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Breeding question #6676956 02/16/17 04:28 PM
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BadLander Offline OP
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The owner of my sires 4 yr old litter mate (brother).
wants a puppy (female) from my Sire and Dam to breed back to his Sire.
For some reason my brain cant register this. Not Show dogs just Hunting (Akc) stock.
Thank You In advance


Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6677023 02/16/17 05:07 PM
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bill oxner Offline
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Professionals call it line breeding. Laymen call it inbreeding.


Quail hunting is like walking into, and out of a beautiful painting all day long. Gene Hill


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Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6677026 02/16/17 05:08 PM
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kindall Offline
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Sometimes there is very small difference between line breeding, and inbreeding.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: Breeding question [Re: kindall] #6677061 02/16/17 05:26 PM
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BadLander Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kindall
Sometimes there is very small difference between line breeding, and inbreeding.

Soooo is it ARKANSASish LOL
or frowned upon. Or just dont do it? seems to close for me.


Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6677090 02/16/17 05:43 PM
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kindall Offline
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I have found it depends on the quality of the dogs, and the offspring.
When it works its considered a good thing. If it goes bad, then its not.
One of my best dogs was highly line bred, coefficient breeding was in the mid 30s.

Both dogs need to have the qualities your trying to replicate (doubling up on genes).
If one doesn't, it should be excluded from the breeding program.
Why some people don't like it, is because you also take a chance of bringing out bad qualities.
You never want to breed siblings, or mother/father to one of their offspring. You need to have at least one breeding separating them. There is also Back breeding. Its where you breed back to a great grandfather.
Most of this stuff is done with highly titled dogs, and not your everyday hunting buddy. It takes a person with a lot more knowledge than me. Its also not for the softhearted, as you could find yourself needing to cull puppies.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6677310 02/16/17 08:10 PM
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mattyg06 Offline
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Line breeding is the only way you can reliably clump groups of genes together to shift the population in the direction the breeder wants to. If you did a bunch of breedings to everyone out of your line (outcrosses) (like in humans) only then you tend to spread the gene groups out in your population and breed to the middle. Usually it is impossible to improve the population the way humans breed.

Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6677319 02/16/17 08:23 PM
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MS1454 Offline
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Hmm, we seem to be getting bigger stronger and faster, and better lookng. Humans must be doing something right.


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6677323 02/16/17 08:27 PM
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MS1454 Offline
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Probably getting dumber though.


Originally Posted By: Fooshman
I'll take a Black Female every time.

Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6677424 02/16/17 09:41 PM
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BadLander Offline OP
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10/4 thanks for the input.


Re: Breeding question [Re: mattyg06] #6677796 02/17/17 02:05 AM
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Right on, The biggest bull elk or deer would not think twice about breeding his daughters and in doing so will pass his good genes. Many a good line has been lost by making an outcross.


Originally Posted By: mattyg06
Line breeding is the only way you can reliably clump groups of genes together to shift the population in the direction the breeder wants to. If you did a bunch of breedings to everyone out of your line (outcrosses) (like in humans) only then you tend to spread the gene groups out in your population and breed to the middle. Usually it is impossible to improve the population the way humans breed.


Re: Breeding question [Re: Blackrain] #6686226 02/24/17 09:38 PM
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I have a 7 yo English Setter male that is everything I want in a birddog. Smart, beautiful, and birddog supreme. I have a hunting buddy that owns a daughter out of his full litter mate sister. She is a super talented young dog herself. Would this be too close genetically to breed? I think not but I want to hear thoughts and opinions.

Re: Breeding question [Re: NorthTXbirdhunter] #6686248 02/24/17 10:10 PM
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kindall Offline
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Originally Posted By: NorthTXbirdhunter
I have a 7 yo English Setter male that is everything I want in a birddog. Smart, beautiful, and birddog supreme. I have a hunting buddy that owns a daughter out of his full litter mate sister. She is a super talented young dog herself. Would this be too close genetically to breed? I think not but I want to hear thoughts and opinions.


Your going to get half that say it to close, and others that say its not.



Shopping with your husband is like hunting with the game warden.
Experience is what you get, when you didn't get what you wanted.


Re: Breeding question [Re: NorthTXbirdhunter] #6686267 02/24/17 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: NorthTXbirdhunter
I have a 7 yo English Setter male that is everything I want in a birddog. Smart, beautiful, and birddog supreme. I have a hunting buddy that owns a daughter out of his full litter mate sister. She is a super talented young dog herself. Would this be too close genetically to breed? I think not but I want to hear thoughts and opinions.


I don't think it is.

Having said that, I would ask a couple of breeders for their opinions on the matter.


Say When.....
Re: Breeding question [Re: NorthTXbirdhunter] #6686353 02/24/17 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: NorthTXbirdhunter
I have a 7 yo English Setter male that is everything I want in a birddog. Smart, beautiful, and birddog supreme. I have a hunting buddy that owns a daughter out of his full litter mate sister. She is a super talented young dog herself. Would this be too close genetically to breed? I think not but I want to hear thoughts and opinions.


Try it. If it works and you get what you want keep breeding them. If it doesn't work out put the pups down and don't do it again. I'll bet it works out well.

Re: Breeding question [Re: NorthTXbirdhunter] #6686400 02/25/17 12:17 AM
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bobcat1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: NorthTXbirdhunter
I have a 7 yo English Setter male that is everything I want in a birddog. Smart, beautiful, and birddog supreme. I have a hunting buddy that owns a daughter out of his full litter mate sister. She is a super talented young dog herself. Would this be too close genetically to breed? I think not but I want to hear thoughts and opinions.
Not at all. Perfect linebreeding Arkansas style Uncle and niece. grin


Bobby Barnett

Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6686463 02/25/17 01:03 AM
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They'll be linebred if it works and inbred if it don't.


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Re: Breeding question [Re: BadLander] #6695354 03/05/17 03:36 AM
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Poisonivie beat me to it. A buddy of mine says if the pups turn out good its considered line breeding.
I find the genetics fascinating even though I sometimes don't understand it completely. What is interesting is so many people want to breed to A championship Stud when that is the opposite of what you should do. You should be breeding to the DAM and her bloodlines.
Here is an interesting article if you care to be educated a bit

http://www.westwindgsps.com/motherlines.htm


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Re: Breeding question [Re: Blanco] #6698501 03/07/17 08:43 PM
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That was a good read. I also really enjoy reading those old time breeders and their insights.


Quote:
Pedigrees only serve as a guide to show us what "blood" could be carried by certain animals. Only through careful study of a particular animal's offspring and intimate knowledge of its ancestors can we determine what "blood" an animal is actually carrying. It is necessary to breed both according to bloodlines and performance to achieve success. We are looking for animals who are outstanding performers within the same bloodline.

It is only by inbreeding that we can double up on the good and bad qualities so we can see what we are dealing with. When faults in the line come to the surface we can skim them off and get rid of them. By out-crossing we only cover up the faults and reduce our knowledge of what to expect in subsequent litters. Anyone who condemns inbreeding must in turn condemn the detective who brings crimes to light as well as the messenger who brings bad news.

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