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Large velocity ES causes #6814993 07/07/17 02:21 PM
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I've done a bunch of load testing with multiple powders for my Tikka Varmint 223, and I can't figure out why the ES is so high on everything. 4-shot group size has varied from .20" with some loads to 1.5"-2" with others. So I've found some loads that shoot really accurately and some that don't. But the ES is all over the map. ES with the most inaccurate loads is around 50-80 fps. ES with the loads that shoot ok varies from 30 fps to 120 fps. ES with the most accurate loads is between 30-50 fps.

All loads were run on single stage and powder measured for each round. ES was calculated based on anywhere from 4 shots to 10 shots (depending on how many test shots I ran with each load). So I guess the basic questions are:

- what type of ES should I be expecting?
- are some powders more consistent than others?

Using once-fired brass, same brand, same length, same primers, and using a CED millennium chrono. Heard people talking about getting ES in single digits or certainly under 20 fps, and I'm not even close to that.

Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815004 07/07/17 02:30 PM
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What powder scale are you using?

And, anymore, I will not fully trust an optical chronograph. I realize that model you have is a higher end one, but I trust a Magnetospeed or a Labradar both more than any optical chronograph.

I went through lots of trouble two weeks ago tweaking my 7mm-08 load. I loaded on a beam scale, found the best shooting charge at 100, then tested it again at 200 yards. It shot very tight, and at the same time Chad' s Labradar reported an ES of 10 fps. That is a personal best for me, especially with an old case geometry design of the 7mm-08.

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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815008 07/07/17 02:31 PM
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Never played with a chrono but may get better on second firing.

I believe neck tension is going to come up in this as well.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815009 07/07/17 02:32 PM
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I upgraded from a Shooting Chrony to a Oehler 35P because I found out it was close when it comes to average velocity but not so good on shot-to-shot precision. Stats were pretty meaningless with the Chrony.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: redchevy] #6815015 07/07/17 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Never played with a chrono but may get better on second firing.

I believe neck tension is going to come up in this as well.


Thanks for the reminder. I failed to mention the reason I was tweaking powder charge again is that I changed bushings in my FL die to provide .002" more neck tension.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815040 07/07/17 02:54 PM
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Brad, there are multiple items that can cause a high ES. I'll list a few I think are in order of importance from high to low.

#1-Consistent powder charge, accurate to at least .1 grains or less (I load to .02 grains)
#2-Consistent case prep- all brass same brand, sized the same with consistent neck tension from piece to piece
Consistent seating depth
Correct load tuned to the rifle (sweet spot for the rifle)
The right powder burn rate for the cartridge and bullet you are shooting (see note below)

If you are still using the new CFE 223 powder for your 223, consider this. That is a CFE powder, meaning a "copper fouling eraser" ingredient in the powder to reduce the amount of copper fouling in the barrel when shooting. How do they do this? They have to add in some kind of agent to make the powder have less copper fouling. This ingredient has to make the barrel more slick or more frictionless in some way. It also has to coat the inside of the barrel in some form to prevent copper build up. What does this tell me? This should act like a moly or Boron Nitride (BN) bullet coating. Instead of the coating being applied on the bullet, it's inside the powder as you shoot it. The more you shoot, the more slick it gets, changing up the friction placed on the bullet, effecting your ES. On a clean barrel, you may get a lower ES and on a heavily fouled barrel you may get a higher ES.

I know from experience that moly and BN coated bullets will easily double your ES numbers. It has to do with the bullet not having a consistent grip in the barrel, when compared to a naked uncoated bullet. I knew many shooters that could not stay consistent at 1000 yards and would miss high and low, simply because they were running BN coated bullets and their ES numbers were 40-50+ fps, often more (mainly 243 Win with 115 coated DTAC bullet). When you factor a high ES like that, you will see vertical spread (missing high and low) at long range.

Is this causing your high ES? Not sure, but it would be my educated guess. But if you are still planning on only shooting out to 400 and 500 yards with your 223, then it won't matter much with the higher ES, since you won't really begin to see much vertical at that distance.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815063 07/07/17 03:17 PM
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Mismatched case capacity will also have notable effect on ES---just like inconsistent charge weights.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815108 07/07/17 03:56 PM
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so if said Tikka will shoot .20, that's smaller than a dime sized group @ 100yards, if my math is correct:

1. why jack with any other loads?
2. What difference will a high ES or SD make? bad groups at 600yrds?

I think sometimes we get too anal when we are getting very good accuracy .20 from a factory gun and barrel. Or is the 2.0" group more the norm for this rifle??

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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815192 07/07/17 05:23 PM
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Patriot, you are probably doing better than most factory ammo. Some I have tested has been well over 100. To get the ES way down powder charge needs to be precise. Usually on a beam, or very expensive electronic scale, where you can recognize if you are one kernel high or low. Brass prep needs to be meticulous. Matched cases at minimum weigh sorted, to get internal capacity as consistent as possible. Flash holes often uniformed. Trim exact. Same number of cycles on each piece. Brass has often been annealed for greater consistency and more predictable neck tension. Loads are most often near maximum pressure for a consistent and complete burn. Various primers may be experimented with to tighten things up. Some weigh sort Bullets for greater consistency and the OAL may be measured to the ogive for a more exacting seating depth.
Repeatable consistency and precision isolating as many variables as possible so when the right combination is found it can be duplicated.
Going at it that way identifies what techniques give you the most mileage. It is also overkill for most shooting.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815198 07/07/17 05:31 PM
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Yes to the stuff Chad said but when I find a load that will shoot little but the ES/SD number is higher than I prefer...go with that load but change primer. You'd be surprised how much difference a primer can make to those numbers.

I always start with a good primer. For example...small rifle is either going to be CC450/FM205M/CCI400/BR4 and large rifle will 95% of the time be a BR2.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815279 07/07/17 06:37 PM
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Chad,

Tin is the most commonly added ingredient for decoppering, although bismuth is another that is used somewhat.

Lead was also used in the past.

The concept has been around for a very long time, especially for use in military ammo.

Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: ChadTRG42] #6815366 07/07/17 08:16 PM
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Ok, so it sounds like 30-50 fps may not be totally unexpected. Thank you all for the responses. I had considered the chrono maybe not being 100% reliable because it seems like a lot of the speeds are close (20-30 fps apart) and then I'll get one or two random outliers that are 40-100 fps faster or slower than the rest.

Regarding neck tension, I am sticking with one brand of brass at a time and using the same die set the same way, although I have noticed minor differences in how difficult the bullet can be to seat.

Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
What powder scale are you using?

And, anymore, I will not fully trust an optical chronograph. I realize that model you have is a higher end one, but I trust a Magnetospeed or a Labradar both more than any optical chronograph.

I went through lots of trouble two weeks ago tweaking my 7mm-08 load. I loaded on a beam scale, found the best shooting charge at 100, then tested it again at 200 yards. It shot very tight, and at the same time Chad' s Labradar reported an ES of 10 fps. That is a personal best for me, especially with an old case geometry design of the 7mm-08.
To answer your questions:
- I did not know that chrono was high-end. I am using it because the gun club at work rents equipment to members for free and that's what they have. Same with the thrower/scale...
- I am using an RCBS scale/thrower that looks like this (for most of my testing, I am hand-dipping powder onto the scale and not using the thrower):




Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Mismatched case capacity will also have notable effect on ES---just like inconsistent charge weights.
Should this improve with brass that has been fired all out of my gun when I load it again?

Thanks for the response Chad. Comments in red.
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Brad, there are multiple items that can cause a high ES. I'll list a few I think are in order of importance from high to low.

#1-Consistent powder charge, accurate to at least .1 grains or less (I load to .02 grains)
#2-Consistent case prep- all brass same brand, sized the same with consistent neck tension from piece to piece
Consistent seating depth
Correct load tuned to the rifle (sweet spot for the rifle)
The right powder burn rate for the cartridge and bullet you are shooting (see note below) I was keeping up with you until you started talking about burn rate for the cartridge and bullet - how do you know what is "right" and what isn't?

If you are still using the new CFE 223 powder for your 223, consider this. That is a CFE powder, meaning a "copper fouling eraser" ingredient in the powder to reduce the amount of copper fouling in the barrel when shooting. How do they do this? They have to add in some kind of agent to make the powder have less copper fouling. This ingredient has to make the barrel more slick or more frictionless in some way. It also has to coat the inside of the barrel in some form to prevent copper build up. What does this tell me? This should act like a moly or Boron Nitride (BN) bullet coating. Instead of the coating being applied on the bullet, it's inside the powder as you shoot it. The more you shoot, the more slick it gets, changing up the friction placed on the bullet, effecting your ES. On a clean barrel, you may get a lower ES and on a heavily fouled barrel you may get a higher ES.

I know from experience that moly and BN coated bullets will easily double your ES numbers. It has to do with the bullet not having a consistent grip in the barrel, when compared to a naked uncoated bullet. I knew many shooters that could not stay consistent at 1000 yards and would miss high and low, simply because they were running BN coated bullets and their ES numbers were 40-50+ fps, often more (mainly 243 Win with 115 coated DTAC bullet). When you factor a high ES like that, you will see vertical spread (missing high and low) at long range. Makes sense - had not considered this. Thank you.

Is this causing your high ES? Not sure, but it would be my educated guess. But if you are still planning on only shooting out to 400 and 500 yards with your 223, then it won't matter much with the higher ES, since you won't really begin to see much vertical at that distance. Agree 100%, this is more of a learning opportunity than anything else. Vertical delta at 500 yards is only 2"-4", so it's not a huge difference for my uses. Just trying to learn how to be better.

Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: Buzzsaw] #6815377 07/07/17 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Buzzsaw
so if said Tikka will shoot .20, that's smaller than a dime sized group @ 100yards, if my math is correct:

1. why jack with any other loads?
2. What difference will a high ES or SD make? bad groups at 600yrds?

I think sometimes we get too anal when we are getting very good accuracy .20 from a factory gun and barrel. Or is the 2.0" group more the norm for this rifle??
I have gotten a number of sub-.5" groups from this gun. Problem is with temp-sensitive CFE223 powder, I have had trouble replicating that type of performance in these warmer temps. When it was colder, I was getting awesome groups nearly every time out. I'm working on backing off the powder charge to get back to the same velocity (and hopefully pressure) that I was getting from the tight groups when it was colder, but I still haven't been able to get those same results yet. Best groups since it warmed up have been about .6"-.7", which is fine for my purposes (targets at 100 yards, steel at 300-500 yards). I'm just trying to figure out if there is anything I should be trying to do to improve the ES on those loads.

I'm not trying to make a gun that shoots .1" groups with an ES of 5 fps. I don't have the time or money to tweak to that level, and I don't have the skills to make use of it either. If I could get consistent groups at .75" and a "good" ES, that would be perfectly fine for my uses. I think my expectations for ES with single-stage loaded rounds may have been a bit ambitious. And my gun isn't shooting .75" all the time in the summer either. Just wanted to get forum input on whether there was anything easy to do to improve.

Thinking it might be worth playing around with Varget. I've heard of tons of good stuff from it in 223. Only reason I'd gone with CFE223 was because my gun liked it in the winter and my original ammo run was all on a progressive. Now that I'm single stage loading, Varget might be a better choice.

Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815396 07/07/17 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: patriot07

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Brad, there are multiple items that can cause a high ES. I'll list a few I think are in order of importance from high to low.

#1-Consistent powder charge, accurate to at least .1 grains or less (I load to .02 grains)
#2-Consistent case prep- all brass same brand, sized the same with consistent neck tension from piece to piece
Consistent seating depth
Correct load tuned to the rifle (sweet spot for the rifle)
The right powder burn rate for the cartridge and bullet you are shooting (see note below) I was keeping up with you until you started talking about burn rate for the cartridge and bullet - how do you know what is "right" and what isn't?



You want to pick a powder that allows he case to be relatively full of powder. A powder that is too fast will leave a lot of empty space in the cartridge and one that is too slow will fill the case and not achieve your intended velocity.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: redchevy] #6815456 07/07/17 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: redchevy
Originally Posted By: patriot07

Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Brad, there are multiple items that can cause a high ES. I'll list a few I think are in order of importance from high to low.

#1-Consistent powder charge, accurate to at least .1 grains or less (I load to .02 grains)
#2-Consistent case prep- all brass same brand, sized the same with consistent neck tension from piece to piece
Consistent seating depth
Correct load tuned to the rifle (sweet spot for the rifle)
The right powder burn rate for the cartridge and bullet you are shooting (see note below) I was keeping up with you until you started talking about burn rate for the cartridge and bullet - how do you know what is "right" and what isn't?



You want to pick a powder that allows he case to be relatively full of powder. A powder that is too fast will leave a lot of empty space in the cartridge and one that is too slow will fill the case and not achieve your intended velocity.
Gotcha - my winter load is 24.6 grains of CFE223 loaded at 2.282" with a 75 Hornady BTHP. It was shooting lights out anywhere from 40 degrees to 65 degrees. When I came out and it was 90 degrees, things went south. I backed off to 23.8 grains of CFE223 to get about the same velocity as the 24.6 grains was getting in the winter, but the accuracy hasn't been quite as good.

Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815467 07/07/17 09:12 PM
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Two things I'd bet my lunch money would lower ES.

1.Use a beam scale. Digital scales are not 100% reliable, unless it's a high end one. More so than that RCBS. RCBS publishes a .1 gr accuracy. I've done some serious testing lately and can tell you they are correct. + .1 gr from desired, and -.1 he from desired, so .2 gr total. Now this is not detrimental for a big case with lots of powder, for instance my 7 Rem Mag holding 71.2 gr total. But it will show up in a small case, such as a .223, think percentage of total case load.

2. H-Varget. It's a great temperature stable powder. It just does not meter well. Anyone chasing the ultimate precision ammo, and low ES, does not care about metering. If something meters well, that's just a bonus.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815490 07/07/17 09:29 PM
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Pick a powder with better temperature stability that is known for consistency. Varget, H 4895, & IMR 8208 XBR would all be worth a try. There are a few more for 223. When you find a good accuracy node in the summer pick a charge weight toward the top of the node but not on the edge. If you lose a little velocity when it cools off you will remain in the node and your load will hold up summer to winter


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815548 07/07/17 10:00 PM
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both the above

24.0 Varget, 69 or 77gr SMK, tipped or not.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815553 07/07/17 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
The right powder burn rate for the cartridge and bullet you are shooting (see note below) I was keeping up with you until you started talking about burn rate for the cartridge and bullet - how do you know what is "right" and what isn't?


Basically what redchevy said. You want to select the correct burn rate of powder for the cartridge and bullet weight you are shooting. You wouldn't want to load a 223 with H4350 or H4831 powder. It's way too slow of a burn rate, the round would be really slow, the actual % of powder burned would be low, and the efficiency of the round would not be good. Because of these factors, your ES would be high if you ran a powder like this in a 223. Now your using CFE 223, which is a slow burning powder for the 223. It will shoot best standing on the throttle at a max load.

Also, another thing to think about that many shooter do and don't think about. CFE 223 is a ball powder, which means it WILL be temp sensitive from hot and cold temps, as you probably already know. If you are shooting and letting rounds "cook" in the chamber before shooting them, you can easily be raising the powder temp. This will certainly increase the pressure, resulting in faster speeds. If ammo is left in the sun or hot car vs. in the shade, it will react differently.

https://www.hodgdon.com//wp-content/uploads/2017/01/burnratecolor.pdf

The main thing I HIGHLY recommend is reading all you can about reloading, powders, and all the factors that go into reloading, and what effects certain items have on your ammo. There are certain powders I won't use for various reasons. CFE 223 would be one of those. There's about 100 other powders I'd use for the 223 before this one. And there's plenty of good powder choices for the 223; IMR 8208, H4895, Varget, and plenty others for loading single stage.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815572 07/07/17 10:11 PM
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I don't think single digit or low teens is grasping to much for a 223. In my experience it is much easier to get low ES/SD in a smaller case capacity. For example...I can get my 6brx/6dasher's below 5 on SD and below 7 on ES...my 284 Win the lowest I've been able to accomplish at this time is 15 ES and 5 SD.

I don't sort cases to get the numbers this low. In my testing experience, that's a waste of time.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6815605 07/07/17 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: patriot07


Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Mismatched case capacity will also have notable effect on ES---just like inconsistent charge weights.


Should this improve with brass that has been fired all out of my gun when I load it again?



I doubt it.

What you CAN do is buy the better brass available. Nosler brass is weight sorted, and Norma and Lapua have a reputation for making top notch stuff. Weight sorting of common R-P, Winchester, LC, PMC, and the like ought to go a long way toward getting more consistent capacity. I don't believe weight sorting is the perfect solution---actually measuring volume is the only way TO KNOW that you're getting consistent capacity, but that's waaaay too much of a PITA. Weighing should be pretty darned close as long as you're not mixing headstamps.

If you're not annealing case necks, maybe you should give it some consideration. I've had a few different lots of .223 brass in my time, and before I started annealing I would often notice wide variation in the feel of seating bullets. There's another thing I have not measured so that I *KNOW*, but I'm pretty darned confident that annealing contributes to consistent neck tension based on seat-of-the-pants "feel."

A little hint on powders for .223 Remington. Chad once brought up AR-Comp as being a very good powder in .223, and I tried it and like it. It seems to give some very consistent velocities and accuracy. It's temp tolerant too, supposedly, but I've never actually analyzed my data to see how much this is so. One thing I do NOT like about it is that it is an extruded powder and won't flow through a measure worth a damn. To me that matters because I load a lot of .223 for volume shooting and just don't want to spend the time weighing every charge. OTOH, I do use AR-Comp for hog loads (60-grain Partitions) in my AR15 because I don't shoot them 100 at a time. Single-digit SDs are the norm for this load.

IMO, weighing charges to extreme precision is a waste of time if you're not going to invest time in case prep and case capacity matching.


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: RiverRider] #6815729 07/08/17 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Originally Posted By: patriot07


Originally Posted By: RiverRider
Mismatched case capacity will also have notable effect on ES---just like inconsistent charge weights.


Should this improve with brass that has been fired all out of my gun when I load it again?



I doubt it.

What you CAN do is buy the better brass available. Nosler brass is weight sorted, and Norma and Lapua have a reputation for making top notch stuff. Weight sorting of common R-P, Winchester, LC, PMC, and the like ought to go a long way toward getting more consistent capacity. I don't believe weight sorting is the perfect solution---actually measuring volume is the only way TO KNOW that you're getting consistent capacity, but that's waaaay too much of a PITA. Weighing should be pretty darned close as long as you're not mixing headstamps.

If you're not annealing case necks, maybe you should give it some consideration. I've had a few different lots of .223 brass in my time, and before I started annealing I would often notice wide variation in the feel of seating bullets. There's another thing I have not measured so that I *KNOW*, but I'm pretty darned confident that annealing contributes to consistent neck tension based on seat-of-the-pants "feel."

A little hint on powders for .223 Remington. Chad once brought up AR-Comp as being a very good powder in .223, and I tried it and like it. It seems to give some very consistent velocities and accuracy. It's temp tolerant too, supposedly, but I've never actually analyzed my data to see how much this is so. One thing I do NOT like about it is that it is an extruded powder and won't flow through a measure worth a damn. To me that matters because I load a lot of .223 for volume shooting and just don't want to spend the time weighing every charge. OTOH, I do use AR-Comp for hog loads (60-grain Partitions) in my AR15 because I don't shoot them 100 at a time. Single-digit SDs are the norm for this load.

IMO, weighing charges to extreme precision is a waste of time if you're not going to invest time in case prep and case capacity matching.



agree on the AR Comp, nice powder in the .223


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Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: ChadTRG42] #6815933 07/08/17 03:34 AM
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I don't doubt that CFE223 might be causing the ES. But it was shooting so good in the winter time, I decided that I could figure out a way to make it work in the summer. I knew when I went with it that it was temp-sensitive, but the ammo was being done on a progressive at the time and my choices became limited.

Here were my groups from load testing. All dots are 1" and all groups are 4 shots. I made a scope adjustment after the top row was done to move left either .1 or .2 mils (can't remember which). The left-most shot on the top 24.4 target was a pull, and the the full lower 23.8 target and the upper-most shot on the lower 24.1 target were barrel heat issues (got through 5 shots before I figured it out...bang). Everything else was between .2"-.6".

I'll try Varget and AR Comp to see if I can run up a good summertime load. And I'll run the powder on my RCBS beam scale. Thanks everyone for the help!


Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6816103 07/08/17 02:00 PM
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Buzzsaw Offline
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doubt your rifle will improve much, those are pretty good for a straight factory set up, IMO. unless you just like shooting the crap out of your gun, just too much human error or heat issues here. Chad has plenty o new barrels for you though. I guess it might take a couple lifetimes to shoot out a .223 bolt guns barrel.

I say, you end this testing and buy a new rifle, new caliber and start over, keep us entertained. I like your range reports, they are true and honest.


SPACE FOR RENT


Re: Large velocity ES causes [Re: patriot07] #6816213 07/08/17 03:29 PM
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That load testing target was from winter. I know I'm not going to improve on that. I was thrilled with those results. I'm just trying to come close to replicating it in the summer, and reduce my ES in the process if that's possible. I ended up running 24.6 grains for my bulk load and it shoots great in winter. I've run 24.4, 24.2, 24.0, 23.8, and 23.6 so far this summer. I think 23.7 grains in 80-100 degrees will essentially replicate the speed of my 24.6 load in 40-70 degrees. But so far, none of the lighter loads have been as accurate during the summer as my 24.6 was in the winter. My summer groups have mostly been .75"-1.25". The bad loads haven't been quite as bad and the good loads haven't been near as good. I loaded some 23.7 this morning with the balance beam.
I'll also try 24.0 grains of Varget and see what that does.

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