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#6709320 - 03/19/17 01:42 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Korean Redneck]
FiremanJG Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 20053
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Man, I would think that twist rate would stabilize them. I'm using that twist with a 75 gr A-max, but out of a .22-250. So I'm getting 3200 fps MV. That might be why they do well.

I'm thinking drop down in bullet weight a bit, and try again.
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#6709327 - 03/19/17 02:02 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Korean Redneck]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 10489
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Originally Posted By: Korean Redneck
Blah blah blah! Man that wasn't worth reading!

I basically had the same problem this weekend. Loaded up 7 different types of 223 with 75gr amax and ramshot tac. Went from 23.2 to 25.0 in increments of 0.3gr. Loaded all them about 0.013-0.015" jump. These did horribly! The best was the lightest load at about 3.5" at 300yards, groups of 5. Got worse and worse the hotter the load. Hottest went about 15" group.

What should I take out of this session? Should I scrap the bullet or try another powder or give up and just throw away the rifle?
FYI, it was shot out of a 22" tikka varmint. I shot some freedom munitions 60gr Vmax at 400 yards and it was shooting good enough to easily hit the 6" steel the whole time.


KR, The 75 grain A-max fired in a mag length Tikka is going to be a hard combo to get to work. The ogive of the bullet is seated below the case mouth, and makes for a difficult combo to get to shoot well. The bullet will have a LONG jump to the rifling. Good results start by picking the right combination of parts first. My son also has a Tikka t# varmint, and I have tried the 75 grain A-max with poor results. I have also tried the 75 grain BTHP, and it shoots sub 1/2 moa. I have plinked with this combo out to 600 yards. If you look at the ogive to tip lengths and compare the 75 A-max and 75 BTHP, they are night and day different.

I have seen the same issue with the new Nosler RDF bullets. The new 70 grain .224" RDF bullet has the same issue as the 75 A-max. It has a very long ogive to tip length. I good friend of mine was 100% determined to get this bullet to shoot out of his new custom AR-15 with these bullets. I told him early on that it was a loosing battle and he should pick a different bullet. After MANY range shooting sessions, he finally gave up on it. The combo is just not there.
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#6709375 - 03/19/17 02:58 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Matt Hejl]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 10489
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Matt,

To answer your question, there's multiple ways to working up a good load. Some methods are faster than others. But it helps to know what caliber and components your are starting with to assist you in load work up.

In a nut shell, I can generally find a good load in a rifle in about 25 rounds. I'll load up 4 or 5 rounds in 5-6 different groups, each load increasing in powder charge very slightly. I'm looking for consistency in small group size and low extreme spread in velocities. But I start with known components and combinations of powder, bullet, and cartridge that are a good fit. Often times you see shooters put together components that will be a challenge from the beginning to get to work well.

For example, here's a target picture from a 243 Win shooting at 300 yards with a 115 grain DTAC coated bullet. You can see that Load C is the tightest shooting group, minus the called shot low (the diamonds are 3" tall, or 1 moa at 300 yards). The 4 rounds are sub 1" at 300 yards. None of the other groups showed the consistency as Load C did. The ES of 47 fps would generally be a high number, but for a coated bullet, that's not bad. A coated bullet will ALWAYS give you higher ES numbers than a naked bullet will.

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#6709586 - 03/19/17 07:51 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Matt Hejl]
Matt Hejl Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/17/11
Posts: 318
I am loading for a Savage Axis II with heavy barrel. The barrel is 22" long and its a .243

My initial load was 35gr Varget for a Hornady 87gr softpoint bullet. I was loaded about 0.025 off the lands.

Shooting at 100 yards was grouping 1-1.25" (using bipod and rear bag)

Just figured it could be better than that

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#6709587 - 03/19/17 07:53 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Matt Hejl]
Matt Hejl Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/17/11
Posts: 318
I will probably end up getting a different projectile. Id want a projectile thats on the upper end of spectrum (heavy) for varmints, but still big enough to kill mid-sized game such as a hog or whitetail deer.

I like the Hornady SST in my .308 and I use the 125 grainers in my 300blk bolt gun.

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#6709642 - 03/19/17 08:54 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Matt Hejl]
Korean Redneck Offline


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 2369
Loc: Houston
Thanks for info guys. I modified the magazine to accept longer loads but the limit here was the distance to the ands. I think I am going to give up on this bullet. I have a box of 65gr gamekings. I'm going to try them next as I want something I can hint with on this particular rifle. I was surprised how much longer the amax was vs the gameking for only 10gr more in weight.

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#6709677 - 03/19/17 09:34 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Korean Redneck]
FiremanJG Online   content
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Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 20053
Loc: Wolfe City, TX
Originally Posted By: Korean Redneck
I have a box of 65gr gamekings.


Yeah buddy! up
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#6709691 - 03/19/17 09:47 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Korean Redneck]
patriot07 Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1333
Loc: Royse City, TX
Originally Posted By: Korean Redneck
Thanks for info guys. I modified the magazine to accept longer loads but the limit here was the distance to the ands. I think I am going to give up on this bullet. I have a box of 65gr gamekings. I'm going to try them next as I want something I can hint with on this particular rifle. I was surprised how much longer the amax was vs the gameking for only 10gr more in weight.
That's why Chad talked me into the 75 BTHP for my Tikka 223 - because it was a better hunting round than what I was originally considering. I'm trying to talk my brother into a Savage 308 and shooting the 168 amax for the same reason.

I've had good luck with every Sierra MK or GK that I've tried. Should be a good round for what you're wanting to do.

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#6709911 - 03/20/17 08:26 AM Re: Working a load [Re: Matt Hejl]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 10489
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Originally Posted By: Matt Hejl
I am loading for a Savage Axis II with heavy barrel. The barrel is 22" long and its a .243
My initial load was 35gr Varget for a Hornady 87gr softpoint bullet. I was loaded about 0.025 off the lands.
Shooting at 100 yards was grouping 1-1.25" (using bipod and rear bag)
Just figured it could be better than that


The Hornady 87 grain SP bullet is not a seating depth sensitive bullet, so you can pretty much seat the bullet to fit and feed in your mag, and tune it with the powder charge. Varget will work, but it's not the optimum powder. You'll lose about 100-200 fps to other slower burning powders. But it should work if that's the powder you plan to use.

When testing loads, it's vital important to keep your case prep as consistent as possible. So, make sure you are using all the same brand of brass, powder, bullets, and primer during testing, only changing one variable at a time. Also, I don't test loads or shoot for groups with a factory rifle and a bipod, until the rifle is proven to not have any issues with a bipod attached. MANY times I have shot a factory rifle and have bedding issues, or some kind of stock to action mating issue. A bipod will enhance these issues and cause POI shifts, which will show up as large or random groups.

I'm also paying attention to what the groups are telling me. The target I posted a picture of above actually has a common pattern to it for load work up. In Load A, the groups are stringing, or up and down. This tells me I have either passed a node or am approaching a node. Load B has a somewhat circle pattern. Load C the shots went in nice and tight, which I honestly could have stopped right there, and known this would be the load. So I shoot Load D, and it opens up some, and Load E opens up even more. It's a simple pattern and can generally be noticed at longer rangers than 100 yards. You have to have a rifle that will talk to you in it's groups and how it responds to your scope adjustments. I have had many rifles not respond to scope adjustments and kind of take a mind of their own, and you have to figure out what's causing what.
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#6710314 - 03/20/17 02:40 PM Re: Working a load [Re: ChadTRG42]
Matt Hejl Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 05/17/11
Posts: 318
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Originally Posted By: Matt Hejl
I am loading for a Savage Axis II with heavy barrel. The barrel is 22" long and its a .243
My initial load was 35gr Varget for a Hornady 87gr softpoint bullet. I was loaded about 0.025 off the lands.
Shooting at 100 yards was grouping 1-1.25" (using bipod and rear bag)
Just figured it could be better than that


The Hornady 87 grain SP bullet is not a seating depth sensitive bullet, so you can pretty much seat the bullet to fit and feed in your mag, and tune it with the powder charge. Varget will work, but it's not the optimum powder. You'll lose about 100-200 fps to other slower burning powders. But it should work if that's the powder you plan to use.

When testing loads, it's vital important to keep your case prep as consistent as possible. So, make sure you are using all the same brand of brass, powder, bullets, and primer during testing, only changing one variable at a time. Also, I don't test loads or shoot for groups with a factory rifle and a bipod, until the rifle is proven to not have any issues with a bipod attached. MANY times I have shot a factory rifle and have bedding issues, or some kind of stock to action mating issue. A bipod will enhance these issues and cause POI shifts, which will show up as large or random groups.

I'm also paying attention to what the groups are telling me. The target I posted a picture of above actually has a common pattern to it for load work up. In Load A, the groups are stringing, or up and down. This tells me I have either passed a node or am approaching a node. Load B has a somewhat circle pattern. Load C the shots went in nice and tight, which I honestly could have stopped right there, and known this would be the load. So I shoot Load D, and it opens up some, and Load E opens up even more. It's a simple pattern and can generally be noticed at longer rangers than 100 yards. You have to have a rifle that will talk to you in it's groups and how it responds to your scope adjustments. I have had many rifles not respond to scope adjustments and kind of take a mind of their own, and you have to figure out what's causing what.


Chad, what would you recommend to use with .243? Powder wise? With 80-90gr projectiles.

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#6710331 - 03/20/17 03:00 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Matt Hejl]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Celebrity

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 10489
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Something in the 4350 to 4831/R22 burn rate. Anything in that area would get you top speed, plus in the sweet spot for accuracy. I've used H1000 with the heavier 105/115, but it's a compressed load, but does yield high speeds also at max pressures.

https://www.hodgdon.com//wp-content/uploads/2017/01/burnratecolor.pdf
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#6710630 - 03/20/17 08:13 PM Re: Working a load [Re: Matt Hejl]
scdogman Online   content
Woodsman

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 147
Chad,

I'm curious of the relationship of group e and the group c as far as the percentage difference?

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