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#6779679 - 05/31/17 10:55 AM Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD
JTPinTX Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 260
Loc: TX Panhandle
Odd combination, I know, but hear me out. This is my sons rifle that he has had for several years. He wants to try stretching it out for some distance, and I think the 162 ELD-M would be the perfect bullet for that. I have H-4350, but am trying to save it for my 6.5 Creed. IMR-4451 is available and should be a good substitute for it. Here is where the problem kicks in. Data for 4451 is sketchy at best, ELD-M is new, and most 7x57 is very conservative, to say the least.

If you look up online data for 7x57, IMR-4451, and a 160 Speer, it is obvious the data is for older military rifles. Starting charge of 39.5@2257 fps, max charge of 42.5@2410 fps. Max charge is 45,8000 cup.

So, I looked up the same combo in a 7mm-08. 7x57 has more case capacity, especially in the modern Mauser clone I have which has the intermediate length mag box and long throat in the chamber. Data for the 7mm-08 shows a starting charge of 40.6/2475 fps, and a max charge of 43.7/2635fps. Also, max charge has a "C" beside it, which means that was calculated, and not actually fired.

The rifle is an Interarms MK-X action, Shilen stainless select barrel (cut to 22" and running a Sandman TI), B&C stock, rifle built by Tip Burns with a std throat. The 162 ELD-M hits the lands with a little over 1 bullet diameter in the case mouth, just short of the heel of the boat tail touching the neck/shoulder junction. In other words, plenty of bullet in the case neck, but the bullet is not really infringing on case volume to any significant degree. It probably has a fair amount more case volume than a 7mm-08 set up in a short action, well, depending on what mags a guy is running I guess.

Common knowledge says somewhere in the 2650-2700 range is where a 7x57 should be able to throw a bullet this heavy. My son is really new to accuracy loading, and has been struggling trying to find his top speed and find the accuracy node. Last time he was home I told him just leave it with me and I would see if I could figure it out. His testing ended at 44.5 grains, which with crappy data is still out in no mans land. His last chrono reading on that was around 2550 or so.

Last night I loaded this ladder just to try and find pressure/vel top end, I shot it over the chrono this morning. Results:

44.5-2575
44.8-2610
45.1-2613
45.4-2610 (this one seated kind of funny last night, might account for the vel)
45.7-2666
46.0-2668

There are no, none, nothing marks on the case head. No swipes, no primer craters, not anything. Primers are a touch flat, but it kind of seems to me this batch of CCI-200 flatten pretty easy. No real difference in appearance from the top to bottom of this test. Mauser action is kind of stiff anyways, if you guys have messed around with one before, so kind of hard to judge bolt lift to me. Maybe a touch stiffer than normal, hard for me to tell though.

Based on what I have said, what do you guys think about where I am at velocity and pressure-wise? Stop here and look for accuracy? Keep trying to run up? Ultimately he will be using it to shoot deer/hogs as far as he can reliable put hits on them, and he will also use to to play around shooting distance.

Thoughts?


Edited by JTPinTX (05/31/17 10:56 AM)

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#6779716 - 05/31/17 11:25 AM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
syncerus Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 2283
Loc: Dallas, TX
Max 7x57 loads on the Nosler site for 160 grain bullets and IMR 4350 run slightly over 2600 fps. Since SAAMI maximum is 46,000 CUP / 51,000 PSI, I would assume, that's about where you'd be with that combination.

If I were trying to interpolate data, I'd look at .280 Remington data. The .280 Remington SAAMI maximums are 50,000 CPU / 60,000 PSI. My understanding is that you can get within 125-150 fps of .280 velocities in a modern 7x57, at the same pressures as the .280 Remington.

Of course, your mileage may vary. Interpolating loads is done at your own risk and you are expected to be experienced, cautious and sane.
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#6779729 - 05/31/17 11:32 AM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
JTPinTX Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 260
Loc: TX Panhandle
I have been loading for over 25 years, for several dozen different rifles. I have 2 7x57's I have loaded for a fair amount, but with much more standard components. I really don't like to interpolate data, but am being forced into it on this one. That is why I am posting up here, to see if my though process is on track, or if I am screwing up. That was also the reason I had my son leave the rifle with me to test, he doesn't have the experience to handle this deal yet.

I appreciate the input you gave, It appears pretty sound to me.



EDIT TO ADD:

Judging by 280 data, it appears I am probably at the top end with 7x57 around the 46 grains/2650 mark. Even at 2650, that 162 ELD-M is slick enough it fly further and holds energy further that the 143 ELD-X in my 6.5 Creed. Probably I just need to run a ladder down from 46 to try and identify a possible accuracy node, then do some group testing around that and be happy.


Edited by JTPinTX (05/31/17 11:39 AM)

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#6779816 - 05/31/17 12:45 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
Jgraider Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 06/13/15
Posts: 558
Loc: West Texas
JTPin....I believe the "C" designation next to those heavy powder charges denotes a compressed load, not calculated. You'll be crunching powder.

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#6779860 - 05/31/17 01:12 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
JTPinTX Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 260
Loc: TX Panhandle
Ah, I bet that is right. C is for compressed, not calculated. Brain fart on my part. That was for the 7mm-08 though. It is not compressed in my 7x57. I have run up to 46 and the bullet still isn't quite touching the powder in my long throated 7x57.

I picked a random charge at lunch (45.4), seated .020 off the lands, and it shot a sub-moa 4 shot group. So, it has potential, I am just going to have to run some tests and tune it in. If I can get anywhere from 1/2-3/4 MOA at 2600-2650 he will be good to go for what he needs. Of course, tighter and faster would be better...

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#6779951 - 05/31/17 02:07 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
Jgraider Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 06/13/15
Posts: 558
Loc: West Texas
Sounds like you're on the right track for sure. I bet you get one dialed in before long. Good luck.

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#6780107 - 05/31/17 04:25 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7028
Loc: Wise Co.
JT, I dunno how you feel about QuickLOAD, but I ran it for you. I set the length of bullet shank in the neck to 0.300" because you mentioned having at least one caliber or more of the bullet in the case neck. Notice what the notes at the bottom say about the possibility of burn rate variation.

Code:
Cartridge          : 7 x 57 mm Mauser (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .284, 162, Hornady ELD-M 28403 G7
Useable Case Capaci: 51.922 grain H2O = 3.371 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.184 inch = 80.88 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder             : IMR 4451 Enduron

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   86    40.50   2386    2048   43367   9064     95.3    1.324  
-09.0   87    40.95   2411    2090   44642   9170     95.7    1.306  
-08.0   88    41.40   2435    2133   45953   9274     96.1    1.288  
-07.0   89    41.85   2459    2176   47300   9375     96.4    1.271  
-06.0   89    42.30   2484    2219   48686   9474     96.8    1.254  
-05.0   90    42.75   2508    2262   50110   9571     97.1    1.237  
-04.0   91    43.20   2532    2306   51575   9666     97.4    1.220  
-03.0   92    43.65   2556    2351   53082   9758     97.7    1.204  
-02.0   93    44.10   2581    2395   54632   9847     97.9    1.188  
-01.0   94    44.55   2605    2440   56227   9934     98.2    1.173  
+00.0   95    45.00   2629    2486   57867  10019     98.4    1.158  
+01.0   96    45.45   2653    2531   59556  10100     98.6    1.142  
+02.0   97    45.90   2677    2577   61293  10179     98.8    1.128  
+03.0   98    46.35   2701    2624   63082  10255     99.0    1.113  
+04.0   99    46.80   2725    2670   64923  10328     99.2    1.099  
+05.0  100    47.25   2748    2717   66819  10398     99.4    1.085  

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     95    45.00   2732    2684   67067   9856    100.0    1.085  
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     95    45.00   2491    2231   48806   9762     93.4    1.251  



If I was doing this myself, I'd draw the line at 2700 fps and not go beyond it. Hopefully there's a node at about 2650 to 2675!
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Ronald Reagan
It's not that liberals are not smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so.

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#6780163 - 05/31/17 05:29 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
JTPinTX Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 260
Loc: TX Panhandle
I may just draw the line at 46 grains and the 2670 or so it is making there. I'm going to run some tests and see if I can find the accuracy node, and go from there. Hopefully it will shoot good between 2625 and 2675 somewhere.

Thanks for running the QL for me, I appreciate it!

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#6780165 - 05/31/17 05:31 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
syncerus Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 2283
Loc: Dallas, TX
That QuickLoad data is very interesting. We see that 51,000 PSI is hit at 2532 fps, 60,000 PSI at 2653 fps and 65,000 PSI at 2725 fps. While it's calculated rather than measured data, I think the guidelines are very useful indeed.
_________________________
NRA Endowment & DSC Lifer

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#6780196 - 05/31/17 06:19 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7028
Loc: Wise Co.
I usually just use it to get an idea what my pressure might be based on velocity. That is why I suggest not going beyond 2700 fps. QL suggests that would represent 63000 psi, and I like to reserve a few thousand psi as a safety margin. I see no reason the 7x57 can't be pushed to 62 or 63 thousand psi as long as the rile's up to it, and that notion is based on the fact that the SAAMI pressure limit for the 6mm Remington is 65000 psi. Same case.

I've found this approach to be useful for cartridges like the 7x57, like .280 Remington. I'm not going to try and get 7 Mag velocities out of it, but having a reasonably good idea where 63000 psi lives gives me a little room to negotiate for accuracy by throwing just a bit more powder at the problem. Staying under 60kpsi hamstrings a guy just a bit when looking for that sweet spot.
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Ronald Reagan
It's not that liberals are not smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so.

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#6780394 - 05/31/17 09:32 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
THF Celebrity

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 10820
Loc: Lewisville, TX
You're on the right track. The main thing is what king of pressure can that action handle. I don't know anything about it, and would not recommend going above what the normal psi specs are for that kind of round.

I know from experience, that 4451 runs slightly slower in burn rate than H4350. So, you will need about .5-.7 grains more to equal it. If you have any H4350 data, then use this info. I'm thinking about 45-46 grains would be about max, but this is an estimate. I would NOT use 280 Rem data, as it's rated at a much higher PSI than the 7x57 is.
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www.DallasReloads.com
Type 01 and Type 06 FFL

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#6780662 - 06/01/17 08:09 AM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
JTPinTX Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 260
Loc: TX Panhandle
The Interarms MK X is a modern Mauser clone. It is a good strong action. Slow lock time, but controlled round feed. I bought that rifle in 1993 or so and it got a new barrel about 6-8 years ago. It has always handled pressure real well though.

280 data suggests 2750+, and I think that is too much. When I looked further at 7mm-08 data it actually listed the 162 AMAX, that bullet wasn't listed for the 7x57. 7mm-08 listed 162 AMAX with 45.1 grains of 4451 for a velocity of 2672. Using H4350 it lists 45.0 and a velocity of 2622. For the moment I am going to consider 46 grains my ceiling since the 7x57 has more case volume and considerably more OAL to play with. If I can get good accuracy in the mid-2600 range I am going to call it done.

I have a ladder loaded up to shoot at 200 today, we will see how that goes.

Thanks for all the input guys, I appreciate it!


Edited by JTPinTX (06/01/17 08:11 AM)

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#6780776 - 06/01/17 09:24 AM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
RiverRider Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 7028
Loc: Wise Co.
Sounds like a good and reasonable plan to me.
_________________________


Originally Posted By: Ronald Reagan
It's not that liberals are not smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so.

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#6781037 - 06/01/17 01:41 PM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
JTPinTX Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 260
Loc: TX Panhandle
Ran a 200 yard ladder test at lunch and was pretty happy with it. It put all 8 rounds into less than 1 MOA (charges from 44.6 to 46.0 grains), and there appears to be a nice looking accuracy node centered around 45.6 grains. That should be right around 2650 +/-. I will move on to group testing now and dig around that area.

River Rider, the OAL on these rounds is 3.222, I measured them last night. So pretty close, since I don't know exactly where final seat depth will work out. I am .020 off lands at this point.

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#6848183 - 08/07/17 09:36 AM Re: Need help, 7x57/IMR4451/162 ELD [Re: JTPinTX]
JTPinTX Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 260
Loc: TX Panhandle
I settled in at about 2600 fps. The load seems to be holding 3/4 MOA +/- at any distance we want to shoot it. 162 ELD-M is pretty legit out in the wind. This weekend I took my son out and helped him start getting his dope lined out for it. This was the last group he shot, 3 rounds at 1055 yards. They went into 7.25" I told him that sub-3/4 MOA at 1k+, with a sporter weight Mauser and fixed 10x scope was pretty dang good. He seemed to be pretty happy with it.

IMG_3094 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/156517515@N04/][/url], on Flickr

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