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Surgeon vs defiance
#6554440
11/22/16 05:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,011
68A
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Piecing together a bolt gun and looking at these two manufacturers for an action, but I have no experience with either. Anyone have some first hand experience you wouldn't mind sharing?
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554485
11/22/16 05:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755
ccoker
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Both are top of the line.. I LOVE my 6.5 with the Defiance Deviant
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554488
11/22/16 05:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,011
68A
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554489
11/22/16 05:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Investigate the extractor design of each.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554508
11/22/16 05:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 15,645
QuitShootinYoungBucks
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https://web.archive.org/web/20170223065011/http:/www.rrdvegas.com/silencer-cleaning.html
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: QuitShootinYoungBucks]
#6554511
11/22/16 05:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,011
68A
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Gonna go a different route.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554514
11/22/16 05:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755
ccoker
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yes it is the McMillan camo I have another one coming, A3 Sporter in McMillan desert camo for a project.. 17" lightweight 7mm08 threaded barrel from McGowen with the action out of a lightweight hunter. Going to be a slick little hunting rifle
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: J.G.]
#6554521
11/22/16 06:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,614
Mfloski
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What are you saying or implying here? I am curious because my BIL has a Defiance and was seeing some brass neck flattening issues. I have a Stiller and like it. the Defiance is definitely a tighter smoother action but its also about 500.00 more! Investigate the extractor design of each.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: Mfloski]
#6554532
11/22/16 06:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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I'm implying, see which one has the better design. Surgeon used to have the thin little clip like extractor as seen in a Rem 700. They may all have an M-16 type extractor.
I'll reserve my comments on a Stiller action for a private conversation.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554547
11/22/16 06:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,011
68A
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Looks like surgeon runs rem style, defiance has m16
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554558
11/22/16 06:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,219
dee
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Imo after playing with both I would go impact precision over those two.
"A vote is like a rifle; it's usefulness depends on the character of the user" Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554567
11/22/16 06:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,755
ccoker
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I would be talking with your rifle builder and go with he feels the best about.. It's his name on the side of the rifle..
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554570
11/22/16 06:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,549
redchevy
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I would like to see a test done with all the custom actions one cares to amass and then the big name mass produced actions, a Winchester, ruger, rem, wby(vanguard and mk5), tikka... etc. All fitted with the same quality barrel with the same quality in craftsmanship and assembly and feed them the same quality of ammo tuned to the gun and see how much difference it makes.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: redchevy]
#6554629
11/22/16 07:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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I would like to see a test done with all the custom actions one cares to amass and then the big name mass produced actions, a Winchester, ruger, rem, wby(vanguard and mk5), tikka... etc. All fitted with the same quality barrel with the same quality in craftsmanship and assembly and feed them the same quality of ammo tuned to the gun and see how much difference it makes. It won't, as far as wich shoots tighter. I've shot lots of small, as well as PRS matches. You'll see every manner of action shoot terrific. The difference in preference of one action to another is bolt throw degrees, extractor, ejector, what triggers it accepts, two or three lug, ect. ect. Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Powerstroke, Duramax, Cummins.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554631
11/22/16 07:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Looks like surgeon runs rem style, defiance has m16 That would sway me one way. Look at Stuteville Precision as well. Wade was a founder of Surgeon, and is now on his own. His have M-16 style extractors.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554636
11/22/16 07:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,959
cxjcherokec
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Redchevy,
I can attest to Ruger M77 S/A, rem 700 S&L/A, stiller tac 30aw, tikka S/A, Defiance S/A, Badger M2013 S/A, surgeon 591 S/A and AI S/A.
Its my opinion that the rem 700 amd ruger m77 have some if the worst "drag" when cycling out of them all, ruger being the slopiest. Tikka is the slickest of the favtory actions. The rem 700 will get slick after its been trued and bolt has been coated. The m77 just feels sloppy but my little compact 260 has never failed and my fav gun to "carry". My dads 700 30-06 LA built in 72 feels great compared to my mid 2000 rem SA (has since been bastardized), but rem of thatvarea were built better. My stiller runs like butter but has some slop. Ive had experience through a fellow shooter with the surgeon and it ran great until it got dirty (mainly sand), you could feel the grit and a few times wouldnt lock up. I had terrible experince with the badger, has the worst bolt lift ive ever felt, had to break my cheek weld over half the time to cycle. The defiance and the AI were the tighest fit with 0 slop but are such different beasts. The factory actions arent anywhere near the tolerances and require so much to eveb come close to having the features of the customs. It coukd be argued cutting a side bolt release into a 700 action weakens it, the ruger has a side bolt release already as well as the tikka. The cool thing on tikkas are that they are all long action and a simple modification of the bolt stop(or expensive new LA bolt stop) converts it to a LA. Yes you need a LA stock, mags etc but it will also allow you to load bergers, warner flat tools etc over mag length and use a LA mag. I have limited time with a savage back in my teens, i bought one for a friends son but never shot it and dont remember much about it to comment on.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554640
11/22/16 07:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,959
cxjcherokec
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And i have 'rolled' 2 rem extractors, although not hard to change, not everyone has them on the shelf. Is a real pita in the field IF you have one with you. Ive since comverted 2 to m16 extractors
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554665
11/22/16 07:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 39,549
redchevy
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I don't much care about bolt lift/throw, how you get the bolt out, how smooth the bolt is etc. What I care about is at the end of the day how do they shoot.
It's hell eatin em live
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: redchevy]
#6554687
11/22/16 07:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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I don't much care about bolt lift/throw, how you get the bolt out, how smooth the bolt is etc. What I care about is at the end of the day how do they shoot. Then buy a great cut rifled barrel, and have a great gunsmith chamber and cut it. After that it's all up to you to shoot well, and make a great load for it. I had a tack driver of a .260 Rem on a cheap ole Savage action. Cycled like crap, and quit ejecting, but it would literally shoot house flies from a hundred yards.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554693
11/22/16 07:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,959
cxjcherokec
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Its a moot point bc any builder can destroy a custom gun just like rem can put out a non shooter. My sons 6.5CM shoots lights out, havent pushed it past 878 yards yet. But the action took over $475 in work on top of the $450 for the donor rifle. Now that Chase will be relasing the Axiom actions for $750 whats the point. Out of them all the Tikka has the best reputation for out of the box accuracy. And bolt lift, throw, action smoothness and triggers all play into accuracy. If you cant cycle it fast enough for a follow up shot in 3 sec (since that was discussed in another thread our "dialing"), than all customs actions will "outshoot" a factory rifle. I know for a fact that my stiller with out cycle my ruger 10/10 times, and that directly relates to accuracy when you break a cheek weld or breathing pattern.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554695
11/22/16 07:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,959
cxjcherokec
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Just like my wife is more accurate with a pistol than I am, but im a better shooter considering it literally takes her close to 20 sec to get a round down range. Is her 1 shot more important or the fact that i can hold a 3" 10rd sting in 20 sec?
Last edited by cxjcherokec; 11/22/16 07:52 PM. Reason: Dang phone posts
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: cxjcherokec]
#6554696
11/22/16 07:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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^^No argument from me^^
Spoken like a true shooter.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554698
11/22/16 07:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,959
cxjcherokec
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: 68A]
#6554701
11/22/16 07:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,959
cxjcherokec
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Accuracy and precision are totally independant of each other and sometimes we forget that.
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Re: Surgeon vs defiance
[Re: cxjcherokec]
#6554702
11/22/16 07:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 41,173
J.G.
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Last one on the last page.
The nicest cycling actions I have are Tikkas. And I can run them extremely fast, which is important WHEN I miss, I can get a correction out, before the wind changes, or the critter moves.
I'm looking forward to Chase getting his actions going, though.
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