Okay... let me state... I am not going cheap.. I am doing what is in my budget.. lol

So.. I had a pole barn built and I want to add electricity. I have a 200amp service for our house and I guarantee we don't come close to needing it. The dryer, A/C, and one oven use it.. and almost all the lights are led.. so..I figured rather than adding another 200 amp pole, I will just come off that box and add a sub-panel.

I have to go 125 ft to the barn.
I will be burying it in conduit.
I just do not do welding and if I decide to get another welder, it would be like a 120 mig welder, not a 220/240.
The A/C window unit will be the only high user.

I expect to add a few long fluorescent lights and then outlets, nothing more.

So, copper would be too expensive. While I would think 100 amp would be plenty, I am fine with 150-200 capability, if the cost is not crazy.

What would you guys recommend?

Here is the barn: (they are missing the roof trim in the front and back... it is being shipped) and the corners are getting replaced. The door is on order, separately, and I am now trying to get an idea what it will cost for the concrete flooring.




Thanks!

R

Have you contacted your electrical provider to check cost of a second service? A lot of time that can be done cheaper the bad part is that the monthly minimum

Oh, they are a coop and expensive as heck. The first service was 5k just to trench it to the house. This would be further away from the road so I am assuming more expensive.

The base cost would be able 37 a month. The best option I have is running a sub-panel.

R

I ran a 100amp service from my house to my shop. Used aluminium in conduit.

Which wire did you use? About how far did you run it and what is the biggest thing you run in there (beer kegerator? lol)

Thanks!

R

I run my house, garage, and mancave buildings from the house 200 amp service. Also phone and Ethernet, water and compressed air in both out buildings. All underground, all copper wire. I pulled 100 amps to garage (50') from house, and 50 amps to cave (150'). Did it all myself long ago when copper was just wire.

I saw a spool of aluminum at Home Depot, but not sure it would work.

Home Depot Link

No idea if that will work at all.

I was looking at 4/4/4/2 wire as well.

Copper is a bit much for me to spend as we spent like 3k more on the dirt than we expected and I do not have the concrete done yet so trying not to spend over $1000 on copper if I can get it for a few hundred and use aluminum...but that starts an entire debate.. heh

So, trying to see what type wire would actually work for what I need.


Thanks guys!

R

Minimum spec is #3 copper and #1 aluminum. I would use #2 copper and never look back.

Two yellows and a black AL is what I ran to my outdoor kitchen and shop....200A service to both off the house....

This is the one...

Electrician I had tie it in and the service provider said it would be fine....it's direct bury but I put it in 2" grey PVC conduit...about 360' total.....PM if you have questions....

Hrm,

Was under the impression I need 4 lines to the shop, vs 3.

R

I would highly suggest against aluminium.

Not to worry... I am burying oversized conduit so I can go back later and replace it if I like.. but right now.. the cost for copper is not in the budget.

R

Just three wires will do it. An 8' ground rod on the barn service too.

Oh, sweet.. that makes sense. They are talking about if I did not add my own ground, I would run a 4th wire and share the ground of the house.

If I run three wires, and add my own ground rod, I do not need to run the 4th wire. That works!

Thanks!

R

Make sure you use noalox

If I remember correctly you have 2 hots and a neutral with three wires but always add a ground out of your breaker box.

Why? I checked the specs....used in most overhead lines.....over gaged (not subject to over heating)....not subject to movement (fatigue failure).....reasonable application in some instances....mine was one.....AND I TYPICALLY OVER ENGINEER EVERYTHING!

Curious...

JR, I had exactly the same dilemma as you a 3 years ago, 125" to shop, also with our co-op.

I ended up running a sub panel from my house main drop, I will have to go check in a while the exact size AL wire I ran to be accurate. AL wire is perfectly fine for line runs, but copper from the drop/ box head on. I used a 100a breaker in the main box, buried AL in 2" grey conduit, but used a 200 amp panel in the shop in case I ever need to upgrade, all I would have to do is pull the AL run and up size the wire gauge. I also used the 2 recommended ground rods set at 10' apart at my shop.

IIRC, running just 2 hots and a common back to the main is the old code, new code is 2 hots, common and grnd back to main.

My limiting factor and you may check as well. The co-op said in order for me to run another 200amp service, I would have to pay to upgrade the transformer on the pole ($400), but that the above ground wire they run for service would easily handel the added amp load (AL)....
So I had a couple of options they gave me 1 Pay for the transformer exchange, add a new 200a drop on the same pole as the house main, then run the service to shop. 2 Pay for a new pole dropped 100' from the supply line and then go to shop, or do what I did.

I run a 220 compressor and a 220/120 wire welder in the shop, also wired all plugs 20 amp receptacles not standard 15a, I have never ran out of power (even close) as I can only use a couple things at once and generally, the house would have to be on total usage to compete with what I'm using. In fact, I also have a small 40a sub panel that feeds a couple of LED lights for the flag pole and parking light, also a plug for a battery tender, but these run at dark when the house load is at its lowest.

Cheapest wire I found was at Elliots electric supply, they have several locations, so you ba near one, or similar supply, so price check those kind of places as well.

As ducknbass said, make sure you use an anti-oxidation cream on the AL at the connections and double check there tightness a couple moths after your running.

Perfect information! Thanks!

Okay, so hammer 2 rods in the ground 10' apart.. got it.. and a 200 amp box, which is what I was planning to do.

100 amp breaker? Was going to go with 2 60 amps for some reason it did not make sense to me, but then again, I am just researching this atm.. a 100 amp makes more sense. dual breakers sounds like I would have to run 2 times the cables.

So, stick with GE because that is what the house uses. Found a 100 amp breaker.

I have to take the current breaker box and swap out a few 1" breakers with half inch breakers as he put all 1" 20a breakers in and used up all the freaking space. Well, not all.. I have 3 1" spots left...probably enough room for the 100amp breaker, we will see.

Thanks!

Oh, and still run 4 lines, correct? 2 ground rods and 4 lines?

Russ

The new NEC is 4 wire, I did it the "old" way of 3, 2 hots, 1 common, w/2 ground rods at the sub, #8 copper ground from the sub-panel out to the ground rods.

I used a 200a box incase I ever needed/wanted to upgrade, I also chose one that came as a package, meaning had about 20 breakers with it (at Lowes iirc) saved me a little over buying breakers separate to match that box.

The box should also come with instructions on if, or not to have the ground bar tied to the box, mine is not since I went with 3 wire run from main. Usually there is a screw that will ground the box to the bar for running 4 wires back to the main, it will be in the box install papers and generally easy to understand.

I am not an electrician by any count, but ready and able I did have access to 2 electricians in the family and a THF member (DTCooper)) that helped me "bigly" with information and specking it out. It is electricity, so if in doubt, double check before moving on.

iirc, they spec'd me for 100a service with 2/0,2/0, #6 for the common for the 3 wire run, but I will confirm that in a bit when I take the dog out.

There's not a thing wrong with aluminum, just size it correctly. A ground wire is required by current code, this may come into play if you live in a city or plan to sell anytime soon. Inspectors will flag it. Remember to NOT bond neutral and ground at the subpanel.

FYI, one of the reasons code was changed to running a ground wire to subpanels was the addition of telephone, Ethernet and other low voltage cables between the house and out building. In a fault, electricity will take the path of least resistance. Sometimes that path can be telephone or network cable if the ground at the subpanel is not adequate.

Exactly what Hankock said, when spec'ing mine, what was between the sub and main, was the 1st question I was asked, for the reasons he stated

Oh, I planned to do a ground, just looking at a grounding rod vs running a ground from the main panel vs doing both, etc.

The ground here is actually pretty soft, so can do it all...just making sure it is planned and done right and economically...mostly right

I do not need or ever plan to use 200 amps in the barn, doubt I will even use 100. The A/C is really the only energy hog I will have. I do not weld any longer, but if I DO.. it would be hog traps etc.. and thus a 120 mig welder would suit me just fine. Anything larger and I would go to my friend's place and do it there.

So...need to find the best wire and how many need to be run. If my math is right, a 2/0 would get the job done, but a 3/0 would be a safer bet. Running 4 of them 125 ft would "get the job done" and then go ahead and add 2 8' grounding rods as well. At 12 bucks per rod (I would use the copper rods there since they would be in contact with moisture I think)... not a big deal to add two.

Then a 100 amp breaker on the main box, and 2.5" conduit all the way.

Not sure of the difference in the $14 dollar per 10' gray conduit vs the regular sch 40 white pvc though.

Anyone?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help.

R

Oh, the main line from the road is all copper to the house. This would only be aluminum from the house 100 amp breakers to the barn sub panel.

Also, my network and telephone etc would be in a different panel, and I would add a ground to that as well.

Ran 200 amp to my garage last year. I used coper wire, but it was given to me. Any good buddies that work for an electric company?

You will need to use sweep 90s, those only come in the gray electrical. The gray conduit doesn't breakdown like white over time when exposed to sun.

Yep, grey pipe sweeps the only way to go..

If you go 4 wire, I dont think you need the grounds at the shop since you will have to run a bare copper ground (the 4th wire) back to the main and grnd. The common wire will have a yellow stripe to differentiate its designation at both ends.

Since you're at Cedar Creek I'm guessing your under TVEC's reign? I know underground primary is expensive, but from your second picture it looks like the the road isn't that far - since this will "technically" be a new service - does it qualify for the new service credit? When I built my house a few years ago it was like a $1500-2000 credit towards the install (which didn't equate to much since we had to go 1200')

We have bluebonnet coop. I just called them and my load at the house is pretty small since my main stove/oven uses all gas and the water heater is gas. The only real load on the house is the A/C, dryer, and one electric oven.

Since the only real load on the barn will be the window unit a/c, 100 amps should be more than enough for me.

Sure, I have tons of tools, but they are all 110 and when I use them, I open the big door and set them outside and can always use the garage plugs as well.

No new service credit for me :P

They DO provide a 400 amp service, if I wanted, or a new pole.. but all those routes seem expensive and, as she said on the phone, I should have zero issue with the power consumption of my current 200amp service.

So, 4 wires and I do not need a ground pole at the shop?

So, it looks like just buying a 4-wire bundle, 130ft (for a little extra), burying it in gray 2.5" pvc .. so.. size and type of wire? (going for safe 100 amp service since the breakers will only be 100 amp) and cost.

Thanks guys!

R

I would not do four wires. Save the bucks and upgrade the wire size a bump. OK, aluminum wiring memories and tips...

Wired many houses for cheaper builders using aluminum. Our work was guaranteed period. Over the several years I did that, we got called back to our houses that had problems. Most always the aluminum wired houses.

Aluminum is fragile, touch the bundle with a staple and you'll likely be back a few years later repairing a burnt open wire.

Aluminum is corrosive. You must use special switches and plugs and still hope for the best. It's not unusual to open an alum box and see corroded battery connector looking mess. This won't be the issue with you, as you will use copper downstream from the box, but be aware.

Your connections to the box will be alum friendly connections, but not corrosion resistant. Find a tube of no-ox and use it on the end of the feeder cable where it connects to the box.

Do not over bend or kink your aluminum cable, it will crack and burn out. Do not allow it any movement, but don't let anything squeeze or impact the cable body. Use 2.5" gray pipe and long sweeps, bigger pipe means easier pulls and you have a very long pull. Clean, prime, and glue it very well, you want it waterproof. DO NOT use a mechanical puller (chain hoist or come along) to pull your wire, that will cost you bigtime.

Get a big bucket of Monkey Snot and roll up your sleeves and get right in there with your hands as you feed the cable into the pipe, it has to be completely wet to make the tip easily. You will need a pull rope to do this job.

I imagine that i would open the ditch and lay the pipe beside it and run and glue it up a section at a time and ease the filled pipe into the hole once filled an glued up. This is a hard job, get some help.

Good luck! BTW, nice looking place!

OH, where that cable enters the service, use a bushing, not a clamp on the entrance hole. Use extra large staples to support the cable up the stud, but make tunnels for the wire, don't let the staple touch the wire. I hope we're talking wood studs here.

Because I've seen it fail many many times. I'm not a scientist nor an engineer. There is a reason in Texas we prominently use copper. It's not because it's more cost efficient on the front end.

In the old days with old lugs not designed for Aluminum it failed due to expansion/contraction and dissimilar metals. Lugs designed for aluminum have been in use for years.

Wired to the shop breaker box for 200 but only use a 100 amp main. Got 2 220's and a bunch of 110 circuits & room for 1 more 220 or 2 110's. I have never regretted wiring plugs in for 220. Remember you will never be using them all at the same time, but the first time you decide to plug in a big compressor or a cracker box welder you'll be glad you did. My transformer will carry the load and if I ever need to jump to 200 amp, the breaker box is already wired for it......

I've got a freezer, fridge, & RV plug that stay on all the time......

....and it's all copper wire!

I plan to use a 200 amp box, and wire a 220 plug or two, and just not use more than one at a time. I do not care, nor would I see the cost value in, running a full 200 amps to the barn since that would cost me a WHOLE lot of money to upgrade the house AND/or the transformer to handle more than 200 amps.

So, maybe when I am dead, someone may want to upgrade the service, but I will leave that to them.. lol

For now, 100 amps to the barn, and enough breakers and outlets to handle anything I want, in moderation.

I think I will go with a 2/0, 2/0, 2/0 aluminum URD line in conduit, with a bare wire 8 thhn copper ground running in conduit as well. That should get the job done.

Thanks everyone!

R

Hancock I am very aware of That. Like hugely aware of it.

I've also repulled feeders and dug up pipe all over Texas motor speedway because they used aluminum and it fails over time. Period end of story. Anyone who ignores that fact is either a ignoring facts, b hasn't seen it happen.

We are pulling aluminium in large data centers now but that is primarily because the tempatures are regulated so heavily.

Current code REQUIRES 4 cables (separate neutral and ground and isolated in the panel)as Hancock mentioned, and ground cable can only be 1 step smaller than the other 3.
DONT' shortcut on any of this - think of what it will take to dig it all back up once ANYBODY discovers it was done in 2017 not up to 2017 code!

I would also plan for a 'in breaker panel whole house type' surge protector install in subpanel, and a SEPARATE copper ground wire running to double ground rods JUST outside of the shop for it. FIRST time that all-metal shop gets hit with lightning, you DONT want it following route back to house FRYING everything.

IF it were me, I'd put in 4 strand aluminum cable , and go with stuff thats rated for 200 amp, even though you set it up for 100 amp. Cost is only a tiny bit more to 200a cable vs 100a cable (aluminium).

I haven't read the entire thread but I do control systems and electrical in the industrial field. I highly recommend having a 200amp service installed by your power company. You'll want to have the capability of 200amp and not worry about overloading your house.

Okay, let me put it this way... to add a 2nd pole, with the electrical company, I would have to pay about... 8000-9000 dollars.

Since the entire house (2800 sq ft) does not use 100 amps, that seems like a waste.

To run a 200 amp service from the house would mean ... ok, wait, I would have to upgrade the house to 400 amps. That would run about 2000, IF the cable to the house is rated for 400 amps, which I am not sure it is, and THEN, the monthly bill would be about $150-$250 more a month, basic.

Now, again.. this is for a 2800 sq ft house that does not have more than the A/C (16 seer) and heat pump, plus 1 electric oven that is used 1-2 times a month since I have 2 other gas ovens, and a dryer that run off the house.... the lights are about 90% LED.

So, 100 amps is fine.

Also, running a 1/0 underground in 2" conduit has a rating of 135 amps. (the cable is rated at 115 but in an underground conduit it goes up to 135). I am running 2/0 underground. It has a rating of 135, 150 in the conduit. The breaker is a 100 amp breaker....It will not even FIT a 4/0 aluminum line, but even if it did, it is only 100 amps.. there is no logical reason no matter the cost, to put a 200 amp aluminum line in on a 100 amp breaker that cannot hold a 200 amp aluminum line. To use that, I would have to swap out the entire house breaker box to a different style breaker box that would handle a 100 amp breaker with wire that size.

So, while I greatly appreciate all the input, when people ask for advice on what to use, you need to think of what they have, what will fit, the cost vs the cost of explaining to the wife you spent 11k on the barn but want to spent almost that much running 2 times the electricity your house uses to it....

Thank you for the ideas. I got it now. I am using 3 lines of 2/0 for the pull and a 8 gauge thhn bare copper to the main for the ground. I have learned a LOT listening to you guys, and I appreciate it all, I really do.. but what I am using will work and implying anything else is personal opinion.

THAT SAID, however, Oak, you bring up a goof point... I may just go ahead and add a grounding rod as well, just to be safe. 12 bucks.. well worth the comfort of knowing it is there.

Russ

I would ground the metal building to it. Lightning needs a good path to ground.

I did not install my ground rod immediately. I use the 3 wire ungrounded for years. Then one day I touched the garage door and started digging. I'm on rock so my 8' rod went in a trench with some rock salt. No more garage door wake up calls since.

lol! that would make me dig too

I would have used direct burial aluminum and be done with it. But I only have 45 years experience so what do I know.....

Well, Sam.. ol buddy.. you can use that direct bury if ya like. I looked at that as an option, I just tend to look at all the options and, like I have said many times... you ask a single question and you can and will get 50 different ways of doing it.

So, no-one said your 45 years does not count for anything, but some days a person just has to go with what meets their needs.

And, since what I chose is still a solid setup, goes above my needs easily.. it's okay that I chose to go this route... really.. it is.

So.. I am going to my ranch tonight.. and I shall drink a beer in honor of all you fine gentlemen and hope you all do the same

R

word!

I used to work with a guy long ago, and he is still my old friend. I'd ask him, 'Jim, we got a real problem here, what would you do about it?' He'd tell me a good way and I'd say, 'OK, let's do something else then.'

Got him every time, he'd spit and cuss a little, and then we'd do as he suggested. I was the boss.

lol! Well, I listen a lot to you guys. I just also listen to what momma will let me spend, so I find what is safe...upgrade that a little to be extra safe.. then upgrade it more to fit the budget.

That way I can upgrade the heck out of other things if I want to :P
R

Sounds like you got it then. Sorry for my late and maybe unwanted reply.....heck I'll share a cold one with you too !! When the water in the conduit breaks down the insulation of your wire and your re-pulling those conductors.....remember what old Sam said

Never "unwanted" Sam-meister.. heh... just ribbin ya

I am willing to bet the wires et al outlive the both of us... here's to hopin it is so!

I think I'll be fine, but here's to not letting anyone know if I ain't! lol

R

No prob !! I know it will out live me......so your good to go......with a few extra dollars in your pocket. Was brought up in the field my Dad was a contractor for over 50 years in Dallas. I remember once he was constructing an out building and he buryed some metal copper MC cable about a foot under ground. I asked him about it........and that was exactly his comment " it'll outlive me" and you'll be the one to fix it. You know that iwas over 30 years ago and we replaced it 2 years ago. So I'd say your good to go.....