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#6860066 - 08/17/17 07:37 PM to cull or not to cull?
tlk Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 07/25/13
Posts: 2354
For me this nails it - we have done this for years on our ranch and the results speak for themselves - total common sense



http://www.buckmanager.com/2009/08/26/deer-management-reasons-to-cull-whitetail-bucks/
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#6860126 - 08/17/17 08:34 PM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
fouzman Offline
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Registered: 08/09/10
Posts: 1584
Loc: Houston, TX
tlk, thanks for posting that! Same basic program I learned from one of the fathers of modern day deer management. A program that anyone can easily follow, and adjust as years go by and the herd takes shape. I don't like to name names, but I'm proud to say I learned more about habitat, whitetails and marksmanship from Bill Maltsberger, over 15 years of hunting together, than I could have in three lifetimes on my own.


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#6860148 - 08/17/17 08:51 PM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
SapperTitan Online   content
Taking Requests

Registered: 11/17/10
Posts: 22635
Loc: Killeen/Ft Hood, TX
I think most of that is common sense but it's good info.
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#6860153 - 08/17/17 08:54 PM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
fouzman Offline
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Registered: 08/09/10
Posts: 1584
Loc: Houston, TX
That's the thing, ST. Very few will apply that level of common sense over the long term. Takes time and patience.

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#6860181 - 08/17/17 09:18 PM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: fouzman]
SapperTitan Online   content
Taking Requests

Registered: 11/17/10
Posts: 22635
Loc: Killeen/Ft Hood, TX
Originally Posted By: fouzman
That's the thing, ST. Very few will apply that level of common sense over the long term. Takes time and patience.
and cooperation from other lease members, land owners, so on so fourth.
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#6860202 - 08/17/17 09:32 PM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
rifleman Offline
Sparkly Pants

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 44268
Loc: Kingwood
Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.

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#6860268 - 08/17/17 11:23 PM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
el_cazador713 Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 03/03/14
Posts: 740
Loc: Texas
Great post and read!

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#6860361 - 08/18/17 07:14 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: fouzman]
tlk Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 07/25/13
Posts: 2354
Originally Posted By: fouzman
tlk, thanks for posting that! Same basic program I learned from one of the fathers of modern day deer management. A program that anyone can easily follow, and adjust as years go by and the herd takes shape. I don't like to name names, but I'm proud to say I learned more about habitat, whitetails and marksmanship from Bill Maltsberger, over 15 years of hunting together, than I could have in three lifetimes on my own.



If you learned from him then you learned right - produced some of the best bucks anywhere and over a long period of time
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#6860421 - 08/18/17 08:13 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
redchevy Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 26311
Loc: Texas
The best part about culling... it gives you something to shoot while you let the best of your best mature.
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#6860455 - 08/18/17 08:52 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
moosehntr Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 60
Hmmm, let me throw this long-term research from south Texas in the conversation as a counter-point to the culling conversation. https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/research-programs/deer-research-program/deer-associates

Read "Evaluation of Culling Intensity and Criteria for Antler Traits in White-tailed Deer" This is a PowerPoint so it takes a minute to load and it is a bit academic, so at times hard to follow. I've seen the presentation twice in person.

https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/march-2016-presentations
Read: "Effectiveness of DMP Manipulation on Antler Size and the Power of Supplemental Feed" . This is also a PowerPoint. Pay attention to the last sentence on the second and third slide.

I'm a wildlife biologist/consultant and a "student of deer", now I can throw "student of quail" in there after completing the Quail Masters course. It doesn't appear that based on this pretty solid data that culling is effective. There are alternatives though to managing a herd to increase the quality of antler growth.

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#6860491 - 08/18/17 09:27 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: moosehntr]
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 2391
Originally Posted By: moosehntr

I'm a wildlife biologist/consultant and a "student of deer", now I can throw "student of quail" in there after completing the Quail Masters course. It doesn't appear that based on this pretty solid data that culling is effective. There are alternatives though to managing a herd to increase the quality of antler growth.


That study keeps being trotted out almost as often as the spike study, but it really is limited in scale and duration.

Selective shooting can alter genetics given enough scale and time. The best example of that is that quality deer were "shot out" of areas, in essence culling the best out of the population producing a long-term downward trend in areas that previously had very large racked deer. The same can happen in a positive direction given large scale application at the state level and decades and decades of sustained effort.

Bill Maltsberger began heavy management of his deer in the late '60's and early '70's. Body weights and average rack sizes increased steadily over the next 40 years according to his records for the deer on his ranch.

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#6860496 - 08/18/17 09:33 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: rifleman]
therancher Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 6110
Loc: Mountain Home, Uvalde, and Big...
Originally Posted By: rifleman
Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.


Anyone who who believes you can significantly improve genetics through culling simply doesn't understand genetics.


Edited by therancher (08/18/17 09:38 AM)
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#6860497 - 08/18/17 09:35 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: therancher]
jeffbird Online   content


Registered: 03/09/09
Posts: 2391
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: rifleman
Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.


Anyone who who believes you can improve genetics through culling simply doesn't understand genetics.


Really? I know of one ranch specifically that had lots of 6 points. They shot every single one on sight. After just ten years, the 6 pointers were very rare.

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#6860503 - 08/18/17 09:41 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: jeffbird]
therancher Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 6110
Loc: Mountain Home, Uvalde, and Big...
Originally Posted By: jeffbird
Originally Posted By: therancher
Originally Posted By: rifleman
Quote:
Bucks found on a property must be judged against other bucks on the ranch. It would be unfair to compare deer from South Texas with a deer from East Texas or Alabama or Indiana for that matter.


Quote:
Culling is best prescribed when there are too many deer for the habitat, otherwise there is no need to remove anything


We produce quality through quantity and riding things out for maturity.


Anyone who who believes you can improve genetics through culling simply doesn't understand genetics.


Really? I know of one ranch specifically that had lots of 6 points. They shot every single one on sight. After just ten years, the 6 pointers were very rare.


If they didn't reduce does and bring does in they didn't significantly change genetics. Just like feeding DD protein, your data is flawed. For one or more of a myriad of reasons.


Edited by therancher (08/18/17 09:41 AM)
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#6860530 - 08/18/17 10:03 AM Re: to cull or not to cull? [Re: tlk]
redchevy Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 26311
Loc: Texas
To me culling is getting rid of what you don't want. Sure maybe by shooting that 6 pt your not getting rid of his genetic foot print, but you are getting rid of his real foot print, no need to let him occupy space, food, and does that other bucks you like could use.

Our general low fence area produced a buck I have pictures of but have not laid hands on that was told to me to be 20 inches wide and has 18 scorable points and the LF genetics produced that deer, no not every deer will be one, but the genetics are out there.

I toured a breeder a few months ago he said he and others he knew had tried for years to capture their biggest bucks on the HF property and pen them with does and said they never got a buck that was as good as their sire out of any of it. Yet how do you explain breeder bucks that routinely throw impressive offspring? I think a lot of it has to do with the intensity of your management. Like STX always said, you gotta shoot them all but the ones you like. From his pictures I cant help but believe that culling can have an impact with sufficient time and harvest.
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