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Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! #6648394 01/25/17 06:51 PM
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Okay. Come on Texans. Who is with me here? I think that Texas should make a law forcing any property owner that puts a No Guns Allowed sign (30.06) should be forced to put this sign up beside it. LET"S DO THIS!




Last edited by Jungleexplorer; 01/25/17 07:05 PM.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6648870 01/25/17 11:40 PM
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cheers


Originally Posted by Sneaky
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored]
Originally Posted by beaversnipe
Actually, BBC is pretty damn good

"You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6649195 01/26/17 03:23 AM
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More laws? No thanks.. I can either choose to support the business or not & let that be that..


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: T Bone] #6649306 01/26/17 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: T Bone
More laws? No thanks.. I can either choose to support the business or not & let that be that..


True, but I believe in choice and consequence. The law gives the business owner the choice to deprive you of your rights. I think there should be a consequence attached to that choice. Don't you think a business should be made liable if they choose to deprive you of your right to defend yourself on their property?

Last edited by Jungleexplorer; 01/26/17 06:22 AM.

I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6650605 01/27/17 05:58 AM
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Exactly Jungleexplorer!!!!

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: T Bone] #6651377 01/27/17 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: T Bone
More laws? No thanks.. I can either choose to support the business or not & let that be that..
Doesn't have to be "another law" simply add it to existing law that if you post your property/business with either 30.06 or 30.07 then this public warning must be also posted.....


Originally Posted by Sneaky
I believe in science and I’m an insufferable [censored]
Originally Posted by beaversnipe
Actually, BBC is pretty damn good

"You Cannot Simultaneously Be Politically Correct And Intellectually Honest!"
Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: SnakeWrangler] #6652327 01/28/17 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: SnakeWrangler
Doesn't have to be "another law" simply add it to existing law that if you post your property/business with either 30.06 or 30.07 then this public warning must be also posted.....




cheers


I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6653077 01/29/17 04:38 PM
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You are proposing a law demanding that my business do something that I may not want to do. For example the bakery that was sued out of business because they refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. Is that OK?

There are thousands of examples where new laws force business owners to go against their core principles. A business owner should make his/her own rules. The government has zero right to control legal activities on private property.

Yes, actions have consequences - but let the free market decide what businesses will fail or flourish. People who care about carrying their gun, already know exactly what both signs mean. As an avid gun guy, I won't spend my hard earned money in an establishment that doesn't follow my ethics and my code of conduct.

Besides, I am responsible the safety of myself and my family - not some business owner and his signs.

Respectfully,
Marc

Last edited by Marc in Bastrop; 01/29/17 04:48 PM.

A Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on the dinner menu. That is why this country was specifically not designed as a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.
Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Marc K] #6653319 01/29/17 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Marc in Bastrop
You are proposing a law demanding that my business do something that I may not want to do. For example the bakery that was sued out of business because they refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. Is that OK?

There are thousands of examples where new laws force business owners to go against their core principles. A business owner should make his/her own rules. The government has zero right to control legal activities on private property.

Yes, actions have consequences - but let the free market decide what businesses will fail or flourish. People who care about carrying their gun, already know exactly what both signs mean. As an avid gun guy, I won't spend my hard earned money in an establishment that doesn't follow my ethics and my code of conduct.

Besides, I am responsible the safety of myself and my family - not some business owner and his signs.

Respectfully,
Marc



You said it better than I did, but this is exactly my point.. Let the market decide which businesses survive rather than trying to shame the ones that don't operate the way you think they should..


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6654430 01/30/17 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
Originally Posted By: T Bone
More laws? No thanks.. I can either choose to support the business or not & let that be that..


True, but I believe in choice and consequence. The law gives the business owner the choice to deprive you of your rights. I think there should be a consequence attached to that choice. Don't you think a business should be made liable if they choose to deprive you of your right to defend yourself on their property?


If you choose not to patronize a certain business, how can it deprive you of your rights? However, if you choose to enter a gun-free zone you should accept some of the responsibility for what could occur on the premises.

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Choctaw] #6654706 01/30/17 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Choctaw
If you choose not to patronize a certain business, how can it deprive you of your rights? However, if you choose to enter a gun-free zone you should accept some of the responsibility for what could occur on the premises.


So what you are saying is, business owners should be allowed to make choices to disrespect the Constitution and suffer no legal consequences for making this choice.


I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

https://sorryformysins.com/

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Marc K] #6654713 01/30/17 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Marc in Bastrop
You are proposing a law demanding that my business do something that I may not want to do. For example the bakery that was sued out of business because they refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. Is that OK?

There are thousands of examples where new laws force business owners to go against their core principles. A business owner should make his/her own rules. The government has zero right to control legal activities on private property.

Yes, actions have consequences - but let the free market decide what businesses will fail or flourish. People who care about carrying their gun, already know exactly what both signs mean. As an avid gun guy, I won't spend my hard earned money in an establishment that doesn't follow my ethics and my code of conduct.

Besides, I am responsible the safety of myself and my family - not some business owner and his signs.

Respectfully,
Marc



I see your point, but unfortunately your are comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you did not know this, but we live in the United States of America, and in this country we hold certain rights and principles higher then others. The founders wanted certain rights to be more Sacred the others. Among these Sacred rights is the "Right to Bare Arms". Unlike other newer supposed rights, like same sex marriage, that are found nowhere in the Constitution, the founders felt so deeply about the right to bare arms that they spelled it out and also added the words, "Shall Not Be Infringed". This strong wording means that this right shall not be touched. Basically, don't even look at trying to touch this right.

The Founders did not say this about same sex marriage or just about all other "rights" that have been instituted in the past 8 years under the governance of people who hate the very idea of the Constitution and sought with all their might to undermine it.

So while what you say makes sense in some cases, it does not apply here, because we are not talking about just any ol' other right here. We are talking about a special sacred right that is specifically guaranteed by the Constitution and is not supposed to be infringed by anyone. I don't believe that a business should even have the right to infringe on the right the bare arms, but since they do, I think there should be a consequence for a business owner who chooses to disrespect the very core principles of the Constitution.

Call me an old fashion patriotic American, but in this country the citizenry has the Constitutional right to carry guns. End of story. If business owners don't like that, they are free to move to another country that has gun control. The choice here is not for the consumer to choose where to shop, but for a businesses to choose where they want to respect the constitution or not. That is the choice here.

Last edited by Jungleexplorer; 01/30/17 09:51 PM.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6654953 01/31/17 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
I see your point, but unfortunately your are comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you did not know this, but we live in the United States of America, and in this country we hold certain rights and principles higher then others. The founders wanted certain rights to be more Sacred the others. Among these Sacred rights is the "Right to Bare Arms". Unlike other newer supposed rights, like same sex marriage, that are found nowhere in the Constitution, the founders felt so deeply about the right to bare arms that they spelled it out and also added the words, "Shall Not Be Infringed". This strong wording means that this right shall not be touched. Basically, don't even look at trying to touch this right.





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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6655083 01/31/17 02:04 AM
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I just choose not to enter gun free zones whenever possible.


Originally Posted By: theserxtremedays
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers
Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6655192 01/31/17 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer


I see your point, but unfortunately your are comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you did not know this, but we live in the United States of America, and in this country we hold certain rights and principles higher then others. The founders wanted certain rights to be more Sacred the others. Among these Sacred rights is the "Right to Bare Arms". Unlike other newer supposed rights, like same sex marriage, that are found nowhere in the Constitution, the founders felt so deeply about the right to bare arms that they spelled it out and also added the words, "Shall Not Be Infringed". This strong wording means that this right shall not be touched. Basically, don't even look at trying to touch this right.

The Founders did not say this about same sex marriage or just about all other "rights" that have been instituted in the past 8 years under the governance of people who hate the very idea of the Constitution and sought with all their might to undermine it.

So while what you say makes sense in some cases, it does not apply here, because we are not talking about just any ol' other right here. We are talking about a special sacred right that is specifically guaranteed by the Constitution and is not supposed to be infringed by anyone. I don't believe that a business should even have the right to infringe on the right the bare arms, but since they do, I think there should be a consequence for a business owner who chooses to disrespect the very core principles of the Constitution.

Call me an old fashion patriotic American, but in this country the citizenry has the Constitutional right to carry guns. End of story. If business owners don't like that, they are free to move to another country that has gun control. The choice here is not for the consumer to choose where to shop, but for a businesses to choose where they want to respect the constitution or not. That is the choice here.


Your thought process is bypassing the most central theme of our entire constitution: The right of the individual. The second amendment may be the most sacred to you personally, but clearly not to the authors of the constitution. It is the right of the individual.

See your own second sentence that I highlighted above. The second amendment was inserted simply as a tool to safeguard the most important right........

Read our constitution again and you can't miss it - that is exactly why our founding fathers worked so hard to NOT make us a democracy. That is exactly WHY we have the second amendment: To provide the common man, the ability to enforce the right of the individual.

I am a shooter and a strong believer in the 2A principles. I carry and I believe in my right to carry. But you are saying that your right to carry trumps my right to stop you from carrying in my living room.

Understand that we are not talking about public property and THAT is the key difference. Again, the whole point of the second amendment is protect the right of the individual - and yet you would support a law to blatantly trample on all of the core ideals of our constitution.

The kind of thought process that believes that the government has the right to dictate what happens on private property, is precisely what separates liberals/socialists from folks who actually believe in the constitution.

Respectfully,
Marc




Last edited by Marc in Bastrop; 01/31/17 03:27 AM.

A Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on the dinner menu. That is why this country was specifically not designed as a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.
Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6655220 01/31/17 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
Originally Posted By: Marc in Bastrop
You are proposing a law demanding that my business do something that I may not want to do. For example the bakery that was sued out of business because they refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. Is that OK?

There are thousands of examples where new laws force business owners to go against their core principles. A business owner should make his/her own rules. The government has zero right to control legal activities on private property.

Yes, actions have consequences - but let the free market decide what businesses will fail or flourish. People who care about carrying their gun, already know exactly what both signs mean. As an avid gun guy, I won't spend my hard earned money in an establishment that doesn't follow my ethics and my code of conduct.

Besides, I am responsible the safety of myself and my family - not some business owner and his signs.

Respectfully,
Marc



I see your point, but unfortunately your are comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you did not know this, but we live in the United States of America, and in this country we hold certain rights and principles higher then others. The founders wanted certain rights to be more Sacred the others. Among these Sacred rights is the "Right to Bare Arms". Unlike other newer supposed rights, like same sex marriage, that are found nowhere in the Constitution, the founders felt so deeply about the right to bare arms that they spelled it out and also added the words, "Shall Not Be Infringed". This strong wording means that this right shall not be touched. Basically, don't even look at trying to touch this right.

The Founders did not say this about same sex marriage or just about all other "rights" that have been instituted in the past 8 years under the governance of people who hate the very idea of the Constitution and sought with all their might to undermine it.

So while what you say makes sense in some cases, it does not apply here, because we are not talking about just any ol' other right here. We are talking about a special sacred right that is specifically guaranteed by the Constitution and is not supposed to be infringed by anyone. I don't believe that a business should even have the right to infringe on the right the bare arms, but since they do, I think there should be a consequence for a business owner who chooses to disrespect the very core principles of the Constitution.

Call me an old fashion patriotic American, but in this country the citizenry has the Constitutional right to carry guns. End of story. If business owners don't like that, they are free to move to another country that has gun control. The choice here is not for the consumer to choose where to shop, but for a businesses to choose where they want to respect the constitution or not. That is the choice here.


The choice is absolutely up to the consumer.
And no, I do not believe a business should be held liable for not allowing firearms on the premises.


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6655455 01/31/17 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
Originally Posted By: Choctaw
If you choose not to patronize a certain business, how can it deprive you of your rights? However, if you choose to enter a gun-free zone you should accept some of the responsibility for what could occur on the premises.


So what you are saying is, business owners should be allowed to make choices to disrespect the Constitution and suffer no legal consequences for making this choice.


The Constitution protects the individual. You wish to impose your will upon others which is not conducive to a free state.

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Marc K] #6655791 01/31/17 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Marc in Bastrop
Your thought process is bypassing the most central theme of our entire constitution: The right of the individual. The second amendment may be the most sacred to you personally, but clearly not to the authors of the constitution. It is the right of the individual.

See your own second sentence that I highlighted above. The second amendment was inserted simply as a tool to safeguard the most important right........

Read our constitution again and you can't miss it - that is exactly why our founding fathers worked so hard to NOT make us a democracy. That is exactly WHY we have the second amendment: To provide the common man, the ability to enforce the right of the individual.

I am a shooter and a strong believer in the 2A principles. I carry and I believe in my right to carry. But you are saying that your right to carry trumps my right to stop you from carrying in my living room.

Understand that we are not talking about public property and THAT is the key difference. Again, the whole point of the second amendment is protect the right of the individual - and yet you would support a law to blatantly trample on all of the core ideals of our constitution.

The kind of thought process that believes that the government has the right to dictate what happens on private property, is precisely what separates liberals/socialists from folks who actually believe in the constitution.

Respectfully,
Marc



You know what Marc. I really like you. I really appreciate that you are willing to have an intelligent debate about things and respond with intelligent arguments instead of just getting mad and shouting insults at me like a lot of other people on this forum have done when they disagree with me. I respect that quality immensely. It shows a true maturity on your part.

You are absolutely correct that individual liberty is a very strong cornerstone of our Constitution. But counter to what has been taught in modern times, I don't believe it was the founders intent for the idea of individual liberty to be interpreted as an excuse to do anything you want. As you said they did, "NOT make us a democracy". Actually, few people understand this truth and the fact that you do, gives me great respect for you. What most people don't understand, is that our country is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. It is not a man that is in control though, it is an idea that is in control. The idea that dictates to us is called the, Constitution of the United States of America. It is unmovable and unchangeable and does not bend to will or whims of the the people. While it can be added to (as long as the addition is agreement with the original intent) the original intent cannot be detracted from or altered. It is basically, the voice of the founders, speaking to us from the grave.

Once we understand this concept, it is there that we realize that in this country, we don't have the right to do just any ol' thing we want to. Yes, we have individual liberty, as long as we are respectful of the the voice of the Founders. In other words, we don't have the right to make this country into anything we want to. I like to say it like this.

"The founders bought the right to create a country in the manner they saw fit with their death and their blood. The price of creating a country to your liking has not gone down. If you don't like country the founders created and want to change it, you have to pay the same price they did."


What I am saying is this. I find it very disrespectful to the founders for a business owner to reject one of the the most important guaranteed freedoms they sought to protect. When you open a business, you are inviting citizens of the United States of America to come on to your property. You are asking them to come on your property. You are opening your property up and granting these citizen the right to come on your property. You should also respect their constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Let me put it another way to you. Let's remove guns from the equation. Let's replace guns with "Individual Liberty". Do you think a business should have the right to ask you to leave your constitutional rights to individual liberty at the door? I bet not.

You and agree almost 100% on this issue. I think the one area that you and I might have a little difference, is that I see rights that are specifically spelled out in the Constitution as being Sacred and Untouchable and superseding all other rights. I don't see all rights as equal. I see some rights as superseding other rights. I don't think Americans have the right to do anything they want. I think they have to right to respect the Constitution and the founders intent.

I firmly believe that it is the duty of every single American to protect and preserve the Constitution of the United States of America, not just the Supreme Court.


At the end of the day, I honestly believe that we should not even be having this conversation. I believe the right to bare arms should be emphatic and absolute through out the whole of America. There should not be a need to put up a sign at all because the government and all the people should automatically respect the Founder's intent and direction on this issue.



Maybe you are right that the law should not force them to but the sign I suggested. I can see your point on this. It would create some legal conflict in the courts and might be used as a defense to force business owners to do other things. But these business owners should be shamed to tears for not respecting the blood of those that have died to protect the idea that is the Constitution of the United States of America, that protects not only their right to individual liberty, but also guarantees our right the bare arms.

I would really appreciate it if you would watch this video to the end. I made this video after I laid my grandfather (a WW2 survivor) to rest at Dallas-Fort Worth National Cemetery. I made this video in his honor and for all those that have died defending the Constitution of the United States of America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvCiN-IQGwY


I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

https://sorryformysins.com/

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6656385 02/01/17 12:36 AM
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I do understand the sentiment. My grandfather fought against Hitler before the war, my Dad was WWII, my brother was in Vietnam and I have two family members serving now. I'm 63 years old and the constitution was taught in school way back when.

We both respect the constitution of our land and the true wisdom behind it. The key point that we diverge on, will cause us to argue in circles indefinitely:

1) You have made it clear that 2A gives you the ability to dictate what I do or don't allow on my own property.
2) I strongly disagree with that position and feel that 2A applies to public property/places only.

I don't have a choice but to travel/move about in public places. It cannot be avoided. 2A MUST apply.
I DO have choices as to what private property I CHOOSE to enter, knowing what the risks are.

Open/concealed carry has always has been appreciated in my home, my business and my land. Even before the new law was passed. But I have NO intention of ever voting to lose the choice given to me by the constitution to control my own property.

It is crucial not to lose sight of the basics: The core reason for the second amendment is to provide the ability to defend against others who would impose their will upon free men.

What I wish people would do, versus what I would force them to do are very different to me.

Respectfully,
Marc

Last edited by Marc in Bastrop; 02/01/17 12:41 AM.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Marc K] #6656501 02/01/17 01:54 AM
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I agree with you, but I guess I am failing to see how you are connecting Personal property (like your home) vs business property (your store). In your last two responses to me you have referred to your "Personal Property" like your home. I am not talking about your home. There is no question that you should have the freedom to regulate who comes into your home. But a business falls under a different category. A business is a place that the owner has issued a cart blanch invitation for citizens to come on. That is totally different then you own home where you require special permission before a person can come on.


Let my put it this way. When a business owner puts up a 30.06 sign, he is taking away a right from a customer. In this case the owner is requiring the customer to give up their right is they want to come one their property.

Earlier you made reference to the baker baking a cake for the same sex couple. But that is the total opposite of this situation. In that case the customer is requiring the owner to perform an action. In the gun case the owner is requiring the customer to perform an action, and in the cake case the customer is forcing the owner to pereform an action. Do you see the difference?

Let's take it one step further. Do you believe that the law should allow business owhere should have the right to put up a sign saying "No Homosexuals Allowed"?

To me a No Guns Allowed sign is the same as a "No Homosexuals Allowed" sign. Why? Because, while Homosexuals will argue that what they do is "Natural", it is an indisputable NATURAL human right to defend one self.

My problem with the No Guns Allowed law, and where your argument falls apart is, it is discriminatory. It discriminates again't my natural human right to defend myself.

You maintain that a business should have unrestricted authority to restrict who comes on their property and that is what justifys the 30.06. But that is not the way it is and you know. If you put up a "No Homosexuals Allowed" sign, you would be in sued out of existence tomorrow.

No, business do not have that right in many cases. So why do you believe they should be able to discriminate against gun carriers?

I will say here again that I am talking about business property and not your personal home.

I am really interested in hearing your response two this question.

Respectfully,
Victor

P.S. I an sick with the flu and miserable and on my smartphone, so forgive the typos. I actually agree with you, but I like talking with you and playing devils advocate. Hope you don't mind.


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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Marc K] #6656853 02/01/17 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Marc in Bastrop


I don't have a choice but to travel/move about in public places. It cannot be avoided. 2A MUST apply.
I DO have choices as to what private property I CHOOSE to enter, knowing what the risks are.



This is what our constitutional scholar in Abilene doesn't somehow comprehend..


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6656865 02/01/17 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer


I will say here again that I am talking about business property and not your personal home.
.


Again, this is a distinction that makes no sense.. Both are Private Property, not Public.. And the property owners' rights to decide who enters their property outweighs your right to bring a weapon on that property.

You may not like it but by now there's no reason you shouldn't understand it.


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6656881 02/01/17 01:04 PM
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The bigger issue you have is that the 2nd Amendment isn't an unlimited right.. You can't carry in most Government offices, schools, sporting events, etc.. You can't own a nuclear bomb or a Tomahawk missle.. In other words, there are limits to your rights..

I get that you don't like it. But again, you should at least understand it..


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Payne] #6656909 02/01/17 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Payne
Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
I see your point, but unfortunately your are comparing apples to oranges. Maybe you did not know this, but we live in the United States of America, and in this country we hold certain rights and principles higher then others. The founders wanted certain rights to be more Sacred the others. Among these Sacred rights is the "Right to Bare Arms". Unlike other newer supposed rights, like same sex marriage, that are found nowhere in the Constitution, the founders felt so deeply about the right to bare arms that they spelled it out and also added the words, "Shall Not Be Infringed". This strong wording means that this right shall not be touched. Basically, don't even look at trying to touch this right.





rofl

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: T Bone] #6657280 02/01/17 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: T Bone
[quote=Marc in Bastrop]

This is what our constitutional scholar in Abilene doesn't somehow comprehend..


Personal attacks like these have no place in the arena of mature discussion. You are free to disgree, but there is no call for insulting me. Keep it mature and respectful.


I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

https://sorryformysins.com/

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: T Bone] #6657287 02/01/17 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: T Bone
Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer


I will say here again that I am talking about business property and not your personal home.
.


Again, this is a distinction that makes no sense.. Both are Private Property, not Public.. And the property owners' rights to decide who enters their property outweighs your right to bring a weapon on that property.

You may not like it but by now there's no reason you shouldn't understand it.



You are incorrect on this point. The law makes a huge distinction between personal property and commercial property. The law poses completely different sets of rules and requirements on your home and your business. It is crystal clear that the law makes a definite distinction between your personal home property and your business. This is an absolute indisputable fact that any business owner knows.

In the eyes of the law your home and your business are not the same, they are different and fall under a completely different sets of rules and restrictions.

Last edited by Jungleexplorer; 02/01/17 06:22 PM.

I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: T Bone] #6657331 02/01/17 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: T Bone
The bigger issue you have is that the 2nd Amendment isn't an unlimited right.. You can't carry in most Government offices, schools, sporting events, etc.. You can't own a nuclear bomb or a Tomahawk missle.. In other words, there are limits to your rights..

I get that you don't like it. But again, you should at least understand it..


You are correct in your statements here, but you are simply stating what IS and not what should be. I know the current laws that exist. I am not talking about what is. I am talking about should be.

Just because something IS, does not make it right. The law has no power to decide what is right and wrong. The law only decides what is Legal and Illegal.

Many things that are currently legal are wrong, and even the very law itself agrees that it is wrong. Take Abortion for example. There are many cases where a pregnant woman was murdered. In these cases, the murderer was tried and convicted of not one, but two murders.

So it is clear that the law considers an unborn child as being equal to a full grown adult, because those that have murdered that unborn child have been punished to an equal degree as if the child were an adult. But, this same law authorizes doctors to kill an unborn child. So what is the law sayin here on this issue? It is saying that killing an unborn child is murder, but doctors are authorized to commit murder.

This is the current state of things when it comes to the subject of the law and the killing an unborn child. I am only making a statement of what IS, not what I think should be.

I am not arguing for or against anything here, I am simply stating the way things are. Which is same thing you did in your response to me.


Last edited by Jungleexplorer; 02/01/17 07:10 PM.

I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6657528 02/01/17 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
Originally Posted By: T Bone
Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer


I will say here again that I am talking about business property and not your personal home.
.


Again, this is a distinction that makes no sense.. Both are Private Property, not Public.. And the property owners' rights to decide who enters their property outweighs your right to bring a weapon on that property.

You may not like it but by now there's no reason you shouldn't understand it.



You are incorrect on this point. The law makes a huge distinction between personal property and commercial property. The law poses completely different sets of rules and requirements on your home and your business. It is crystal clear that the law makes a definite distinction between your personal home property and your business. This is an absolute indisputable fact that any business owner knows.

In the eyes of the law your home and your business are not the same, they are different and fall under a completely different sets of rules and restrictions.


And here you repeat yourself 3-4 times and yet I'm supposed to believe you because..... you say so? Educate me on the difference..


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6657537 02/01/17 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
Originally Posted By: T Bone
[quote=Marc in Bastrop]

This is what our constitutional scholar in Abilene doesn't somehow comprehend..


Personal attacks like these have no place in the arena of mature discussion. You are free to disgree, but there is no call for insulting me. Keep it mature and respectful.


Personal attack? Son, please.. A little sarcasm does not a personal attack make...


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6657744 02/01/17 11:33 PM
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Victor,

Your entire position has boiled down to your assertion of these two statements:
1) "He is taking away my rights because I CHOSE to go there after he warned me of his rules."
2) "His private business is actually not private property - it is public property."

I vehemently and categorically disagree with both of those assertions, which I have heard from the Libs for 40 years.

In reading the constitution and many articles and writings of the authors, from the Federalist Papers on down - I do not recall any stipulated difference between "types" of a man's property. Whether it is his farm or his store, it is his private property. Who pays the taxes and is responsible for it's success or failure? The public? The government?

Making your privately owned property accessible to the public, specifically does not give them "Carte Blanche" access. It is only a conditional agreement. Ever see a sign that says something like "We retain the right to refuse service....."

THAT concept goes back to the founding of our nation because that is what the founding fathers were trying achieve. Control of ones own property - of any type - by force if necessary.

Marc

Last edited by Marc in Bastrop; 02/01/17 11:36 PM.

A Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on the dinner menu. That is why this country was specifically not designed as a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.
Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Marc K] #6657761 02/01/17 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Marc in Bastrop
Victor,

Your entire position has boiled down to your assertion of these two statements:
1) "He is taking away my rights because I CHOSE to go there after he warned me of his rules."
2) "His private business is actually not private property - it is public property."

I vehemently and categorically disagree with both of those assertions, which I have heard from the Libs for 40 years.

In reading the constitution and many articles and writings of the authors, from the Federalist Papers on down - I do not recall any stipulated difference between "types" of a man's property. Whether it is his farm or his store, it is his private property. Who pays the taxes and is responsible for it's success or failure? The public? The government?

Making your privately owned property accessible to the public, specifically does not give them "Carte Blanche" access. It is only a conditional agreement. Ever see a sign that says something like "We retain the right to refuse service....."

THAT concept goes back to the founding of our nation because that is what the founding fathers were trying achieve. Control of ones own property - of any type - by force if necessary.

Marc


Spot on!

Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: T Bone] #6658220 02/02/17 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: T Bone
Personal attack? Son, please.. A little sarcasm does not a personal attack make...


grin I rest my case.


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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Paluxy] #6658236 02/02/17 07:16 AM
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To all of you who are arguing in favor of property owner rights.

Guys, I hear what you are saying and I wish that what you are saying was actually the way things are, but they are not. I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you. When people come to the realization that what the believe to be true, is false, it is like squeezing the puss out of an infected wound. It is good for healing, but very painful. I just want you to know that what I am about to say is not intended to demean or insult you in any way. I am simply revealing to you a reality, that you may be unaware of.

In very much the same manner of the story of the "Kings New Clothes", you have all been decieved into believing an illusion based on the Consensus of the Majority of Popular Opinion. I will admit here that to undo this deception, in some case proves to be an impossible task. I doubt very seriously that no matter how well I present the evidence, you will view me with the same regard as the boy who shouted "The King Has No Clothes!". But never the less, I will try.

The whole foundation of all of ya'lls arguments against me is based on two principals.

1. Property ownership.
2. The right to choose how to use your property.

Because you believe that both of these things a real and that you actually possess them, is reason that you can't understand what I am saying.

The truth is, that you posses neither the right to own property nor the right to choose how to use it. You never have had either of these rights.

This is a "King has no clothes" moment for you and I realize that your first reaction to what I just said is to laugh and think I am crazy. But I beg you to tarry with me just a little longer.

I could present you with long drawn out explanations to prove to you that what I said was true, but as they say in science, "One good experiment is worth more then ten thousand pounds of theory.


So here is an experiment that you can try to see if I am telling the truth about you not having the right to own property.

"Don't pay your property tax and see who actually owns the property you think is yours"


I know it a hard truth to swallow, but in the State of Texas, you do not have the right to own property. The State owns all the property and you are just leasing the privilege to use it from them. They charge you an annual leasing fee for the privilege of using it and if you refuse to pay, they will take it away from you and lease it to someone who will. In Texas we are essentially living on the lord's land (land lord) like they did in old England, but in our case the land lord is the State of Texas.

Now once you come to grasp with that reality, this next point will make a lot more sense to you. Because the State actually owns the land we think is ours, the State also gets to decide how we can use the land we have use of.

You see, all along you guys have all maintained that you have the right of choice of how you get to use your so called "Private Property". Everytime you espoused this supposed right you think have, you were completely ignoring the facts that you all know to be true. You do not have the choice of how to use your land, whether it's your home or your business. You know in your heart that you live under a mountain of rules and restrictions imposed on you by the State as to how you can use the land you have access to. You know I am telling the truth here.

If you live in the city, can you park your car on your lawn? Have you ever got a notice or a fine for weeds or grass being to tall in you yard or ally? Can you build a carport over your drivway without a permit?

I could name ten thousand more things the government (State or City) tells you that you CANNOT do on this land that you think you own.

Why is it that they have so much control and say so over what you can do on "Your own Private Property".

It is because "THEY OWN IT". That is why they can tell you what you can and cannot do on it.

You see guys, you have no rights of anything on the Government's property that you have use of. What you have is "Privileges" that State grants you at their pleasure, and can take away or modify at the leisure. You are leasing the land from them and you only have what privileges they grant you.

The bases of all of ya'lls arguments against me is based on Property Ownership and the RIGHT to choose, neither of which are true.

I know you are going to reject everything I said and try to provide some far out arguments to prove you have the right to own land and choice of how to use. My response to you will be one and the same.


Don't pay your property tax and break all the landlord's rules and you find out real quick who really owns the land you think is yours


I'm sorry for my sins Jesus, please forgive me.

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Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6658295 02/02/17 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


THEN STOP DOING IT!! It really hurts... roflmao


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6658315 02/02/17 01:15 PM
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Note that you advocate a law that simply compounds the problem that you just railed against. Do you not see the irony?

You continue to talk down, as though you think that you are teaching me something I hadn't already figured out 45 years ago. I'm done with this one.

Marc


A Democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on the dinner menu. That is why this country was specifically not designed as a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.
Re: Proposal for new Gun Free Zone law. Let's do this! [Re: Jungleexplorer] #6658326 02/02/17 01:26 PM
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I'm checking out on this as well but I enjoyed the manifesto JE..








** The above comment is in no way, shape or form intended to be, or misunderstood as, a personal attack **


Originally Posted by Jungleexplorer
I really hate to do what I am about to do, because it will be very painful for you.


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