES and most of those shot little for me groups. Some of the best shooting loads I have ever loaded were with brass on its third loading without cleaning, the only thing that was bright was the bullet and primer, I do run a plastic brush through the neck to remove some of the lead fouling though. Sure they don't look like new ammo but as long as they perform I am happy.

I am not OCD cheers


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875263 09/01/17 01:47 AM
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Quote:


In physics, tension, as a transmitted force, as an action-reaction pair of forces, or as a restoring force, is a force and has the units of force measured in newtons (or sometimes pounds-force).


When you speak of linear dimensional changes, you are talking about strain.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875264 09/01/17 01:47 AM
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Two different animals.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: kmon11] #6875267 09/01/17 01:50 AM
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I'm literally in the trust mode with cold metal welding, trusting Judd, and Chad. They've seen the results, and they are the two guys I ask questions, if I have them.

But I am fighting off 21 years of being a welder. And of the tens of thousands of welds I've made, all of them required heat. It was interesting for me to learn that aluminum requires significantly more heat than steel of equal thickness. Copper welding? I've not tried that yet, but I can find a chart that is going to tell me how much heat, via amperage, it would require.

I'm simply speculating here, that in a heat weld, I am asking it to bond in seconds, thus the need for heat. In this cold weld theory, we are talking little heat (ambient air) but a greater length of time. Of course the weld will not be nearly as strong, but there may still be somewhat of a weld. I just don't know. Therefore back to trusting some people I believe know what they're talking about. So much so that I am about to slowly get caught up on loading my 6.5 Creedmoor, which really mainly gets used for shooting matches to preserve barrel life. I'm going to charge the cases the slow way I've created for myself, but seat them long, and final seat the day before I need them. Judd and I have had several conversations about this.

For those that have never seen it, there's an ongoing joke among PRS shooters, making fun of their own procrastination. Guys have stayed up burning the midnight oil, the night before a big match, loading all their ammo. And it was just because of procrastination, not on purpose. But guess what? Their ammo shoots terrific the next two days.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875280 09/01/17 02:00 AM
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There is a manufacturing process that utilizes the cold weld phenomenon. On the molecular level, some of the two different materials will migrate into each other. It's not a galvanic process, it is physical.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875283 09/01/17 02:04 AM
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Time and pressure make it happen. Temperature...I don't know, but based on what I know about science, increased temperature should accelerate the process.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: RiverRider] #6875301 09/01/17 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
increased temperature should accelerate the process.


Which is what I was saying about the weld that happens in a second, or less. Extreme high heat, extreme shortening of time to complete the process.


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Re: change of neck tension [Re: J.G.] #6875679 09/01/17 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
increased temperature should accelerate the process.


Which is what I was saying about the weld that happens in a second, or less. Extreme high heat, extreme shortening of time to complete the process.




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Re: change of neck tension [Re: TackDriver] #6875768 09/01/17 05:40 PM
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Interesting stuff!! I have loaded up some SS tumbled 6.5 x 284 and the .308 later today. The 6.5 x 284 have seated softly so far even with bare necks, its .001" neck tension. It's the stickiness of the bullets to the bare metal that I am concerned that may throw the way it shoots off course again. Hopefully tomorrow I'll test them at the range. Will keep ya'll posted.

Going to take the 7 Mag that I done a ladder test two weeks ago with Retumbo and 160 Accubonds for deer season before I SS tumbled. I found a nice cluster and velocity of 3100 fps which outstanding. So far I have not shot any loads with SS tumbled brass yet. Tomorrow is trial day.

Last edited by TackDriver; 09/01/17 10:29 PM.
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