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#6549216 - 11/18/16 09:34 AM Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Here is a great video and explanation on expansion of lead bullets, specifically the Berger EOL and VLD-Hunting bullets. The part in the video most important to me is from 1:20 to 1:34. I see this happen most often with the Barnes solid copper bullets. After many years of loading solid copper bullets and many customers disappointed in their performance on game, many are going back to lead bullets, like the Berger hunting bullets or traditional lead bullets. The new EOL line of bullets from Berger so far has been a huge success with many hunters I load for. Game simply doesn't go far, and often drop in their tracks.



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#6549244 - 11/18/16 09:51 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
redchevy Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 23463
Loc: Texas
I agree, never been happy with the on game performance I have gotten with monometal bullets. I do prefer a combo of expansion and retention though, big fan of bonded core or partitioned bullets.
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#6549245 - 11/18/16 09:52 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Yes, I also really like the bonded bullets. The Accubonds and Hornady Interbonds have done well, also.
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#6549300 - 11/18/16 10:23 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
BOBO the Clown Offline
decoy

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 41125
Loc: Metroplex
I like Barnes in small bullets w/hot calibers(22-250,243,257wby, etc). 223 or 308 types not so much.

I shoot a lot of VLD's...hot and VLD bad things happen.

For moderate velocities I'm really liking the ABLR over the VLD, via on game performance

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#6549311 - 11/18/16 10:26 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
redchevy Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 23463
Loc: Texas
I will say I have never shot mono metal out of something like a 22-250 or a 257 wby, I think they would be much better.
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#6549316 - 11/18/16 10:31 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
Bbear Offline
Tracker

Registered: 11/24/13
Posts: 598
Loc: West Texas
+1 on the bonded bullets. I've tried the mono-metals and after losing two deer to complete pass-through shots at >200 yards I've gone to AB's and ABLR for just about everything I have. I will admit that I haven't tried the Bergers much. The one deer I shot with a Berger I lost one shoulder to the damage done by the bullet's expansion.
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#6549342 - 11/18/16 10:48 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 19297
Loc: Corsicana
All depends on the application.

Plain old cup and core bullets are hard to beat for deer sized game. (I have used them on deer for over 40 years and used them on my desert sheep hunt with absolute confidence.) Monometals have always worked well for me on larger animals. Many African PHs swear by them for their clients and some even require them for big plains game. I killed a Stone's sheep with a TSX and will have them in my rifle on an upcoming Dall sheep hunt, but only because grizzly was and is on the menu. But a great compromise is the Nosler AB or tried and true Partition. (Caveat: I am not an ultra LR hunter.)

The Internet will give all sorts of opinions on every bullet out there. The LR community has a love affair with Bergers, but you can probably find as many or more horror stories on them as for any other bullet.

See it all the time, but "dropping in their tracks" or "DRT" is just anecdotal talk when discussing bullet (or caliber) performance. An animal's reaction to the shot has way more to do with placement than any other factor. For example, the most reliable "DRT" shot on deer-sized game is the high shoulder shot. A sufficiently heavy lead bullet traveling fast enough will work well for that shot. OTOH, a ponderously heavy slow-moving lead bullet is not ideal for that shot, nor is a speedy small lead bullet. In smaller calibers a more stout bullet will almost always work better.

I have seen elk "DRT" hit with all different combinations of calibers and bullets. And go a little piece and die in short order with all different combinations.The only elk I saw escape was one shot with a 180 grain lead bullet from a .30-06 that hit the shoulder blade. Either a .300 using that bullet or the .30-06 using an AB, NP, or TSX would have probably filled the larder.

The important factors for bullet performance are achieving sufficient penetration and expansion. If those are met, the animal will die in short order with proper placement. Those factors should always be weighted considering game sought and caliber used.

There's no "one size fits all" answer when it comes to bullet discussion. All factors (caliber, weight, game sought, expected distances, etc.) must be known before even beginning the discussion.
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Originally Posted By: REALKILLER
That's the way I hunt don't know many that do. If a deer gets buy me I will try to run him down. Ive killed a bunch that way.



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#6549348 - 11/18/16 10:54 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
ChadTRG42 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 9433
Loc: Lewisville, TX
Yes, when you get the speeds up North of 3000 fps in the solids, it does help to increase the hydrostatic shock, but still not as much as a lead bullet would. But the bullet does hold together better. The only issue I have seen with the Barnes solids is a large increase in copper fouling which decreases the accuracy in very few rounds. I have seen accuracy fall off in as little as 15 rounds on some fast magnums with speeds 3200+ fps. After we cleaned it, accuracy came back and 15-20 rounds later accuracy was gone again.
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#6549383 - 11/18/16 11:36 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: Nogalus Prairie]
flintknapper Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 02/18/15
Posts: 903
Loc: Deep East Texas
Originally Posted By: Nogalus Prairie
All depends on the application.

Plain old cup and core bullets are hard to beat for deer sized game. (I have used them on deer for over 40 years and used them on my desert sheep hunt with absolute confidence.) Monometals have always worked well for me on larger animals. Many African PHs swear by them for their clients and some even require them for big plains game. I killed a Stone's sheep with a TSX and will have them in my rifle on an upcoming Dall sheep hunt, but only because grizzly was and is on the menu. But a great compromise is the Nosler AB or tried and true Partition. (Caveat: I am not an ultra LR hunter.)

The Internet will give all sorts of opinions on every bullet out there. The LR community has a love affair with Bergers, but you can probably find as many or more horror stories on them as for any other bullet.

See it all the time, but "dropping in their tracks" or "DRT" is just anecdotal talk when discussing bullet (or caliber) performance. An animal's reaction to the shot has way more to do with placement than any other factor. For example, the most reliable "DRT" shot on deer-sized game is the high shoulder shot. A sufficiently heavy lead bullet traveling fast enough will work well for that shot. OTOH, a ponderously heavy slow-moving lead bullet is not ideal for that shot, nor is a speedy small lead bullet. In smaller calibers a more stout bullet will almost always work better.

I have seen elk "DRT" hit with all different combinations of calibers and bullets. And go a little piece and die in short order with all different combinations.The only elk I saw escape was one shot with a 180 grain lead bullet from a .30-06 that hit the shoulder blade. Either a .300 using that bullet or the .30-06 using an AB, NP, or TSX would have probably filled the larder.

The important factors for bullet performance are achieving sufficient penetration and expansion. If those are met, the animal will die in short order with proper placement. Those factors should always be weighted considering game sought and caliber used.

There's no "one size fits all" answer when it comes to bullet discussion. All factors (caliber, weight, game sought, expected distances, etc.) must be known before even beginning the discussion.


^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said. My position as well.
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#6549409 - 11/18/16 11:47 AM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
flintknapper Online   content
Tracker

Registered: 02/18/15
Posts: 903
Loc: Deep East Texas
Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42
Yes, when you get the speeds up North of 3000 fps in the solids, it does help to increase the hydrostatic shock, but still not as much as a lead bullet would. But the bullet does hold together better. The only issue I have seen with the Barnes solids is a large increase in copper fouling which decreases the accuracy in very few rounds. I have seen accuracy fall off in as little as 15 rounds on some fast magnums with speeds 3200+ fps. After we cleaned it, accuracy came back and 15-20 rounds later accuracy was gone again.


"15-20 rounds" (before needing to clean) would equate to 5-7 hunting seasons for a lot of folks. Cleaning your rifles bore seems a small price to pay IF the bullet suits your needs in other areas.

I use both types of bullets and have had good success with each. 'Application' is the key.

I like Berger bullets...but I don't have extensive experience with them. Hard to watch a commercial claiming they are THE bullet anywhere from 50 yds. on out to infinity. wink

Sheeeshhh....the only thing not claimed....was that they give you better gas mileage too.
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#6549457 - 11/18/16 12:12 PM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
Nogalus Prairie Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 19297
Loc: Corsicana
OK just watched the video. It's a commercial is all. "Their bullet is the only one that will penetrate 3-5" and then fragment", "competitors' bullets ALL are designed to pass through without expanding", etc., etc....

Bunch of untruths and oversimplifications. Nothing of real value in it at all.
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Originally Posted By: REALKILLER
That's the way I hunt don't know many that do. If a deer gets buy me I will try to run him down. Ive killed a bunch that way.



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#6549490 - 11/18/16 12:36 PM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
Ag Hunter 78 Offline
Tracker

Registered: 06/04/10
Posts: 876
Loc: Austin, Tx
I am a TTSX convert. I typically used to shoot the Coreloks and occasionally SSTs and Nosler partitions, depending on the caliber. I am patient and wait for shots of 100 yards or less and I go for the upper neck. Been lucky I guess and always had DRT results. I am not into tracking, especially if it's a late afternoon shot. On those occasions where it was over 100, I went for a more-heart-than-lung shot that also made sure I hit at least one shoulder to minimize running. Over 200 yards I held off and it was the deer's lucky day. (Hog or coyote, of course I'll take a long shot!)

The TTSXs are very accurate in my rifles and have done the job every time. I am getting older so I have settled on shots to the lower neck---more area and less chance of a miss if the deer starts to move right when I squeeze off. The good thing is that the TTSX do a lot less meat damage than lead bullets, especially the SSTs. So for my purposes and circumstances, I prefer the copper. Now I need to save my pennies to get a Cooper to shoot the copper.
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#6549511 - 11/18/16 12:47 PM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
redchevy Online   content
THF Celebrity

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 23463
Loc: Texas
I guess we all want something different. A tsx would be my absolute last choice for a neck shooting bullet, shooting in the neck I want something that is going to disrupt... after all you shoot them in the neck because there isn't much meat there.
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#6549561 - 11/18/16 01:30 PM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: ChadTRG42]
RedSnake Online   content
Veteran Tracker

Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 3009
Loc: Dallas / Nolan County
Good stuff. I love the vlds
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#6549599 - 11/18/16 01:54 PM Re: Why I prefer lead bullets over solid copper for hunting [Re: RedSnake]
Deerhunter61 Offline
THF Trophy Hunter

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 5543
Loc: DFW
Originally Posted By: RedSnake
Good stuff. I love the vlds

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