However, at close range they perform much like a slug....can be very devastating.....

A full choke shotgun at 30 foot is a nightmare. When I was a kid, we shot down mesquite trees.

The military did extensive testing back in the 70's on the leathality of various shotgun loads. The consensus was that from 0-20ft, it didn't matter if you were hit with a 1.25oz birdshot or 1.25 oz of buckshot you would be just as dead. The entry wound look like a rat hole. Buckshot often passes clear through a body while birdshot slows quickly after initial contact and spreads as it slows.
I've attended an autopsy of a person shot twice at close range in the upper torso by a shotgun with #4 birdshot. The entry holes were the same as if he was hit with a rifled slug but there were no exit wounds. The pellets spread to the heart, lungs, liver,spleen,kidney, stomach and intestines. A real surgeons nightmare.

Not as bad as you'd think..... Wasn't the first time the bull had gotten after someone. Landowner knew he had a problem and didn't address it so he didn't pay even close to what it cost to replace.

Bird shot at close range is devastating,

MO

Another topic that starts out with a broad statement which leads to responses all over the place. Big difference between 5 yards and 30 yards when talking specifically about birdshot. It would not be my preferred load for bear defense.

The specific reference was to numerous threads where nothing less than 000 buck or slugs was recommended for home defense. My objection to 000 and especially slugs is the risk of over-penetration through the interior walls of most homes and apartments. This story is a simple illustration that the most ordinary birdshot load is exceedingly lethal at across-the-room distances.

Not that this story will change anyone's mind about anything. People believe what they want.

Home defense and bear defense are almost inverse.
Generally, a home intruder is engaged at close range and is trying like hell to put some distance between you and him upon engagement. Also often "boxed in" by virtue of being indoors. Also not as tough to stop as a bear. Finally, the wall penetration/safely of others factor you discussed. A lot of folks load bird/squirrel shot for these reasons.
Generally, a bear encounter is likely to start at some distance and involve a tough-as-hell enraged wild apex predator closing the distance as quickly as it can. Purpose: to rip you apart. A little more than birdshot would be prudent.

Not really, context is hunting ptarmigan and/or grouse. Impressive part isn't the birdshot killing the bear it's the quick thinking and steadfast of a youth.

That was the context of the story. The actions of the youth were certainly admirable, but not the point of the OP. Clearly, the context of the post was in support of birdshot as a good choice for bear defense.

Certainly, anyone with a modicum of experience knows that at very close range birdshot can be very lethal. At distance, not nearly so much.

That's a fact that shouldn't be in dispute!

At what distance do you go to jail and what distance is it self defense ?

Do you have a point or just want to argue?

Do you recommend birdshot in bear country for bear defense?

If so, we can discuss it. If not, we have nothing to discuss.

You are correct. While hunting he should of been carrying a secondary more appropriate weapon for self defense. Obviously birdshot in a shotgun is a bad choice, if you "don't" want to actually kill a bear...in a self defense situation.

The whole agruement is kind dumb, in this context you are going to use what ever you are hunting with. Using a rifle, you would use it, hunting with a shot gun you would use it... If you are bowhunting that's a little different but last grizz in CO was killed with an arrow in hand via a self defense situation. I also would recommend dropping a 243 to grab a 10mm pistol.

I don't see me carrying a special bear weapon if I was hunting with a shot gun, nor would I hunt upland with t or buck shot. I would hunt grouse all day long with birdshot in grizz country and never think twice about it.

But then again I archery hunted last year in grizz country and my pistol was a supped up 9mm. God forbid I didn't carry a 10mm or 454 casull.


And that distance question was a legitimate, and I'm curious to see your thoughts on it.

Responding to just the title, if they could vote millions of dead birds and other smaller critters would disagree.

As for the young man that used it in self defense on a bear, congrats way to keep cool and get the job done. Use what you have, being that the shotgun was loaded with bird shot I am sure bear wasn't the intended target but...

There is a guide in Alaska that writes for some gun rags or at least did in the past that carries a 357 Mag as does his daughter that also guides for the last resort backup in bear country, most would not consider this round but with heavy cast bullets it has the penetration ability and like he says the only to stop a mad bear is a CNS shot and he would rather have something he can reach the CHS with and get off multiple aimed shots as quickly as possible and cannot do that with a hand cannon,

First load #6 second #4 well if you make it to the last I feel sorry

Man, you can put some stuff down. I'm not arguing about any of that. You act like people are stupid sometimes. Most of the time, most people don't carry a dedicated bear defense gun. But there are places where it is commonly done - AK coast being the main one on earth. Some carry pistols, some carry spray, some carry short levers (usually Marlin Guide guns), and some carry shotguns. The shotguns are not loaded with birdshot.

1)There are many factors involved in a self-defense investigation involving a bear attack.
2)There is no set "distance" where it goes from not SD to SD.
3)The main question is "Was the bear attacking?" If yes, the shooter will be fine. If no, not so much.

Questioning rational is not calling people stupid. Saying birdshot shot is inadequate for self defense against a bear is an interesting perspective, being that it works apparently pretty effectively. Our old CO neighbor rolled a big blk with bird shot after it broke his sliding glass door. Bear didn't make it 6 yards. He almost got into a bind. He got hammered on his self defense claim, but ultimately prevailed.

The whole self defense thing is interesting since not a whole lot of studies just old school thoughts that seemed to get proven differently

I don't know what's so interesting about my perspective. It's how it's done by folks that do it. Have you ever hunted in grizzly country? Ever carried or had a guide carry a dedicated bear defense shotgun? I have.

Tell you what: If you ever carry a dedicated bear defense shotgun, load your birdshot. I don't care. Pepper his a** to make him madder as he charges or just wait until he is 5-10 feet away to shoot. Shoot fast but shoot well - because it'll probably be the only effective shot you'll get. Again, I don't care. Like on most subjects, you obviously know more than anyone else about it.

If I ever carry one again, I will load buckshot or slugs like every other actual person who actually carries a dedicated bear defense shotgun does. If any guide I have does, I won't bother asking him if he's using birdshot - because I don't need him thinking I'm a total goofball rookie from the get-go.

There's a reason it's called birdshot.

Ironically there was a bear killed in CO last week with birdshot. Probably more bears killed via self defense with birdshot then buckshot, just due to hunting upland/small game hunting in bear county, which is a lot of backcountry. You don't have to be an expert to think logically especially when it's backed up with successful reports. Fact is, chances are 99% of guides have never had to use that weapon in a self defense situation, even if they had, it's probably not enough to say one is hands down won't get the job done vs another in a close self defense situation. End of the day you are going to use what ever weapon you are hunting with.

Apparently you didn't read, as usual, noted in this thread ......just counting last year I spent 18 days adventuring in grizz country, in two different countries. Apparently its amazing I'm a live since I didn't use an outfitter, I'm glad you hire good guides

Again a dedicated bear defense weapon while gun/shotgun hunting is rare, it's pretty much only carried by non hunting guides. I wouldn't stress on what my guide choose as self defense range ammo, apparently it doesn't matter, contrary to popular belief. Nor would I stress if I went grouse hunting in bear country and I had to us bird shot at self defense ranges, contrary to what you say I doubt you would either.

Peppering a bear? Is that why you need more range? Long range bear defense :roflmao.

I just find it interesting that the kid did it all wrong, apparently he didn't kill a bear with birdshot, nor the officer in CO last week... it's baffling how is it possible

As always good day.

Quit straw-manning. I didn't say it wasn't possible to kill a bear with birdshot. I didn't say the kid did it all wrong. He used what he had. He was fortunate. The first shot had no effect. (Shock!) He and his uncle also shot the chit out of the bear multiple times to end the threat.

What I did say is that birdshot is not the preferred load for a dedicated bear defense shotgun. If you disagree with that, you are either not very bright on the subject, just being hardheaded so you can argue with me, or both. Period.

Your insistence on arguing about stuff that is common-sense among those who have actually been there and done that (especially since you say you have been there and done that too) is baffling to me. I honestly don't know what to make of it.

Buckshot/slugs are better at stopping a charging grizzly than birdshot.

This chit ain't hard.

NoBODY, rifle or bird hunting carries a dedicated bear gun!!!!I can't help that you can't grasp that not everyone hunts with a guide. I can't help that you can't grasp that when people are rifle hunting or shotgun hunting, bear defense is a secondary purpose for that weapon, therefore it's going to be loaded for what they are hunting.

I question your ability to understand self defense and what it means. explain to me what your dedicated bear gun is going to be in Aug in Alaska, your sheep rifle weather it be a 7-08 or 300wsm or 338 etc!!!! If you are carrying a bear tag you are going to up caliber to give you a safer range. Im sure no sheep hunter res or NR has ever killed a sheep with less then a 300 WM.. I can't believe someone would go into bear country sheep hunting without a dedicated bear gun!!!

If you where hunting grouse it would be a shotgun with "grouse"shot! You will use what's you are hunting with for self defense , and be successful, assuming your aim is true.

Stoping an animal "instantly" is caused by ONLY one thing!! Doesn't matter if it's a 338 ultra mag or lead shot. It amazing that in your expert experience you can't rationalize that.

What part of East always heard their was black bear in hunted several different leases & When WMA opened up down the road, took advantage & hunted several Public land all around East never came across any... Thought was suppose ta avoid them & report sighting, like the cougars, mtn lions, panthers cause they were protected, indangered... wasnt hunting them so didnt pay no mind... Minnesota has a bear season... could be reason for Bigfoot conventions in Jefferson, had three differnt areas hunted their...

I live in Troup area. LOL the bear in the trash was when I was living and working outside Red River NM. I have only lived in ETX for 17 years and hear stories about bear sightings, but its always someone's brother's friend's uncle that saw it. Never hear exact locations or see photos of bear, tracks, or hair. But, I am certain I saw a bigfoot leaving the bar at 2 am, even left with a friend of mine. But, he did not want to talk about it the next day.