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#6873744 - 08/30/17 12:23 PM change of neck tension
TackDriver Online   content
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Registered: 05/02/14
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Since a couple of my rifles shoots like a dream, before I SS tumbled, and have been using the vibratory tumbler and have seen some carbon on the inside of necks before I seated them. Now after SS tumbling, there is no carbon on inside of the necks at all, will it affect accuracy? Will it affect bullet tension? Wondering before I load 100 rounds for each rifle.


Edited by TackDriver (08/30/17 12:24 PM)

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#6873747 - 08/30/17 12:25 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
Judd Offline


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 11411
Loc: Sachse, TX
It could affect accuracy and it will effect tension. No hard and fast rule here...couple things you can do to help combat it....run an expander in the case or use bullet/neck dry lube.

Good luck.
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#6873755 - 08/30/17 12:36 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
ChadTRG42 Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 11492
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Yes, you will see a major difference. The carbon build up helps act like a coating that allows the bullet to slide into the neck and create a consistent smooth surface. When you SS clean the brass, it removes the carbon and gets the brass back to bare brass. Add in the cleaning solution and the necks become more "sticky". The guys that I shot competitions with that were running SS media, had very high ES (extreme spreads) in their ammo. You would see vertical stringing issues at 800+ yards, simply due to the SS cleaning method. Most went back to walnut or corn cob because of this. But their brass was super clean! SS media has it's benefits, but it can also have it's draw backs. It's not for me.
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#6873795 - 08/30/17 01:11 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
TackDriver Online   content
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Registered: 05/02/14
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bang


Edited by TackDriver (08/30/17 01:12 PM)

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#6873861 - 08/30/17 02:22 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
RiverRider Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7296
Loc: Wise Co.
Shoot some and see!
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#6873905 - 08/30/17 03:03 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
ChadTRG42 Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
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Originally Posted By: TackDriver
bang


Try it and see. You won't know until you try it. Try the neck lube for assistance. I have a white powdered mica I sometimes use for really firm necks.
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#6874078 - 08/30/17 05:48 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
TackDriver Online   content
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Registered: 05/02/14
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I know, I reacted too soon. Going to make a 10 round sample first. Thanks popcorn

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#6874167 - 08/30/17 07:01 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
M16 Offline
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Registered: 09/13/05
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So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?

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#6874187 - 08/30/17 07:29 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
jeh7mmmag Online   happy
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Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 12907
Loc: Colleyville, DFW, TX
The bare metal in neck (Brass) could be causing Galvanic corrosion with bullet (copper [dissimilar material] ) or Cold Weld as RR has discussed. Add in some of the corrosive acids used to make nitro powder. I Don't' know if any commercial ammo is loaded with something on bullet or neck to inhibit corrosion. But lot of military ammo has a black tar like substance at the neck / bullet juncture. This could be a sealer or corrosion inhibiter such as No Corrode ?

https://www.nace.org/Corrosion-Central/Corrosion-101/Galvanic-Corrosion/
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#6874218 - 08/30/17 07:51 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: M16]
RiverRider Offline
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Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7296
Loc: Wise Co.
Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.
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#6874237 - 08/30/17 08:05 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: RiverRider]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
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Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.


RiverRider ain't wrong.

M16,

Do ammunition manufacturers produce ammo as high quality as expert hand loaders? Absolutely Not! Expert hand loaders sweat everything if they are searching for a certain level of precision. Judd, in Bench rest, sweats more than I do. I sweat more than the average hunter. It is a linear scale. I'm on one end of it, and have requirements, and due to my requirements I prefer second fired brass, with some carbon in the neck, and processed to my standards.

The end result is what I want it to be. Therefore I maintain my stance, that I really do not like virgin brass. In fact, I call it a great win, that I purchased 500 pieces of once fired 6.5 Creedmoor brass for $0.50 each, shipped. It's less money, and better brass than virgin brass. It has carbon inside it, and I can set head space for my chamber.
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#6874270 - 08/30/17 08:37 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: FiremanJG]
M16 Offline
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Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 716
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
[quote=RiverRider][quote=M16]
It has carbon inside it, and I can set head space for my chamber.


How do you do that if the chamber it was fired in is shorter than yours?

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#6874274 - 08/30/17 08:43 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: RiverRider]
M16 Offline
Tracker

Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 716
Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: M16
So do ammunition companies inject carbon into the necks of their ammo when they load it. No they don't. I fail to see the difference between
new brass and ss cleaned brass. And how does one measure neck tension. Who makes a neck tension measurement gauge?



There is no way to actually measure neck tension.

You can measure the inside diameter of the neck, as prepped for seating, and find the difference between the ID and your bullet's diameter. This is often referred to as "neck tension," but it really is NOT neck tension...it's the just the difference between two linear measurements. It may or may not be useful, but realistically all you have is a linear difference. That does not take into account the current temper of the case neck (as in needing annealng or not, or somewhere in between), the thickness of the neck material, or the absence or presence of anything that might influence friction---such as the carbon deposits Chad brought up.

There IS a tool that will actually help you measure the force required to seat a bullet. I think it's made by Bald Eagle, but don't quote me. This might be the best most scientific way to try to quantify neck tension (too difficult to account for friction), but it still is not a bona fide tension measurement. It might just have to do, though.


That's my point. We hear all about neck tension but nobody has a way to measure it. So how do they know? They don't.

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#6874281 - 08/30/17 08:55 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: M16]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 21795
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: M16
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
[quote=RiverRider][quote=M16]
It has carbon inside it, and I can set head space for my chamber.


How do you do that if the chamber it was fired in is shorter than yours?


I Can't if the chamber was shorter than mine. I'm still in better shape than virgin brass, which I guarantee has a shorter head space than my chamber. But my barrel was chambered with a "match reamer" that I purchased. Odds are greatly in my favor that I can head space it to my chamber.
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#6874284 - 08/30/17 08:57 PM Re: change of bullet tension [Re: TackDriver]
TackDriver Online   content
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Registered: 05/02/14
Posts: 671
M16, I have done load developments with virgin brass, my mistake, and I have seen 3 shots in one hole and was doing cartwheels and resized those brass and used the same charges, next thing I was dumbfounded. They did NOT shoot the same, why? Volume of the brass plus carbon in the necks is what made it shoot different from bare brass that was never fired. So I had to redo my development with fired brass with carbon inside the necks until I found my loads. I do not clean all the carbon out of the necks, just a little swipe with a brush. Hope that clarifies things up for you. Reason I posted is that it popped up in my mind that I may have this issue and did not want to waste my efforts / time yet until I do a 10 shot sample with SS cleaned brass and see what results I get before loading up 100 rounds of my shoot lights out load that has carbon inside the necks. I have always used the vibratory tumbler which do not clean carbon off the inside of the necks, they only clean the outside. I just bought the SS tumbler last week.

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