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#6611622 - 01/01/17 08:41 PM Lack of bullet performance
Birdog62 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 453
I handloaded a box of Nosler BT 130 gr. .270 cal. with 45 gr. of IMR4895. I calculated MV at 2915 fps. I shot a big mature doe at approximately 200 yds. I shot her broadside behind the shoulder. She bolted on the shot and I thought i hade missed. She ran approximately 60 yds. and started stumbling and went down. When i examined the kill I had broken a rib on the entrance hole, clipped both lungs and had an exit hole between 2 ribs on the off side approximately the same diameter as the bullet. It's like the bullet didn't expand at all. I calculated the energy at approximately 1800 ft lbs. @ 200 yds. I would have thought the bullet should have expanded, turned the vitals into jelly, & dropped her in her tracks. What went wrong? I'm relatively new to handle loading so I'm curious. Thanks
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#6611723 - 01/01/17 09:39 PM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
DStroud Online   content
Pro Tracker

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 1286
Loc: Waco
Shooting behind the shoulder into the lungs it takes a few seconds for the deer to expire. They can make a little distance in those few seconds.
I shoot into the shoulder so they fall and by the time they regain their feet if they manage to do so they fall back down without going anywhere.
If you had struck the offside shoulder your deer would probably not gone more than a few yards. JMO

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#6611725 - 01/01/17 09:42 PM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
HandgunHTR Offline
Woodsman

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 120
Loc: Cypress, TX
If she died within 60 yards then the bullet did exactly what it was supposed to do. In fact, if you had an exit of about 2X the diameter of the bullet, which I expect you do, then the bullet expanded perfectly. I would expect that when you opened her up, you found quite a bit of internal damage, even if the insides were not "turned to jelly". As for the "drop her in her tracks", that is never going to happen with a behind the shoulder shot. In order for that to happen you have to take out the CNS, which means a spine or brain hit.

I am constantly amazed by the common belief that a baseball sized exit is what is supposed to happen. If you have an exit of more than 2X the diameter of the bullet then your bullet "failed" (i.e came apart).
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#6611818 - 01/01/17 11:11 PM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
WileyCoyote Online   content
Extreme Tracker

Registered: 09/01/04
Posts: 4722
Loc: The Dogwood Capital of Texas
What HTR said +1...

FWIW couple years ago on a Lottery Hunt at Guad River SP I popped a mature doe thru an opening in a cedar treeline with a 270 and Fed Prem 130gr SGK's at about 90/100 yardsand made sure to hit the upper "point" of the shoulder square on to take out both shoulders and exited that left a half dollar sized exit hole... and the doe still managed to drive her 2 broken shoulders on her chest down the rocky access trail about 30-40 yards before she gave it up. Perfect bullet performance and the Deer still managed to try and hide under a tree off the trail. The Hunt Manager had warned us about trying to retrieve wounded deer outside of our immdiate assigned hunt area and suggested taking only anchoring shots for those of us hunting the thickets and wooded areas...as you could not track your wounded deer until after legal shooting hours for safety's sake, as there were blinds and shooting lanes every where.
Ron
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#6611841 - 01/02/17 12:11 AM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
ChadTRG42 Online   happy
THF Celebrity

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 10117
Loc: Lewisville, TX
BirdDog62, let's calculate a few things on your 270 load. With 45.0 grains of IMR 4895 with a 130 grain in the 270 Win, I'm calculating with QuickLoad about 2760 fps in a 22" barrel. 45 grains is a fairly light load for the 270 and a 130 grain, and 4895 is a fairly fast burning powder for the 270. These 2 combinations will reduce your velocity quite a bit. 45 grains is closer to a minimum load with this combo.

Calculating your drop, wind drift, bullet speed and energy, at 200 yards I'm showing a bullet impact speed of 2310 fps. I know from experience that bullets will show minimal expansion around the 2200 fps mark, and anything slower will have minimal to zero expansion. At your calculated 2310 fps, you are getting minimal expansion. Hitting the lungs with not much "meat" to help open up the bullet, you will minimize your expansion. Now push your 270 with a 130 to it's full potential of about 3060 fps and your 200 yard impact speed will be about 2580 fps. This will greatly enhance the terminal performance of the 130 grain ballistic tip.

On the energy, the energy may be there at the 1800 ft lbs, but the velocity is slow enough where the bullet didn't expand to dissipate that energy into the target. Therefore a lot of the energy leaves out the exit wound.

The fact is you made a great shot and you were able to recover the doe. The bullet did do it's job. However, you may want a load that will help expand the bullet better next time with a faster bullet. Using 4895 in the 270 is a powder that will work, as you already know. But even with a max load of 4895, you are leaving at least 100 fps on the table with that powder, and possibly 150 fps. Switch to a slower burning powder like 4350, 4831, R19, R22, or something similar, and you will pick up much more speed.
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#6611996 - 01/02/17 08:33 AM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
Creedmoor Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/12/16
Posts: 1086
What Chad said.

Or ...

Try a Berger Hunting VLD if you want "massive internal damage". You may or may not get an exit, but I can assure you that the internals will be jello in most cases. And FWIW, that doesn't always result in a quicker kill. I've seen deer run 40-50 yards and when dressed you'd be amazed that they even went 3 feet due to the damage inside.
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#6612021 - 01/02/17 08:51 AM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
scottfromdallas Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 06/23/15
Posts: 471
Loc: TX
What did the lungs look like? Was there extensive damage?

Many people look at a small exit and assume the bullet didn't expand. Skin on a animal is elastic and stretches so most of the time the exit in the hide is small unless the bullet catches bone on the way out (like a rib) to create a large hole. Skinning the animal usually shows a larger hole behind the hide.
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#6612159 - 01/02/17 10:16 AM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
603Country Online   content
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 07/03/12
Posts: 5170
Loc: Central Texas
130 gr Nosler BT over 59 grains of H4831sc (work up to it. Don't start with it) has been my 270 load for over 30 years.

As for lung shots, which is what I do, I blasted two bucks this season, with my 260 and 120 gr Nosler BTs. Both shots were well placed. The first deer made it about 50 yards. Second one left behind a large amount of lung tissue and a massive amount of blood and still went about 50 yards and jumped a fence. Both deer exits left a hole about the size of a big lemon.

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#6612185 - 01/02/17 10:26 AM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
postoak Offline
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 2721
Loc: The Woodlands, Tx
Not sure where you guys got the exit was 2 times bullet diameter as he said exit hole was the same as entry hole. This is indeed not what I would have expected from a Ballistic Tip. Not a big deal, IMO, and probably caused by velocity lower than normal caused by the 200 yard distance and handloads not delivering the velocity as stated on paper.
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#6612369 - 01/02/17 12:06 PM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
RiverRider Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 6567
Loc: Wise Co.
I think Chad's right about the relatively low impact velocity, but in the grand scheme of things there's no magic formula for predicting how far a deer or other animal will or should be able to run when shot in the lungs, or shot in the heart and lungs. Strange and unpredictable things happen.

If I was shooting the .270 / 130-grain combination, I'd be pushing it well north of 3000 fps. There are powders out these days that will surpass the old 3100-fps ideal.
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#6612792 - 01/02/17 04:42 PM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
Adchunts Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 12/03/16
Posts: 91
Loc: New Braunfels, TX
I have double-lunged deer at under 40 yards with a .300 Win Mag shooting 150 grain bullets and had them go further than you describe. As mentioned above, the only sure way to "anchor" a deer is to take out the CNS. They are tough critters. I once witnessed a nice buck get smacked by a Ford Thunderbird at highway speed. Buck got up and ran off. Car was badly damaged. Crazy thing, we never did find the left headlight out of the car. I even went back and looked again the next morning. Assuming the deer carried it off...

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#6612868 - 01/02/17 05:32 PM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
Creedmoor Offline
Pro Tracker

Registered: 09/12/16
Posts: 1086
roflmao
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#6613690 - 01/03/17 01:10 AM Re: Lack of bullet performance [Re: Birdog62]
Birdog62 Offline
Bird Dog

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 453
Thanks for all the replies. I will work up a new load for this bullet and see if I can get it to perform.
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