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Custom rifle expectations? #6824252 07/16/17 07:14 PM
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What is the expectation of MOA with a custom rifle? Is that MOA guaranteed?

Also other than the smoothness of the bolt, what other improvement over factory rifle that has been customized?

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6824271 07/16/17 07:48 PM
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I would expect .5 MOA and yes most do guarantee.
Normally better barrel,better trigger,better stock that is properly bedded which is hit or miss with factory.
Along with choices of barrel length ,barrel weight, fluting style and finish options...
Thus the name Custom!


"Anyone taking up handloading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car,goes to a cocktail party,eats in a restaurant,or gets married."

Jack O'Connor 1963
Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: DStroud] #6824292 07/16/17 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: DStroud
I would expect .5 MOA and yes most do guarantee.
Normally better barrel,better trigger,better stock that is properly bedded which is hit or miss with factory.
Along with choices of barrel length ,barrel weight, fluting style and finish options...
Thus the name Custom!


Yup! up

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6824325 07/16/17 08:31 PM
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Being able to shoot is the biggest factor. I would want to know my custom gun could do .5" if not better with the right shooter

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: DStroud] #6824468 07/16/17 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: DStroud
I would expect .5 MOA and yes most do guarantee.
Normally better barrel,better trigger,better stock that is properly bedded which is hit or miss with factory.
Along with choices of barrel length ,barrel weight, fluting style and finish options...
Thus the name Custom!


Is that a five shot MOA or three shot MOA?

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6824484 07/16/17 11:29 PM
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It also would depend on what the rifle was built for.
A 458 with iron sights the shooter will not hold 0.5 moa but will be more than good for its intended purpose.
3 shots
5 shots
The first shot is the one that matters.

M

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6824494 07/16/17 11:36 PM
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I would expect a "custom" rifle to be better than any stock rifle I've had. Looks, trigger, smoother action, and most of all, group sizes.

That's actually a pretty tall order, as I have owned some pretty good out of the box rifles.

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6824515 07/16/17 11:56 PM
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Factory rifles that guarantee 5 shots into an inch are not uncommon these days. I would hope and expect the custom to shoot better most of the time, especially the ones charging $5k plus for a 1/2" guarantee.

I like the overall feel of a custom. I get to pick the McMillan stock of my choosing in my length of pull. I have all triggers set at the same pull weight. I've also grown to like a 23" barrel. Aftermarket bottom metal is allot nicer than factory as well. Fit and finish of a custom is well above that in a factory rifle. It's kind of like buying a spec house vs building your own. I think Cooper, Nosler, MRC, and Law offer a really nice in between option. I would probably lean towards one of those if I was going to do it again.

Last edited by TxHunter80; 07/17/17 12:04 AM.
Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6824623 07/17/17 02:15 AM
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Best part is a premium barrel. Keeps on shooting 1/2 MOA for a lot of rounds, without cleaning.

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6824837 07/17/17 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Deerhunter61
Originally Posted By: DStroud
I would expect .5 MOA and yes most do guarantee.
Normally better barrel,better trigger,better stock that is properly bedded which is hit or miss with factory.
Along with choices of barrel length ,barrel weight, fluting style and finish options...
Thus the name Custom!


Is that a five shot MOA or three shot MOA?


That depends on the barrel contour you pick.

Thin means light, means heats up fast, probably won't hold together for more than 3.

Heavier barrel holds up for more shots.


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Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: Deerhunter61] #6824877 07/17/17 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Deerhunter61
Originally Posted By: DStroud
I would expect .5 MOA and yes most do guarantee.
Normally better barrel,better trigger,better stock that is properly bedded which is hit or miss with factory.
Along with choices of barrel length ,barrel weight, fluting style and finish options...
Thus the name Custom!


Is that a five shot MOA or three shot MOA?


And many makers specify what ammo must be used to get that .5 MOA.

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6825150 07/17/17 06:12 PM
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B.S.

If you buy a TRUE , 100% custom, "heavy rifle" $5,000-$6,000. It Better shoot .25 MOA or save $4,000 and get a stock rifle which will shoot .50 .75 all day Like the new Tikka AR/Chassis rifle.

$4,000 extra aint worth it just to shoot steel. unless you are going to compete in Serious Long Range comps, re; PRS, F-Class Open, LR Benchrest. You don't need .25 moa

I've about come to the decision a true "custom" is really not worth the $$ or frustratingly long, stupid, wait times.

Hell, if I ordered a custom today, I would die of old age waiting on a stock to fit ME.

I've been studying ALL these custom and semi customs available "off the shelf" Plus just plain "factory" guns lately. I have or have owned a half dozen or so TRUE customs. Yes, the "quality" fit and finish is MUCH better and you will love it.

BUT



You could save the $3,000 and buy a Nightforce ATACR, Swaro-XI, which will make your rig complete

Last edited by Buzzsaw; 07/17/17 06:14 PM.

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Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: Buzzsaw] #6825167 07/17/17 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw
B.S.

If you buy a TRUE , 100% custom, "heavy rifle" $5,000-$6,000. It Better shoot .25 MOA or save $4,000 and get a stock rifle which will shoot .50 .75 all day Like the new Tikka AR/Chassis rifle.

$4,000 extra aint worth it just to shoot steel. unless you are going to compete in Serious Long Range comps, re; PRS, F-Class Open, LR Benchrest. You don't need .25 moa

I've about come to the decision a true "custom" is really not worth the $$ or frustratingly long, stupid, wait times.

Hell, if I ordered a custom today, I would die of old age waiting on a stock to fit ME.

I've been studying ALL these custom and semi customs available "off the shelf" Plus just plain "factory" guns lately. I have or have owned a half dozen or so TRUE customs. Yes, the "quality" fit and finish is MUCH better and you will love it.

BUT



You could save the $3,000 and buy a Nightforce ATACR, Swaro-XI, which will make your rig complete
I tend to agree with all of this. I'd love to have one, but I can't possibly understand how I could justify that level of cost when any number of $700-$1,000 factory rifles will shoot .5MOA with the right handloads.

To each their own though. Just like a $75k bass boat - folks spend their $ how they want to.

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: patriot07] #6825228 07/17/17 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: patriot07
Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw
B.S.

If you buy a TRUE , 100% custom, "heavy rifle" $5,000-$6,000. It Better shoot .25 MOA or save $4,000 and get a stock rifle which will shoot .50 .75 all day Like the new Tikka AR/Chassis rifle.

$4,000 extra aint worth it just to shoot steel. unless you are going to compete in Serious Long Range comps, re; PRS, F-Class Open, LR Benchrest. You don't need .25 moa

I've about come to the decision a true "custom" is really not worth the $$ or frustratingly long, stupid, wait times.

Hell, if I ordered a custom today, I would die of old age waiting on a stock to fit ME.

I've been studying ALL these custom and semi customs available "off the shelf" Plus just plain "factory" guns lately. I have or have owned a half dozen or so TRUE customs. Yes, the "quality" fit and finish is MUCH better and you will love it.

BUT



You could save the $3,000 and buy a Nightforce ATACR, Swaro-XI, which will make your rig complete
I tend to agree with all of this. I'd love to have one, but I can't possibly understand how I could justify that level of cost when any number of $700-$1,000 factory rifles will shoot .5MOA with the right handloads.

To each their own though. Just like a $75k bass boat - folks spend their $ how they want to.


A lot like watches some are happy with their G Shock and others prefer a Rolex. Handmade and finer materials cost money but don't necessarily do the job any better. Applies to lots of things


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Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: Buzzsaw] #6825282 07/17/17 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw
B.S.

If you buy a TRUE , 100% custom, "heavy rifle" $5,000-$6,000. It Better shoot .25 MOA or save $4,000 and get a stock rifle which will shoot .50 .75 all day Like the new Tikka AR/Chassis rifle.

$4,000 extra aint worth it just to shoot steel. unless you are going to compete in Serious Long Range comps, re; PRS, F-Class Open, LR Benchrest. You don't need .25 moa

I've about come to the decision a true "custom" is really not worth the $$ or frustratingly long, stupid, wait times.

Hell, if I ordered a custom today, I would die of old age waiting on a stock to fit ME.

I've been studying ALL these custom and semi customs available "off the shelf" Plus just plain "factory" guns lately. I have or have owned a half dozen or so TRUE customs. Yes, the "quality" fit and finish is MUCH better and you will love it.

BUT



You could save the $3,000 and buy a Nightforce ATACR, Swaro-XI, which will make your rig complete


I concur


The secret to a long life is to try not to shorten it.
Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: J.G.] #6825353 07/17/17 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: Deerhunter61
Originally Posted By: DStroud
I would expect .5 MOA and yes most do guarantee.
Normally better barrel,better trigger,better stock that is properly bedded which is hit or miss with factory.
Along with choices of barrel length ,barrel weight, fluting style and finish options...
Thus the name Custom!


Is that a five shot MOA or three shot MOA?


That depends on the barrel contour you pick.

Thin means light, means heats up fast, probably won't hold together for more than 3.

Heavier barrel holds up for more shots.


I assume that skinny barrel would cool faster too though, correct?

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: garyrapp55] #6825376 07/17/17 09:18 PM
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Yes they do.

Larger caliber aids in cooling as well.


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Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6825415 07/17/17 09:50 PM
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In a $6000 custom

I expect quality chassis, quality barrel, superb fit, meticulous finish
And 1 MOA guarantee

Like a $30,000 watch, it won't tell time any more accurate
But does show that the owner appreciate fine craftsmanship and quality materials

Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: cabosandinh] #6825490 07/17/17 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: cabosandinh
In a $6000 custom

I expect quality chassis, quality barrel, superb fit, meticulous finish
And 1 MOA guarantee

Like a $30,000 watch, it won't tell time any more accurate
But does show that the owner appreciate fine craftsmanship and quality materials


word up


u and bphillips got it


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Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6825539 07/17/17 11:54 PM
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Thanks for the replies.

Last edited by scdogman; 07/18/17 12:24 AM.
Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: Buzzsaw] #6826110 07/18/17 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw
B.S.

If you buy a TRUE , 100% custom, "heavy rifle" $5,000-$6,000. It Better shoot .25 MOA or save $4,000 and get a stock rifle which will shoot .50 .75 all day Like the new Tikka AR/Chassis rifle.

$4,000 extra aint worth it just to shoot steel. unless you are going to compete in Serious Long Range comps, re; PRS, F-Class Open, LR Benchrest. You don't need .25 moa

I've about come to the decision a true "custom" is really not worth the $$ or frustratingly long, stupid, wait times.

Hell, if I ordered a custom today, I would die of old age waiting on a stock to fit ME.

I've been studying ALL these custom and semi customs available "off the shelf" Plus just plain "factory" guns lately. I have or have owned a half dozen or so TRUE customs. Yes, the "quality" fit and finish is MUCH better and you will love it.

BUT



You could save the $3,000 and buy a Nightforce ATACR, Swaro-XI, which will make your rig complete


You have a real issue with the "gotta have it now" mentality. Guns are not something you need to be dabbling in if you have to have something right now. You have to plan and not be in a hurry or it will never be worth it to you.

You are like me and have guns to shoot. Odds are you aren't going to die tomorrow or this year...build the gun you want and be patient...you've wasted 6 months bitching about not getting parts when you should've ordered them back then and you would almost have them. Gawd I don't want to get old and gumpy roflmao

Oh and one last thing...there isn't very many gunsmiths that will guarantee a 250 unless they know they shooter...to many variables and none of them want to spend a bunch of their time proving the rifle's and their loading capabilities far exceed the shooter. Unless they are working with someone they know already realizes that wink


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Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6826163 07/18/17 03:50 PM
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I shoot and test a lot of factory, semi custom, and full custom rifles. There are some good factory rifles on the market that can shoot sub moa when you feed it a good hand load. Some of the main issues I see with factory rifles is no bedding of the action in a low-end factory stock. Often times the factory stock has lots of movement where the forend bends when a bipod is used, causing shots to go random. The barrel not free floating in the stock also has some issues.

The semi custom rifles will help improve over a standard factory rifle with a good barrel and good smith work, if it's done right. Often times these semi custom rifles fix the bedding and free float issues found on factory guns. And with an upgraded barrel, they have the potential to shoot better. The Tikka builds I have done are some of the best shooting semi-custom builds I have seen, easily 1/2 moa or better. For the money (about $1300-$1400), these are some of the best build options I have seen.

Now, the full customs are great. Most of the time these are put together right with high end components. Full customs generally shoot most factory ammo good. But like I tell customers, if it shoots good now, I'll make it shoot better with a tuned load to the rifle. It's like fine tuning a race car to the track. That's when you get the full potential of the rifle.

As you move up the ladder from a factory rifle to a full custom, generally, you do get better quality (tighter groups) as you move up. If you put up a standard factory rifle to a full custom, the edge should easily go to the full custom with good ammo and a good shooter. And I add in the shooter part, because we all know someone that has high end gear that simply can not shoot to the potential of the rifle and ammo. That does play a big part in there.

I have had major issues with accuracy "guarantees" lately. Some are a freakin' joke, and I've voiced my opinion on some of them. Most good factory rifles with a quality scope and quality rings/bases can shoot moa or better. I have seen some factory rifles that had major issues and simply would not shoot well. I have seen factory rifles get "improvements" done to it, and it made the accuracy/consistency even worse. I have had to apply some deeper thought to some rifles when a customer brings me, what I call a "problem rifle", to work on. They tell me no matter what they shoot it won't shoot well. I tell them I'm not a magic man. If you don't have a good foundation to start from, there will not be a good results in the long term. I have turned away some guns that I knew would be problem guns, unless a lot of work was done to them.

I honestly like seeing gun smiths who do not have an accuracy guarantee. Several I know are like this. And the smith says it depends on who's shooting it and what ammo you are running. I agree.


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Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6826182 07/18/17 04:04 PM
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To followup on Chad's comment, there are four major components to an accurate shot:

1. rifle,

2. ammo,

3. scope including excellent rings and base correctly mounted with a torque wrench, not farmer finger tight,

4. the shooter.

All four play a major role and all have to be in good working order.

There is inordinate attention spent discussing and fretting over the rifle, too little on the scope, and WAY too little on the shooter.

By far the biggest problem for most setups is the shooter.

The saying comes from music, but applies equally to shooting, amateurs practice until they can do it right, pros practice until they cannot do it wrong.

There is a world of difference in those two standards.

Most folks want to buy their way to a great shot.

There are no short cuts, the targets show objective truth.







Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6826188 07/18/17 04:10 PM
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I just recently started a semi custom after years of telling myself I would never spend that much money on a rifle. Granted, I'm still not to the price point some have talked about, but I've got several rifles that cost 1/3 as much that are legitimate 1/2 MOA rifles day in and day out. For me, I wanted a tool built the way I wanted it that serves a specific purpose. The configuration I chose is not available in a factory rifle. I haven't received the rifle yet, so ask me in a few months if the time and money were truly worth it. I think it will be.

Last edited by cblackall; 07/18/17 04:14 PM.
Re: Custom rifle expectations? [Re: scdogman] #6826218 07/18/17 04:41 PM
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Have to agree with Buzz, manufacturing methods and processes are so much better today that factory rifles can and do shoot sub MOA, even with factory ammo. I think I will have a hard time spending more than a semi custom rifle. To me, I'd spend the extra $3-$4k on quality glass, and practice (ammo).

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