texashuntingforum.com logo
Main Menu
Advertisement
Affiliates
Advertisement
Newest Members
nmmuledeerhunter, Dzia-Dzia, TraeMartin, Beatixre, MooseSteed
71989 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
dogcatcher 110,788
bill oxner 91,416
SnakeWrangler 65,417
stxranchman 60,296
Gravytrain 46,950
RKHarm24 44,585
rifleman 44,461
Stub 43,769
Forum Statistics
Forums46
Topics537,031
Posts9,719,619
Members86,989
Most Online25,604
Feb 12th, 2024
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
AR Restriction Question #6612226 01/02/17 04:52 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,216
P
papa45 Offline OP
Pro Tracker
OP Offline
Pro Tracker
P
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,216
In AR counties, beside the 13-inch rule, a legal buck can have "at least one unbranched antler." Two scenarios:

1. A young buck has 2 or 3 points on one side, but the other side is missing, broken or deformed so that there are no points. Is that a legal buck?

2. A spike has a visible bump on one or both sides. What is a branch? Must the antler be entirely smooth to be unbranched? A point is defined as a projection of one inch or more; does a point become a branch in this case?

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612233 01/02/17 04:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,326
S
sqiggy Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
S
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,326
1. Yes
2. No, unless it's one inch or longer. Think you answered your own question here.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612252 01/02/17 05:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100
dgilbert Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,100
Broken antler does not count as unbranched. Visible bump is a baby.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: dgilbert] #6612258 01/02/17 05:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,612
Q
QuitShootinYoungBucks Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
Q
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted By: dgilbert
Broken antler does not count as unbranched.


I think you are incorrect about that.


[Linked Image]

https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612264 01/02/17 05:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,612
Q
QuitShootinYoungBucks Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
Q
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,612


[Linked Image]

https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #6612271 01/02/17 05:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,638
P
Pitchfork Predator Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
P
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,638
Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted By: dgilbert
Broken antler does not count as unbranched.


I think you are incorrect about that.


If that's the case wouldn't the chart above say one broken or unbranched antler?


Marc C. Helfrich
Retirement Planner

www.insured-wealth.com
469-323-8920
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #6612319 01/02/17 05:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,612
Q
QuitShootinYoungBucks Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
Q
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,612
Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted By: dgilbert
Broken antler does not count as unbranched.


I think you are incorrect about that.


If that's the case wouldn't the chart above say one broken or unbranched antler?


I shot a cull like this and the GW said it was fine. He looked at it and easily determined I hadn't broken it myself. Might that differ from GW to GW? Maybe, but he said it qualified.



[Linked Image]

https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #6612335 01/02/17 05:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,841
D
DocHorton Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
D
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,841
Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted By: dgilbert
Broken antler does not count as unbranched.


I think you are incorrect about that.


If that's the case wouldn't the chart above say one broken or unbranched antler?


Unbranched is a more general term than broken, spike, nubbin, deformed, etc. So by saying unbranched it includes all of the possible more specific and limiting terms.

That is also why they say "antlerless" tag rather than "doe" tag. You can kill a buck that is antlerless, but you cannot kill a doe with antlers. You can also kill a buck that does not have a hardened antler.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612351 01/02/17 05:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965
T
Texas buckeye Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,965
Agree. GW is going to be able To determine really quick of a time was sawed off or broken off, as anyone with common sense would.

As always, use common sense and don't be caught with a dreamer tool or saw in your bag with fresh antler powder on it and you should be good to go.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612398 01/02/17 06:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
R
Rustler Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
R
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
Definition of a legal buck in any AR county.

a hardened antler protruding through the skin AND; at least one unbranched antler; OR
an inside spread measurement between main beams of 13 inches or greater (does not apply to a buck that has an unbranched antler).

Must have at least one unbranched antler or be 13" inside.

A buck that has one branched antler and is missing the other antler doesn't have one unbranched antler, it has one branched antler plus nothing on the other side to measure width from.

---> TPWD Whitetail Deer <--- Click on the Special Antler Restriction tab on the left.

Some GW's cut some slack, others don't.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612448 01/02/17 07:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,638
P
Pitchfork Predator Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
P
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 19,638
I agree, seems to me if a broken antler qualified they would state that in the guidelines and show a picture example of a broken antler.

I went to the current website and it doesn't say anything about it being legal with pics or words. I wouldn't take the chance before contacting TPW and making sure.


Marc C. Helfrich
Retirement Planner

www.insured-wealth.com
469-323-8920
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612468 01/02/17 07:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,404
D
DQ Kid Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
D
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,404
I have heard from processor that heard from GW that broken antler is "not" unbranched, simply broken.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612528 01/02/17 08:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 612
W
wtr Offline
Tracker
Offline
Tracker
W
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 612
Broken antler qualifies as unbranched.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612554 01/02/17 08:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,220
Grizz Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,220
An antler which is completely missing from one side with a branched antler on the other side is very simple to me. If there is no antler it can’t be an unbranched antler, so it can’t be legal. A broken antler causes more of a problem because it may or may not have been branched yesterday or even this morning.

I don’t know how any individual GW would see it, but with no evidence the broken antler was branched and that you knew it, I don’t see any way that case can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If it’s a buck I don’t recognize, I can assume the broken antler used to be branched but there is no way to know for sure just as there is no way for the GW to know for sure. Now if the break happens to be fresh you will definitely have some explaining to do.

If I saw a buck I recognized and I knew the antler was unbranched and unbroken the last time I saw it, I would leave it alone. Regardless of what the GW can or can’t prove, my knowing it would be enough. At that point it's more of an ethical decision and I interpret the law to mean in the antler's original unaltered state.

It's very simple to to write "broken" into the law if they wanted it prohibited, and they didn't. Unless they just overlooked that all these years I have to assume that means they did not intend broken antlers to be an automatic disqualifier.


[Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612566 01/02/17 08:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
R
Rustler Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
R
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
All anyone has to do to get a 100% correct answer is submit a question to TPWD.
---> TPWD
No reason to go off of interweb forum opinions, take the 2 minutes & send a question.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612570 01/02/17 08:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
T
Texas Dan Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
Some of you guys are over thinking this.

The end goal of AR's is to protect young bucks with TWO branched antlers AND an inside spread less than 13 inches. For that reason, any buck that only shows a single, branched antler, is legal. And of course, two unbranched antlers falls short of the protected group as well.

As for a broken antler, it could be easily argued to a judge that no evidence exists the antler was branched. While I may not be an attorney, everyone should know it's the responsibility of the prosecution to provide evidence of guilt. Unless the GW has the broken antler, there is no way to prove it was branched. You might just as well be charged with speeding for being caught driving a vehicle that's capable of exceeding the posted speed limit.

Of course, an antler that appeared to have been sawed off is another matter.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612593 01/02/17 08:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
R
Rustler Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
Offline
THF Trophy Hunter
R
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,225
Not at all, the regulation states;

a hardened antler protruding through the skin AND; at least one unbranched antler; OR an inside spread measurement between main beams of 13 inches or greater (does not apply to a buck that has an unbranched antler).

If the buck only has one antler that one antler must be unbranched.


Directly from TPWD-

Definition of Legal Buck

In antler restricted counties, a legal buck deer is defined as having:

a hardened antler protruding through the skin AND;
at least one unbranched antler
; OR
an inside spread measurement between main beams of 13 inches or greater (does not apply to a buck that has an unbranched antler).

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: Rustler] #6612601 01/02/17 08:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
T
Texas Dan Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
Originally Posted By: Rustler
Not at all, the regulation states;

a hardened antler protruding through the skin AND; at least one unbranched antler;


A deer with a broken antler one one side, and a branched antler on the other side, satisfies this definition.

Again, no evidence exists the broken antler was branched, and no judge is going to allow charges in a "what if" condition.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612607 01/02/17 08:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 118
O
OneShotDrop Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
O
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 118
Discussions like this make my head hurt and make me happy I don't hunt in an AR county.


If some animals are good at hunting and others are suitable for hunting, then the Gods must clearly smile on hunting.
Aristotle
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612686 01/02/17 09:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 181
F
fencewire Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
F
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 181
anyone submit the question yet instead of playing game warden/judge?

I'll go with the idea that if the antler is broken off then there is no way it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt what that "was", it could have been a mirror image of the remaining antler, or it could have been a spike but it had better not be sawed off or otherwise manipulated other than via natural means.

I don't hunt in an AR county so it matters naught to me, but I'll submit the question if no one else has.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612817 01/02/17 10:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601
sig226fan (Rguns.com) Offline
duck & cover
Offline
duck & cover
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,601
I agree that a missing antler can't be unbranched....

BUT... could you make the argument that the inside spread is greater than 13? Infinity is greater than 13, and if you measure the inside spread,,,, where does it stop?


The whole law stinks.

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: sig226fan (Rguns.com)] #6612828 01/02/17 11:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
T
Texas Dan Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
Originally Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)
I agree that a missing antler can't be unbranched....


Neither can it be considered branched.

Before you can be found guilty, there must be clear evidence a law was broken because the antler was branched. No games, just following the way the legal system works.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: papa45] #6612903 01/02/17 11:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,124
P
postoak Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
P
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,124
Dan, the hunter has no way of knowing whether the missing antler was branched or unbranched. Therefore he shot without determining that the missing antler was in fact unbranched. Of course, if he had earlier seen the buck with the missing antler and it was unbranched and he can provide to the GW the missing antler and match it to the stub on the buck, then he would probably have a case.


Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks] #6612974 01/03/17 12:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,609
S
SapperTitan Offline
Taking Requests
Offline
Taking Requests
S
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 29,609
Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted By: Pitchfork Predator
Originally Posted By: QuitShootinYoungBucks
Originally Posted By: dgilbert
Broken antler does not count as unbranched.


I think you are incorrect about that.


If that's the case wouldn't the chart above say one broken or unbranched antler?


I shot a cull like this and the GW said it was fine. He looked at it and easily determined I hadn't broken it myself. Might that differ from GW to GW? Maybe, but he said it qualified.

looks like at least an inch of the base was left making him legal with one inbranched antler

Re: AR Restriction Question [Re: postoak] #6613542 01/03/17 04:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
T
Texas Dan Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,210
Originally Posted By: postoak
Dan, the hunter has no way of knowing whether the missing antler was branched or unbranched. Therefore he shot without determining that the missing antler was in fact unbranched. Of course, if he had earlier seen the buck with the missing antler and it was unbranched and he can provide to the GW the missing antler and match it to the stub on the buck, then he would probably have a case.


No, our legal system doesn't place the burden of proof on the accused but on the prosecution. It's up to the prosecution to provide undeniable evidence the missing antler was branched. The hunter has no obligation to provide any evidence the missing antler was unbranched. I don't know how to explain it more simply.

I should add that I'm not trying to encourage anyone to break off an antler to make a deer legal, but focusing on deer with broken or damaged antlers as a result of natural causes.


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

© 2004-2024 OUTDOOR SITES NETWORK all rights reserved USA and Worldwide
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3