I try to get all my customers to work their way to witnessing their own hit, or miss. The closer in the shot distance, the more difficult that is to achieve. When they are not witnessing impact, even as far out as 600 yards (flight time) often the problem is no follow through on the trigger, they slap the trigger. And often some misses are caused by the same thing, slapping the trigger. So they moved the rifle, while the bullet was still in the barrel.

Do the math, if you like. I know what I've seen from hundreds of rifle shooters.

This assumes all your shooting mechanics are exactly the same with and without the sled, correct?

Just consider the manner in which the sled changes the way you shoulder the rifle, not to mention changes in the rifle's length of pull before you answer.

Come to me after youve regulated a couple dozen double rifles! Recoil starts before the bullet leaves.

Add a sled and you for all practical purposes, create a different shooter.

Some may find this discussion helpful.

Link

I use a fire control rest too and have the same results you do.

you betcha red rider, that 100% agreement

The power of the net.

Watch these very high speed video segments of both rifles and firearms being fired and let's then continue the discussion.

For those looking for a more scientific discussion.

As for the math, mass and inertia cannot be ignored.

Link

Very wrong. Recoil starts the micro second that the bullet starts to move down the barrel.
Also if you shoot a wood stock it will eventually mess it up.
At Weatherby virtually every broken wood stock, usually the grip, we get sent in has been shot off a lead sled.
Also it will eventually wear the action screw holes and then the rifle will not shoot for didly.

The movement is small, but it's there.

The fastest bullet cannot outrun physics. Any force pushing the bullet out of the bore is pushing back on the rifle, and at the same time. To deny that is to deny the basic laws of physics.

All I'm seeing in the video is what I expected, the recoil starts the moment the bullet starts to move. Kind of tough to defy physics.

The general consensus there is that recoil begins before the bullet leaves the bore, but it isn't in full force yet. Essentially, you've contradicted yourself.

I don't understand spending all of this time, energy, and money chasing accuracy then taking chances with inconsistency that a lead sled is likely to introduce.

In my case the sled was putting a ton of pressure on the stock, and it was in turn putting pressure on the barrel I believe.

What Sneaky said.

Very wrong

Agreed, recoil begins as soon as exploding gases begin to accelerate the bullet. However, the question remains when and how quickly the recoil causes the barrel to move upward to change the POI.

The videos shared earlier appear to show that recoil impacts rifles and handguns differently, with semi handguns seeing less upward motion than revolvers, and heavier semi rifles seeing even less than semi handguns. This makes complete sense when you consider the action of the semi begins to absorb recoil before it reaches the shooter, and the semi rifle having much greater mass than the handgun.

The original post brought into question how a rifle reacts differently in a lead sled that could create a change in the POI. The video clearly shows that while recoils begins immediately in both the handgun and rifle, the heavier mass of the rifle creates a much slower and lengthy recoil.

So then, does a lead sled cause a rifle to kick up more quickly so that the bullet has not yet cleared the muzzle? In the case of a semi, I would say never. As for bolt actions and single shots, it might with the larger bore guns.

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore, Dan. Maybe it's me, but you've lost me.

Regardless of technicalities, it's clear that a significant minority of lead sled users have experienced a POI shift when no longer using the device. For whatever reason, which could be anything, even psychological, it's a real phenomenon.

If you chose to use a sled, without fail fire a couple of verification shots without the device, if only for your own peace of mind.

I've never used them much, because the most experienced shooters I know despise them, and their reasons are sound. The one time I did use one, a friend was shooting off of it and getting inconsistent results. I tried it, suspected the sled was to blame, and slid it out of the way. Problem was gone. Gun would shoot. Never touched one again.

If you'll notice, two of our most experienced shooters on this forum don't recommend them. That's not to say that those that do use them are inexperienced. It's just that I know that these two are, and more importantly, they are experienced long range shooters. Extended ranges reveal so much more than the standard ranges will. Precision rifles will reveal more at any range than rifles of standard accuracy. I would guess that a vast majority of sled users that see no difference just aren't picking up on slight differences. And, maybe those differences aren't significant enough to impact the shooting that they do.

For me, there is no benefit to them and plenty of drawbacks. I can't trust them to shoot the same point of impact. I can't trust them to leave my equipment undamaged. And I deprive myself of valuable shooting experience that can only be obtained with a stock jammed up into my shoulder. If I'm spending the time and money to shoot, then I want the most out of it. We don't all align the same way, though. If it works, it works.

Easy test for this is with a handgun. Even at short range say 15 yards it is easy to see. Try a 9mm handgun with 115 gr bullets and 147gr bullets will be slower than the 115 but will impact higher on the target than the faster 115gr bullets which are faster and have less time and mass for gravity to pull them down so gravity and TOF would not explain it.

The reason the slower bullet with heavier recoil will hit higher is that it is in the barrel longer and that longer time has allowed the muzzle to rise slightly more due to recoil and recoil is also higher with the heavier bullet lifting the barrel even more from the extra recoil.

In rifles it works the same way but is real easy to demonstrate with handguns and is why in some handguns such as TC Contenders with sights if you look through the barrel and where the sights are aligned they will not be to the same point at the sighted in distance. Chose the TC since it is very easy to see on it especially with a heavier recoiling caliber.

It is not just shooting from lead sleds that POI will change from the impulse of recoil while the bullet is still in the barrel.

Try this sometime, take an accurate rifle on sandbags or the lead sled or what ever you shoot best from. shoot a nice small group say with the lead sled without touching the scope, then shoot one with a little downward pressure on the scope at the caps, the second group will be lower than the first because the rifle didn't recoil the same while the bullet was in the barrel.

Those are just a couple easy things to do and change of impact can easily be seem, there are many more.

TDK that example of regulating double rifles is a good one, and people wonder why a great shooting double rifle costs so much have no real idea.

As far as lead sleds and shooting, I will not use one as I prefer to shoot more like I will hunting. I do know those that use them for load development taking more of the shooter equation out of the link as much as they can, much like shooting a handgun from a Ransom rest for checking ability of the equipment more. I personally like walnut and blued steel and do not want to subject my rifles to the extra punishment.

Perhaps the question could be easily answered by using two different size weights on a lead sled to see if there is a difference in the POI between the two. Or better yet, compare the results between a weighted and unweighted lead sled. Assuming the same person fires both shots, the only difference between the two would be the weight and mass of the resistance to the recoil. Trying the same test without a lead sled and with two different sized shooters would add more variables.

Could be something to try. We have 2 25lbs plates holding ours down

I don't see the use for them.

If you can't shoot steady enough from a bipod and sandbag you need to spend more time at the range or go to a shooting class like FiremanJG offers.

There will eventually come a time if you hunt long enough that your scope will fail or get damaged in the field when your hunting many hours away from home. This happened to me one season. I had to drive into Lubbock to academy that evening and purchase another scope.

I had to get up and wait to first light and shoot in the rifle. I used a sack of corn in the prone position to sight it in. The next morning I shot a 178" Mulie on a spot and stalk at 185 yards. I still have that scope on that rifle sighted in from that morning using the bag of corn.

IMHO Lead Sled (or similar) will help verify the precision of the rifle but does nothing to verify the accuracy of the shooter. It does, however, increase some confidence in the shooter by removing some of the variables introduced when shooting offhand. In short, the shooter knows the rifle works so he/she knows what to work on. Even when I've shot off a sled (or bags) I've always picked up the firearm and shot it offhand, standing, sitting, and/or using a tree for a rest.

Precision - putting all the shots in one group
Accuracy - putting all the shots in the group at the place you have selected.